Nothing. It is God who passed judgment on the pagan world. I am just presenting you with Bible truth.
They are without excuse
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Lambano
Well-Known Member
But this section is about pride, not hypocrisy. Should we feel superior to others (especially those outside of God's people when they fail) when we KNOW the universality of sin?
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That is a hard question. Maybe Mr. E can help with it. I’m struggling with your question. Quoting these again, considering what they say myself.
Romans 1:32 Lexicon: and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.
Romans 2:1 Lexicon: Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things.
No I don’t think we should feel superior but have mercy instead of condemnation. In Mercy showing His attributes instead of our own. The only way I can relate is, by what those verses mean to me. How they helped. It helps I think with “do unto others as you would have them do unto you.” If I desire for His attributes to be in others and get frustrated or bitter or hateful or controlling or forceful or condemning and judging for the lack of seeing the attributes of Christ in others that I claim to hope to see, oh how I would be so joyful if Christ be formed in them. Then it occurred to me that I’m not even showing the attributes of Christ that I claim to love and desire so much to be seen in others. If what I desire is relationship restored and better attitudes than those that kills, steal and destroy. Then why am displaying the opposite of the attributes of Christ as if the attributes of a depraved mind, to kill, steal and destroy…brings forth the attributes of Christ. I get that doesn’t make much sense, even to me as I’m trying to sort out why those verses stand out to me…as having no excuse. I’m trying to say if a parent says they wish a child wouldn’t steal but then they steal repeatedly, do they desire the child to come to see it is wrong to steal? No I’m saying the parent should not feel superior but merciful towards the child In acknowledgement of their own thievery.
I’m not comparing myself to a parent but do hear Paul referring to himself as a parent, —a father, a nursemaid…a follower of Christ, an example, for them. Showing them the way, and not just talking about the way. You asked isn’t it about pride and not hypocrisy? I think they go hand -in-hand? Why be hypocritical in excuse of self but judgment of others.. if not for prides sake?
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Another helpful passage on excuses is Luke 14. Which speaks a lot about asking “can I be excused?” Several parables on excuses.
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I guess the biggest thing that stood out was it being said it is only about pagans making excuse to not believe. That isn’t what I hear but twice “they know” …they clearly know in acknowledging to know by condemning others of what is right or wrong, as teachers…not “teachers” saying they are atheist but “teachers” of knowing, judges of what is right and wrong …fully knowing those who do such things lead to death …
“they are without excuse” brings up
James 4:17 Therefore to him that knows to do good, and does it not, to him it is sin.
Does He not say several times “they know” 1)in correcting others but doing what they claim needs correction? 2) they know those things are worthy of death. How similar is James 4:17 Therefore to him that knows to do good, and does it not, to him it is sin. (Having no more excuse) And Romans 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
Just considering it myself, what is to have no excuse.
Waiting on him
Well-Known Member
Maybe the answer is in, who it was in that age that knew the ordinances of God?
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Do see it was written to the Romans. But to me that doesn’t change what His attributes are, the two natures seen from Genesis to Revelation. As in Isaiah 55:7-9 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the Lord, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon. [8] For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. [9] For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
Doesn’t change whether it is spoken to the Jews or the Greeks, to the Romans or the Corinthians, to make or female, to the bond or the free, or in Genesis or in Revelation (Imo) …His thoughts and His ways remain His thoughts and His ways, no? To me Romans speaks of exchanging His attributes for that which is beneath and calling those attributes, His. Or at least that is what I see at the moment…
Johann
Well-Known Member
"is revealed" As the gospel is a revealed truth (Rom. 1:17), so too, the wrath of God! Neither is an act of human discovery or logic.
"who suppress the truth" This referred to human willful rejection, not ignorance (cf. Rom. 1:21,32; John 3:17-21). This phrase can mean
they know the truth but reject it
their lifestyle shows they reject the truth
their lives and/or words cause others not to know and receive the truth
1:19 "that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them" All humans know something of God from creation (cf. Rom. 1:20 and Ps. 19:1-6 through nature). In theology this is called "natural revelation." It is not complete, but it is the basis of God's holding responsible those who have never been exposed to God's "special revelation" in Scripture (cf. Ps. 19:7-14; see notes online) or, ultimately, in Jesus (cf. John 1:14-18; Col. 1:15; 2:9; Heb. 1:1-3).
The term "know" was used in two senses in the NT:
its OT sense of intimate personal relationship (cf. Gen. 4:1; Jer. 1:5)
its Greek sense of facts about a subject (cf. Rom. 1:21)
The gospel is both a Person to be welcomed and a message about that Person to be received and believed! In this verse it was used only in the sense of #2.
1:20 This verse mentions three aspects of God.
His invisible attributes (His character, cf. Col. 1:15; 1 Tim. 1:17; Heb. 11:27)
His eternal power (seen in natural creation, cf. Ps. 19:1-6)
His divine nature (seen in His acts and motives of creation, cf. Genesis 1-2)
"for since the creation of the world" The PREPOSITION apo is used in a temporal sense. A similar phrase is found in Mark 10:6; 13:19; 2 Pet. 3:4. The invisible God is now seen in
physical creation (this verse)
Scripture (Ps. 19, 119)
ultimately in Jesus (cf. John 14:9)
"divine nature" From Greek literature theiotēs could be translated "divine majesty." This is seen supremely in Jesus. He uniquely bears the divine image (cf. 2 Cor. 4:4; Heb. 1:3). He is God's full revelation in human form (Col. 1:19; 2:9). The wonderful truth of the gospel is that fallen mankind, through faith in Christ, will share Christlikeness (cf. Heb. 12:10; 1 John 3:2). The image of God in humanity (cf. Gen. 1:26-27) has been restored (theios, cf. 2 Pet. 1:3-4)!
NASB "have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made"
NKJV "are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made"
NRSV "have been understood and seen through the things he has made"
TEV "have been clearly seen; they are perceived in the things that God has made"
NJB "have been clearly seen by the mind's understanding of created things"
REB "have been visible to the eye of reason, in the things he has made"
Peshitta "have been clearly seen and understood by his creation"
The combination of noeō (cf. Matt. 15:17) and kathoraō (both PRESENT PASSIVE) implies a true perception. God has written two books: (1) nature (cf. Ps. 19:1-6) and (2) Scripture (cf. Ps. 19:7-14). They do not contradict each other. They are both capable of human understanding and demand a response (cf. Wisdom 13:1-9).
"so that they are without excuse" This is literally "no legal defense."
This Greek term (a plus apologeomai) is used only here and in Rom. 2:1 in the NT. Remember the theological purpose of Rom. 1:18-3:20 is to show the spiritual lostness of all mankind. Humans are responsible for the knowledge they do have. God holds humans responsible only for that which they know or could know (cf. Rom. 4:15; 5:13).
1:21 "for even though they knew God" Humans are not progressing religiously. They are progressively evil (cf. Gen. 6:5-7,11-13). Since Genesis 3 humanity has been going downhill. The darkness is increasing!
"they did not honor Him as God, or give thanks" This is the tragedy of pagan idolatry in Rom. 1:23, 24 (cf. Jer. 2:9-13). Believers "glorify" God by Christlike living (cf. Matt. 5:16; Rom. 12:1-2; 1 Cor. 6:20; 10:31; Phil. 1:20; 1 Pet. 4:11). YHWH wants a people who reflect/reveal His character to a fallen, blind world!
Who are the "they?" All humans in a fallen, world-at present.
αὐτοὺς
Transliteration: autous
Morphology: PPro-AM3P
Personal / Possessive Pronoun - Accusative Masculine 3rd Person Plural
Strong's no.: G846 (αὐτός)
Meaning: He, she, it, they, them, same.
ἀναπολογήτους
Transliteration: anapologētous
Morphology: Adj-AMP
Adjective - Accusative Masculine Plural
Strong's no.: G379 (ἀναπολόγητος)
Meaning: Without (ground of) defense, indefensible, inexcusable.
5) "So that they are without excuse," (eis to einai autous anapologetous) "So that they are without (above occasion for) an excuse," the "they" refers to Jews, Gentiles, Grecians, and barbarians, wise and unwise, the cultured and profane are without an excuse for a knowledge of God, sin, righteousness, wrath, and offered mercy and salvation, as revealed to Adam and Eve, to Noah, and to Lot and their families. Heb_1:1-3.
Johann.
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Are you suggesting His attributes are clearly seen having been made manifest? What are His attributes?
Johann
Well-Known Member
Reread my post-and do look up the Scripture references.
I just posted it, and a second later this is what you ask-you have not read the post.
Thanks
Johann.
How do I answer this without taking the conversation far from your original questions about that letter to the Romans? Yes, Solomon was gifted with rare intelligence. The text says- God gave Solomon wisdom and very great discernment; the breadth of his understanding was as infinite as the sand on the seashore. Solomon was wiser than all the men of the east and all the sages of Egypt. He was wiser than any man, including Ethan the Ezrahite or Heman, Calcol, and Darda, the sons of Mahol. He was famous in all the neighboring nations. He composed 3,000 proverbs and 1,005 songs. He produced manuals on botany, describing every kind of plant, from the cedars of Lebanon to the hyssop that grows on walls. He also produced manuals on biology, describing animals, birds, insects, and fish. People from all nations came to hear Solomon’s display of wisdom; they came from all the kings of the earth who heard about his wisdom.
All of this speaks of God-given earthly wisdom. If we were to go back and consider what I said earlier regarding the distinction between earthly and heavenly things, the principle holds true in that if something is true above, (spiritually) it is also true below (physically) in some manner, remembering that things below are but a likeness, of those things above.
In spirit--in the heavenly, or divine sense, God gives Solomon great wisdom. That translates to great knowledge below-- this earthly wisdom I'm referencing- as recorded in scripture. But as far as a relationship with God goes? Scripture says that God appeared to him on only two occasions. Once, we are told conclusively- was in a dream, which is another way of saying in spirit-- because God is spirit and the only way He is 'seen' is if He lifts you up in spirit and in this way you 'see' what is invisible. (What Paul calls God's invisible attributes)
But yes-- Solomon was smart. Intellectually gifted. That didn't make him 'without excuse' when it comes to spiritual matters, which is what Paul is referencing.... He should have known. He was shown.... but in this area- he didn't do the math. We read---
The LORD was angry with Solomon because he had shifted his allegiance away from the LORD, the God of Israel, who had appeared to him on two occasions and had warned him about this very thing, so that he would not follow other gods.
The king went to Gibeon to offer sacrifices, for it had the most prominent of the high places. Solomon would offer up 1,000 burnt sacrifices on the altar there. One night in Gibeon the LORD appeared to Solomon in a dream.
Solomon then woke up and realized it was a dream.
The other occasion where God appeared to Solomon doesn't mention specifically that it was in a dream. It doesn't need to. We know it was also in a dream, because we know that dreams (in spirit) are the only places where God is going to be speaking directly to you. It's how God communicates with his prophets-- through messengers (angels) in spirit to and through spirit. It says that God appeared to him 'the same way' he had appeared to him before. The text says--
After Solomon finished building the LORD’s temple, the royal palace, and all the other construction projects he had planned, the LORD appeared to Solomon a second time, in the same way he had appeared to him at Gibeon.The LORD said to him, “I have answered your prayer and your request for help that you made to me. I have consecrated this temple you built by making it my permanent home; I will be constantly present there. You must serve me with integrity and sincerity, just as your father David did. Do everything I commanded and obey my rules and regulations. Then I will allow your dynasty to rule over Israel permanently, just as I promised your father David, ‘You will not fail to have a successor on the throne of Israel.’
“But if you or your sons ever turn away from me, fail to obey the regulations and rules I instructed you to keep, and decide to serve and worship other gods, then I will remove Israel from the land I have given them, I will abandon this temple I have consecrated with my presence, and Israel will be mocked and ridiculed among all the nations. This temple will become a heap of ruins; everyone who passes by it will be shocked and will hiss out their scorn, saying, ‘Why did the LORD do this to this land and this temple?’ Others will then answer, ‘Because they abandoned the LORD their God, who led their ancestors out of Egypt. They embraced other gods whom they worshiped and served. That is why the LORD has brought all this disaster down on them.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
You ask: "Then the question becomes, how can God hold us morally accountable for our sinful actions when He's the one who imprisoned us in "unfit minds" (verse 28)?
And yet it says we are without excuse."
Simple = the answer was already given
"The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness. For what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from His workmanship, so that men are without excuse."
Johann
Well-Known Member
The invisible things of him (ta aorata autou). Another verbal adjective (a privative and horaō, to see), old word, either unseen or invisible as here and elsewhere in N.T. (Col_1:15., etc.). The attributes of God’s nature defined here as “his everlasting power and divinity” (hē te aidios autou dunamis kai theiotēs).
Aidios is for aeidios from aei (always), old word, in N.T. only here and Jud_1:6, common in Philo (zōē aidios), elsewhere aiōnios. Theiotēs is from theios (from theos) quality of theos and corresponds more to Latin divinitas from divus, divine. In Col_2:9 Paul uses theotēs (Latin deitas from deus) deity, both old words and nowhere else in the N.T. Theotēs is Divine Personality, theiotēs, Divine Nature and properties (Sanday and Headlam).
Since the creation of the world (apo ktiseōs kosmou). He means by God and unto God as antecedent to and superior to the world (cf. Col_1:15. about Christ).
Are clearly seen (kathoratai). Present passive indicative of kathoraō (perfective use of katȧ), old word, only here in N.T., with direct reference to aorata.
Being perceived (nooumena). Present passive participle of noeō, to use the nous (intellect).
That they may be without excuse (eis to einai autous anapologētous). More likely, “so that they are without excuse.” The use of eis to and the infinitive (with accusative of general reference) for result like hōste is reasonably clear in the N.T. (Moulton, Prolegomena, p. 219; Robertson, Grammar, p. 1003). Anapologētous is another verbal with an from apologeomai. Old word, in N.T. only here and Rom_2:1 (“inexcusable” here).
RWP
The invisible things of Him
The attributes which constitute God's nature, afterward defined as “His eternal power and divinity.”
From the creation (ἀπό)
From the time of. Rev., since.
Are clearly seen (καθορᾶται)
We have here an oxymoron, literally a pointedly foolish saying; a saying which is impressive or witty through sheer contradiction or paradox. Invisible things are clearly visible. See on Act_5:41. Illustrations are sometimes furnished by single words, as γλυκύπικρος bittersweet; θρασύδειλος a bold coward. In English compare Shakespeare:
“Dove-feathered raven, fiend angelical;
Beautiful tyrant, wolfish-ravening lamb.”
Spenser:
“Glad of such luck, the luckless lucky maid.”
Godhead (θειότης)
Rev., better, divinity. Godhead expresses deity (θεότης). θειότης is godhood, not godhead. It signifies the sum-total of the divine attributes.
So that they are (εἰς τὸ εἶναι)
The A.V. expresses result; but the sense is rather purpose. The revelation of God's power and divinity is given, so that, if, after being enlightened, they fall into sin, they may be without defense.
Without excuse (ἀναπολογήτους)
See on answer, 1Pe_3:15. Only here and Rom_2:1.
MV.
from the creation of the world are clearly seen; this is no new discovery, but what men have had, and might, by the light of nature, have enjoyed ever since the world was created; these
being understood, in an intellectual way, by the discursive faculty of the understanding,
by the things that are made; the various works of creation; all which proclaim the being, unity, and perfections of God their Creator,
so that they are without excuse;
the very Heathens, who have only the light of nature, and are destitute of a revelation, have no colour or pretext for their idolatrous practices, and vicious lives; nor have they, nor will they have anything to object to God's righteous judgment against them, or why they should not be condemned.
Gill
καθορᾶται
Transliteration: kathoratai
Morphology: V-PIM/P-3S
Verb - Present Indicative Middle or Passive - 3rd Person Singular
Strong's no.: G2529 (καθοράω)
Meaning: To see clearly, perceive, discern.
What is clearly perceived-? Note the Present-by the things that was MADE-
For the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made-, even His eternal power and Godhead; to the end of their being they are without excuse:
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified Him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their reasonings, and their foolish heart was darkened.
1:22 Saying that they were wise, they were fooled by their perverted minds,
Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into a likeness of an image of corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Hope this answers your question.
Johann.
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That is a helpful. Thank you. I don’t know how to quite say what I mean. I wasn’t meaning draw attention away from Romans by Solomon teachings of as you brought up earthly things. What are the songs and proverbs? Are they parables? Are the songs and proverbs earthly things or spiritual things? Get (I think if I understand you correctly) people came to hear Solomons wisdom of earthly things. Then with Christ also people came to hear the Wisdom of Christ pertaining to Heavenly things. Telling them not of earthly things but of Spiritual things. Jesus also spoke in parables of earthly things speaking of soil and seed, stones and fowls and catching away what was sown…natural birth and Spiritual birth. I guess what I am asking is does Solomon penning songs and proverbs only speak of earthly things? As does his wisdom of trees…botany…animals and creeping things?
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Revisiting your question. Is it your question or did you mean overall that question is asked by people? In thinking about it: He is the one who imprisoned us in “unfit minds” …personally I don’t think he imprisoned us in unfit minds…instead the spirit of the world imprisoned us to it while He wants to free us from it. because of they exchanged His attributes to me says they imprisoned themselves or we imprisoned ourselves to the unfit mind. He instead wants us to be let out of the imprisoned mind , His giving not the spirit of fear unto bondage that the world gives, but the Spirit He gives is of power, of love and of a sound mind. Giving them over to the depraved mind to me is Gods desire to free them from imprisonment by giving them up and over to the desires of the “unfit mind” that they may be taught and learn it fails.
Exchanging His attributes (that which is sound) for something else (unfit)?
Great line of inquiry VIJ. The nature of parables is that there are a pair of meanings.... parallel meanings. One pertains to earthly things, and the meaning is plain and obvious. It can be taken at face value. The other understanding is spiritual, and one has to employ spiritual principles in order to connect those plain, earthly, physical elements of the story and associate them with things above-- the heavenly, divine, or spiritual meaning. It's interesting that Jesus chose to speak in this way, and doing so he referenced Isaiah, quoting him where he said he speaks in parable for a purpose...
By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
We might ask-- 'Wouldn't Jesus want them to see, hear, understand, turn and be healed?'
Yes, of course. But it's not his responsibility to make them. So he speaks in simple stories that anyone can understand and he only reveals the hidden, secret, spiritual understanding to the seekers. He makes it clear that there are two meanings, and that he is revealing things not understood, or long-forgotten.
But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
What of Solomon? Solomon speaks volumes regarding all those things he understands. But he doesn't make the connection between things below and things above. He spends seven years building an earthly temple according to the plans his Dad gave him-- having no awareness of the heavenly, spiritual temple where God dwells-- one not made with human hands. He sacrifices thousands upon thousands of bulls and sheep- thinking he is pleasing God by doing so, and ignoring one of those songs you ask about, that his father wrote--
Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.
Those songs (psalms), hymns and spiritual songs are special. We call it 'inspiration' when a musician writes songs and puts words to music. It's a mystical thing, but the in-spirit-ation makes associations for us in ways we often don't even perceive with our natural minds, but the spirit within us understands. A song can be entirely secular.... without any spiritual intent whatsoever. Solomon can write about the birds and the bees and imply nothing else beyond biological information. But the spirit hears a love song.
Have you ever heard this spiritual song? Oh sure.... he calls them "aliens" and I know them as "Watchers" but-- same same.
There is a plain (silly) understanding.... and then there is spiritual truth. Does it speak to you from inside? Or do you get stuck on the silly part-- seeing but not perceiving, hearing but not understanding?
What if aliens are real, and they live a trillion years
And they've watched every single one of us since birth
What if aliens exist, as an endless consciousness
And for fun they watch a TV show called Earth
There's a bunch of different storylines, the moral isn't clear
And it feels like the writing's gone downhill in the last year
And everyone's a hero painted in the proper light
And the show's in multicolor though it acts so black and white
In its 100 millionth season for what it's worth
A TV show called Earth
As we gaze out into space, they're a few feet from our face
Eating popcorn, drinking soda with their friends
Though to us, it might seem cruel, how they keep a betting pool
On the way the human storyline will end
'Cause everyone's a villain who just looks out for their own
And be careful picking favorites, 'cause they all end up as bones
And the ensemble is pretty good, the leads all mostly suck
And recently they've trashed the set to make a couple bucks
And a plot like that has not been seen before
They might only have a couple seasons more
And when the show is done, by war or storm or sun
I wonder what they want to watch again
Or grow bored with what what we do, and move on to something new
Saying, "Earth was decent, seven out of ten"
"I liked the dancing and the music and and the sea foam on the shore
I wish the writers had been kind enough to sprinkle that in more
'Cause the war bits and the poverty, I wasn't a fan of
But I really dug on all the parts where humans fell in love"
See they've watched us from our primordial dawn
Until the very last one of us was gone
And one turns to the other with the clicker in his hand and says
"That was fun, let's see what else is on"
There is a plain (silly) understanding.... and then there is spiritual truth. Does it speak to you from inside? Or do you get stuck on the silly part-- seeing but not perceiving, hearing but not understanding?
What if aliens are real, and they live a trillion years
And they've watched every single one of us since birth
What if aliens exist, as an endless consciousness
And for fun they watch a TV show called Earth
There's a bunch of different storylines, the moral isn't clear
And it feels like the writing's gone downhill in the last year
And everyone's a hero painted in the proper light
And the show's in multicolor though it acts so black and white
In its 100 millionth season for what it's worth
A TV show called Earth
As we gaze out into space, they're a few feet from our face
Eating popcorn, drinking soda with their friends
Though to us, it might seem cruel, how they keep a betting pool
On the way the human storyline will end
'Cause everyone's a villain who just looks out for their own
And be careful picking favorites, 'cause they all end up as bones
And the ensemble is pretty good, the leads all mostly suck
And recently they've trashed the set to make a couple bucks
And a plot like that has not been seen before
They might only have a couple seasons more
And when the show is done, by war or storm or sun
I wonder what they want to watch again
Or grow bored with what what we do, and move on to something new
Saying, "Earth was decent, seven out of ten"
"I liked the dancing and the music and and the sea foam on the shore
I wish the writers had been kind enough to sprinkle that in more
'Cause the war bits and the poverty, I wasn't a fan of
But I really dug on all the parts where humans fell in love"
See they've watched us from our primordial dawn
Until the very last one of us was gone
And one turns to the other with the clicker in his hand and says
"That was fun, let's see what else is on"
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David in NJ
Well-Known Member
song lyrics = "aliens exist as a endless consciousness"
i hope you are not 'in tune' with this...........
What if I said-- 'the divine' or "Angels and Demons" or spiritual beings, or children of God-- heavenly agents and fallen ones....?
Don't get stuck. Nah nah naaaaah...... nah nah nah.....
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