They are without excuse

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Enoch111

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Not exchanging His Glory for an image made like corruptible man which is born first, but that which is born Last exchanging the image of the corruptible for that which is incorruptible?
Why not try to keep things simple? That passage is clearly telling us that idolaters prefer to make idols rather than worship the invisible and true God. And the idols take the form of all kinds of creatures, including man.

This passage does not refer to the "host of heaven" (as do other passages) but the planets and the stars were also made into gods and goddesses. Thus you have Saturn, Venus, Neptune, Pluto, Jupiter, Uranus, and Mars. The sun and the moon have also been worshipped since the Tower of Babel.

So when you examine idolatry worldwide you will see that there are all kinds of gods and goddesses, including some which actually combine human and animal attributes. The idols of Egypt are good examples. Dogs, cats, jackals, owls, falcons, hawks, cows, baboons, are all represented. Imagine human beings worshipping these creatures.

Every ancient civilization was steeped in idolatry, but today almost every nation is also steeped in idolatry. The idol of Climate Change activists is "Mother Earth" therefore they are willing to depopulate the planet for the sake of "Mother Earth". Can you imagine the stupidity. But God says that when they turned to idols they became stupid, and then became sexual perverts. And that is what we are seeing right now.
 

VictoryinJesus

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Why not try to keep things simple? That passage is clearly telling us that idolaters prefer to make idols rather than worship the invisible and true God. And the idols take the form of all kinds of creatures, including man.

This passage does not refer to the "host of heaven" (as do other passages) but the planets and the stars were also made into gods and goddesses. Thus you have Saturn, Venus, Neptune, Pluto, Jupiter, Uranus, and Mars. The sun and the moon have also been worshipped since the Tower of Babel.

So when you examine idolatry worldwide you will see that there are all kinds of gods and goddesses, including some which actually combine human and animal attributes. The idols of Egypt are good examples. Dogs, cats, jackals, owls, falcons, hawks, cows, baboons, are all represented. Imagine human beings worshipping these creatures.

Every ancient civilization was steeped in idolatry, but today almost every nation is also steeped in idolatry. The idol of Climate Change activists is "Mother Earth" therefore they are willing to depopulate the planet for the sake of "Mother Earth". Can you imagine the stupidity. But God says that when they turned to idols they became stupid, and then became sexual perverts. And that is what we are seeing right now.
You said to try to keep it simple.
In evil be infants
Malice Romans 1:20: For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

To me malice, evil; is all the attributes listed as exchanging the incorruptible attributes of God for an image of the corruptible attributes of man, animals, and creeping things. He lists those attributes pertaining not to Life but to death: a cloak of malice. Evil. Even calling it demonic. To me that they judge others and do what they condemn others as doing is malice. It isn’t truth but truth suppressed, truth held in unrighteousness …condemning others while suppressing the truth that you do the same. It is blind no? I get you’ll hate and think it’s silly my example but I was watching a show, a silly show but to me there was something so profound in a truth it exposed. A group was ridiculing a girl. The main guy calling her a cow, beady-eyed, stumpy legged and the group kept on tearing her apart. Mocking her facial expressions. She is hiding near by and hears their mocking her. Her friend hiding with her in the bushes stands up and shouts at the main guy, his name and then “retard”. He swerves around seeing nobody, he gets angry offended shouting “you said that?! How dare you criticize me!” —silly but true Imo. The way it goes. Silly but that is what I hear in that verse also…their railing of accusation and condemnation and doing the same of what they accuse others of… is hypocrisy, and by their own doings “suppressing the truth” ”they have no excuse”. We can accuse “no that is worshipping of Buddha idols” but Paul spoke of how we know the idol is nothing, and instead his focus (led by the Spirit of God and incorruptible attributes of God, he turned toward the brother who didn’t know the idol was nothing. And tended to the brother who was weaker. We can say this was to the Romans only but the whole of God’s word speaks of malice and hypocrisy and doing unto others as you would have them do unto you. Warning against evil of destroying your brother whom is weaker. If you want condemnation and death then do that to others and have no excuse …don’t be shocked or surprised or playing dumb…when you receive the same …is what I hear. Don’t play dumb when He has shown His incorruptible attributes …and pretend to have excuse against what His incorruptible attributes are. If that isn’t universal encompassing from Genesis to Revelation…then I am reading the Word wrong….which by the way says
2 Timothy 3:16-17 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: [17] That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Not profitable for doctrine of evil and malice and His incorruptible attributes exchanged for the image of the corruptible…but all the Word is profitable…God given…God given all things pertaining to Life which “instruction” in His incorruptible attributes, which His incorruptible attributes is His Righteousness.
 
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Mr E

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I also think it is relevant for today as well.

Do you understand why it is relevant today? If we can wrap our heads around the idea that this is a spiritual concept and speaking of the spiritual reality, it makes more sense. That the ones spoken of are spiritual beings, not earthly men-- and that those heavenly spirits were the "they" who knew God were the ones that exchanged divine glory for mortal flesh-images, and fell from grace. IF we can understand that basic concept it helps us understand our world today, knowing it is a reflection of things above, where these spiritual battles took place.

The ones who know the truth become the worst of deceivers when they then suppress that truth and in so doing they lead others away.

Jesus identified them. But let me ask you pointedly..... did those scribes and Pharisees, those experts in the law--did they know God? Did they really? They certainly thought they did, but Jesus made it clear they did not. He pointed them out as deceived, and he recognized them also as deceivers themselves, because they were so deceived. He referred to it all as the blind leading the blind. --And worse than that.

In pointing to this same heavenly/spiritual reality above being reflected in all below, he said of them---

You people are from your father the devil, and you want to do what your father desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not uphold the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he lies, he speaks according to his own nature because he is a liar and the father of lies. But because I am telling you the truth, you do not believe me.

It can't be stated much more clearly than that. They follow lies because they have a different father. He is speaking of the spiritual reality where these people are not of Abraham's seed, but are children of the devil (of his seed/weed) and it's in the spiritual sense that they are the soil that has been taken over, and truth stunted and choked out within them by the works of the devil himself. Sure, they thought they knew the truth, but they did not. They were 'under the influence' of a different spiritual father--- the enemy of Christ, the sower. And those sent of behalf of the Liar---- those spirits? "They" were ones who at one time knew God, and who knew the truth, but suppressed that truth influencing those 'religious leaders' -- unwitting fools, below.
 

VictoryinJesus

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Do you understand why it is relevant today? If we can wrap our heads around the idea that this is a spiritual concept and speaking of the spiritual reality, it makes more sense. That the ones spoken of are spiritual beings, not earthly men-- and that those heavenly spirits were the "they" who knew God were the ones that exchanged divine glory for mortal flesh-images, and fell from grace. IF we can understand that basic concept it helps us understand our world today, knowing it is a reflection of things above, where these spiritual battles took place.

The ones who know the truth become the worst of deceivers when they then suppress that truth and in so doing they lead others away.

Jesus identified them. But let me ask you pointedly..... did those scribes and Pharisees, those experts in the law--did they know God? Did they really? They certainly thought they did, but Jesus made it clear they did not. He pointed them out as deceived, and he recognized them also as deceivers themselves, because they were so deceived. He referred to it all as the blind leading the blind. --And worse than that.

In pointing to this same heavenly/spiritual reality above being reflected in all below, he said of them---

You people are from your father the devil, and you want to do what your father desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not uphold the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he lies, he speaks according to his own nature because he is a liar and the father of lies. But because I am telling you the truth, you do not believe me.

It can't be stated much more clearly than that. They follow lies because they have a different father. He is speaking of the spiritual reality where these people are not of Abraham's seed, but are children of the devil (of his seed/weed) and it's in the spiritual sense that they are the soil that has been taken over, and truth stunted and choked out within them by the works of the devil himself. Sure, they thought they knew the truth, but they did not. They were 'under the influence' of a different spiritual father--- the enemy of Christ, the sower. And those sent of behalf of the Liar---- those spirits? "They" were ones who at one time knew God, and who knew the truth, but suppressed that truth influencing those 'religious leaders' -- unwitting fools, below.
So many questions though. Maybe pointless ones and I’m in no way saying this is correct but giving you insight to why I’m struggling with this.

1) is He came to save what was lost. Wouldn’t that be that which had fallen? Another thought about the war in heaven and they knew Him but exchanged His Divine Glory for flesh. Reminds of the son who sold all his wealth eating pig husk (I’m not sure if that is what it says but how far he’d sunk) returning to the Father. Weird and I’ve never understood the one son who pouts and is told of the other son “you have always been with me” but “rejoice that your brother has returned”

2) I’ve considered born again is first you must come down from God, where only he who comes down taking not the seat of honor but the lower seat(humbled), only then can he be instructed to come up higher. I did look at the passage in Isaiah that you referenced concerning the war. It speaks of boasting I’ll ascend high above God but the reply is being plunged into the depths of the lowest?
 

VictoryinJesus

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worshipped since the Tower of Babel.

So when you examine idolatry worldwide you will see that there are all kinds of gods and goddesses, including some which actually combine human and animal attributes. The idols of Egypt are good examples. Dogs, cats, jackals, owls, falcons, hawks, cows, baboons, are all represented. Imagine human beings worshipping these creatures.

Every ancient civilization was steeped in idolatry, but today almost every nation is also steeped in idolatry. The idol of Climate Change activists is "Mother Earth" therefore they are willing to depopulate the planet for the sake of "Mother Earth". Can you imagine the stupidity. But God says that when they turned to idols they became stupid, and then became sexual perverts. And that is what we are seeing right now.
By your own judgment against all the above I could tell you how, you have no excuse. How you suppress and hold the truth in unrighteousness. But will it offend you? If I shared it with you? I mean I’ve been here for years and have had conversations with you on the board, would you even accept the help or consider it hogwash without even considering it?
 

Mr E

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So many questions though. Maybe pointless ones and I’m in no way saying this is correct but giving you insight to why I’m struggling with this.

1) is He came to save what was lost. Wouldn’t that be that which had fallen? Another thought about the war in heaven and they knew Him but exchanged His Divine Glory for flesh. Reminds of the son who sold all his wealth eating pig husk (I’m not sure if that is what it says but how far he’d sunk) returning to the Father. Weird and I’ve never understood the one son who pouts and is told of the other son “you have always been with me” but “rejoice that your brother has returned”

2) I’ve considered born again is first you must come down from God, where only he who comes down taking not the seat of honor but the lower seat(humbled), only then can he be instructed to come up higher. I did look at the passage in Isaiah that you referenced concerning the war. It speaks of boasting I’ll ascend high above God but the reply is being plunged into the depths of the lowest?

Yes... in a nutshell. It's a different way of considering things, from a 30,000 foot (or higher) level. Consider this-- he left his home on high... his heavenly home, his throne in glory.... to descend to earth.

Who did?

The standard, orthodox, rather pat answer is Jesus of course, and in a sense that's true, but in the truest sense- Jesus was born here. Born a babe, in the natural way all mankind is born. The one who descended was not some baby, not physical, and did not have it's beginning on earth, but is from above. He left his wealth and position and power and home and descended into poverty, the abode of the dead (earth) and what some recognize as this prison planet and he led captives out of their captivity. All this in a spiritual sense.

By all means, consider that story of the two brothers. Can you see Jesus in either of them?
 

VictoryinJesus

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By all means, consider that story of the two brothers. Can you see Jesus in either of them?
That is a tough question. One wasted all his wealth on riotous living, the other angry and jealous of the younger sons return.

I don’t know if I see Jesus in either son. The son I would say I see Christ in is the younger son.
He squandered his estate with loose living. (But Did Christ squandered his estate with loose living?) When he had spent everything he became hungry. So he hired himself out where they sent him into the fields to feed swine. And he would have gladly filled his stomach with the pods of the swine but nobody gave unto him anything.(didn’t satan try though to get him to eat while he was fasting and hungry?) I know what I will do I will go to my father and tell him I have sinned against him and heaven in your sight. (Did Christ sin against His Father in the Fathers sight?) I am no longer worthy to be called a son, make me one of your hired men. (Make me a hireling?) (a hireling doesn’t care about the sheep but leaves them, Jesus Christ said He was the Good Shepherd and the Father loves Him because He is no hireling but The Son which cares for the sheep) the father had compassion on him and told his slaves “quickly” bring out the best rob and put it on him.

I see Christ the most in “bring out the best robe and put it on him” His being the best robe given of the Father. As in “put on the New Man” where Jesus Christ said He came from the Father and returned to the Father. I don’t think His coming from the Father was to waste but to restore, replenish, revive .. The Best Robe; the New Man to me is where I see most Jesus Christ being that “brought out” of the Father, given that “Best Robe” and quickly “put it on him”.

Again, the Divine attributes, the Divine Nature of the Father being the Best Robe? The New Man. Put on Christ, seek after these things, if these attributes be in you and are increasing they make you not barren, nor unfruitful. No? What about the son who wasted his estate on rioting and loose living, who says I have sinned against you father and am not worthy to be called a son. What does it profit this son the compassion of the Father to dress him in being out and clothe him in the Best Robe?
 
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VictoryinJesus

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Of course it will offend me. You are making a BASELESS and WILD accusation which is extremely offensive.
How do you know it is baseless and wild when you don’t even care to consider why I would suggest such a thing? I get it though. Even if it is baseless and wild accusations that you could surely get a laugh over at how ridiculous it is, you prefer to not read baseless and wild accusations so I’ll drop it. I was undecided anyways if it would help or harm.
 

Mr E

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That is a tough question. One wasted all his wealth on riotous living, the other angry and jealous of the younger sons return.

I don’t know if I see Jesus in either son. The son I would say I see Christ in is the younger son.
He squandered his estate with loose living. (But Did Christ squandered his estate with loose living?) When he had spent everything he became hungry. So he hired himself out where they sent him into the fields to feed swine. And he would have gladly filled his stomach with the pods of the swine but nobody gave unto him anything.(didn’t satan try though to get him to eat while he was fasting and hungry?) I know what I will do I will go to my father and tell him I have sinned against him and heaven in your sight. (Did Christ sin against His Father in the Fathers sight?) I am no longer worthy to be called a son, make me one of your hired men. (Make me a hireling?) (a hireling doesn’t care about the sheep but leaves them, Jesus Christ said He was the Good Shepherd and the Father loves Him because He is no hireling but The Son which cares for the sheep) the father had compassion on him and told his slaves “quickly” bring out the best rob and put it on him.

I see Christ the most in “bring out the best robe and put it on him” His being the best robe given of the Father. As in “put on the New Man” where Jesus Christ said He came from the Father and returned to the Father. I don’t think His coming from the Father was to waste but to restore, replenish, revive .. The Best Robe; the New Man to me is where I see most Jesus Christ being that “brought out” of the Father, given that “Best Robe” and quickly “put it on him”.

Again, the Divine attributes, the Divine Nature of the Father being the Best Robe? The New Man. Put on Christ, seek after these things, if these attributes be in you and are increasing they make you not barren, nor unfruitful. No? What about the son who wasted his estate on rioting and loose living, who says I have sinned against you father and am not worthy to be called a son. What does it profit this son the compassion of the Father to dress him in being out and clothe him in the Best Robe?

Think it through. When he told stories (parables) there were always two meanings. Consider them one at a time.

From a heavenly perspective, the father is the Father (I know… thank you Captain Obvious).
So, doing the math— the Father is God, who is the son of God?

Do we know where Jesus was or what he was doing from around the age of 12 to around 28 or 30?
Do we really? Did he make up stories without purpose?
 

VictoryinJesus

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Think it through. When he told stories (parables) there were always two meanings. Consider them one at a time.

From a heavenly perspective, the father is the Father (I know… thank you Captain Obvious).
So, doing the math— the Father is God, who is the son of God?

Do we know where Jesus was or what he was doing from around the age of 12 to around 28?

Do we really? Did he make up stories without purpose?
Good questions. I don’t know. What do you think he was doing around age 12 to around 28. I can’t remember if I read it or someone told me before that at a young age he disappeared and his parents found him in the temple saying he had to be about his father’s business. I know that is in the word…but I don’t know if it tells his age then?
 

Mr E

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Good questions. I don’t know. What do you think he was doing around age 12 to around 28. I can’t remember if I read it or someone told me before that at a young age he disappeared and his parents found him in the temple saying he had to be about his father’s business. I know that is in the word…but I don’t know if it tells his age then?

That was the last story we have of his doings and whereabouts until he reappears as a grown man and John points him out- Behold the lamb of God.
 

VictoryinJesus

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That was the last story we have of his doings and whereabouts until he reappears as a grown man and John points him out- Behold the lamb of God.
How will we ever know what he was doing in that span —gap—of time when it is left out?
 

Mr E

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How will we ever know what he was doing in that span —gap—of time when it is left out?

Well… for one thing, we have this story he tells where we clearly identify the Father. Should we dismiss the son in that same story and pretend he’s unidentifiable?
 

VictoryinJesus

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Well… for one thing, we have this story he tells where we clearly identify the Father. Should we dismiss the son in that same story and pretend he’s unidentifiable?
So he is younger one?
 

Mr E

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From a spiritual perspective, who left the Father’s estate?
 

VictoryinJesus

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From a spiritual perspective, who left the Father’s estate?
I honestly don’t know what you want me to see. Are you proving Jesus left the Father’s estate. Or pointing in the direction of
Jude 1:6-7 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. [7] Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Confused…
 
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