They are without excuse

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VictoryinJesus

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I thought this was a really good study .....
thank you. That is a lot to listen to. I haven’t started yet. I like John MacArthur. Always have. I use to listen to him all the time, but maybe I’m judgmental because I started to question a lot of what I heard him teach. I messaged him one time about some conflict he was in with others in the church accusing him and his going to court to prove the accusations against him was wrong. I wanted to ask him about
1 Corinthians 6:6-8 But brother goes to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers. [7] Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because you go to law one with another. Why do you not rather take wrong? why do you not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded? [8] Nay, you do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren.
I truly just wanted to ask how he saw why don’t you suffer the wrong and allow yourself to be defrauded. Because (Imo) Paul did this often, suffered being defrauded so that they could learn by his not defrauding brothers…therefore proving they were wrong. but as mentioned here on this thread concerning motive…Paul’s motive (Imo)being the end result of their “do no wrong” against your brother. I didn’t get a reply from John MacArthur. Not saying I don’t like him. But I started listening less (to a lot of preaching) and reading the word alone more.
 

Ronald David Bruno

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thank you. That is a lot to listen to. I haven’t started yet. I like John MacArthur. Always have. I use to listen to him all the time, but maybe I’m judgmental because I started to question a lot of what I heard him teach. I messaged him one time about some conflict he was in with others in the church accusing him and his going to court to prove the accusations against him was wrong. I wanted to ask him about
1 Corinthians 6:6-8 But brother goes to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers. [7] Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because you go to law one with another. Why do you not rather take wrong? why do you not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded? [8] Nay, you do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren.
I truly just wanted to ask how he saw why don’t you suffer the wrong and allow yourself to be defrauded. Because (Imo) Paul did this often, suffered being defrauded so that they could learn by his not defrauding brothers…therefore proving they were wrong. but as mentioned here on this thread concerning motive…Paul’s motive (Imo)being the end result of their “do no wrong” against your brother. I didn’t get a reply from John MacArthur. Not saying I don’t like him. But I started listening less (to a lot of preaching) and reading the word alone more.
I quote John MacArthur all the time, a great teacher. But I too have disagreements only with some of his teaching and style.
A couple are: He believes that spiritual gifts stopped in the1st Century. That is wrong!
He also admitted to being a 5-point Calvinist. I can't abide with that.
Also, his disposition is that of a hard , cold teacher. I don't see the joy of the Lord in Him, he is so serious.
His eschatology is not fulproof ... Nor is anyone else's; but he teaches with this matter-of-fact, high minded authority on it.
My Pastor is spiritually gifted, has the joy of the Lord and you sense his love for his church. MacArthur again, is a great teacher ... who maybe should have just taught in the Seminary. A Pastor should have a loving, warm, joy of the Lord disposition - just my two cents.
 

VictoryinJesus

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Nor is anyone else's; but he teaches with this matter-of-fact, high minded authority on it.
Could see much of what you pointed out. He genuinely seems nice like someone you would want to invite to dinner …but I also noticed “matter -of-fact, high minded authority on it.” I’m not picking on him as you suggested he is human. But sometimes the high minded authority had me taking steps away and going to read what the word said on the topic MacArthur was speaking on. He did help in the urging me to read the word.
 

Mr E

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I have a question. What are demons then are they evil men, or men possessed by demons? I’m struggling with demons that left they first estate…are they men? Or what? Messengers? Angels what?

Edited: the reason I ask is because I’m trying to understand your perspective of who “they” are that knew Him …and they left their first estate. If I don’t understand your perspective on demons …I’m having a really hard time understanding also who “they” are that left their first estate. So I’m not asking to derail the thread on demons but in exploring who they are that knew Him…

When you read through the gospel accounts and all that followed those days, there's something going on that's quite striking. It's with the people themselves. The religious leaders are really quite awful and they completely corrupted 'religion' -- the practice, or means of encountering God. Their understanding of Him was wrong. Their teachings were wrong. And so Jesus comes and begins to straighten out some of those things. He at least tries to, but they are so cock-sure of themselves and their piety and practice, that his efforts are essentially wasted on them. Still, they oppose him at every turn, while he essentially does likewise. An interesting dynamic considering what we know now, that they didn't know then.

Secondly, there was another dynamic in play that we recognize as a kind of phenomena running through that society. It was like a social sickness with cause seemingly unknown, but the scriptures describe it as demon possession. Like a spiritual disease pervading that day-- evil personified, and right in your face, all around you, unmistakably-- people under the influence of demonic control. Jesus of course, recognized it for what it was. He cast the demons out. He called those religious leaders out. He was like an FBI profiler-- he recognized what was going on behind the scenes (hidden in darkness) and brought light to it... the evil, the corruption, the root causes-- which were spiritual influences manifesting. It's a lot like what is going on today in our culture, the world over.

He went into the temple courts and caused a ruckus. Kicking over tables and whipping those gathered there into a frenzy, he cleared the affront to God out of the courts. He performed miracles and still they asked for signs, and when they did he pointed to that temple and said it would all come down-- but he would rebuild it in three days. We know now of his double-meanings in things he said.

But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men, And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.

What is it? -that is in a man? It's funny (as in peculiar) the way we've come to think about these things. We have little trouble thinking in terms of 'demon-possessed' people-- that have something wrong with them. Something dark inside them. And when it comes to particularly good people, good 'Christians' for example, we might say that they are truly spirit-filled, or spirit-led, or that they really shine the light of Christ..... When we speak in such terms, we are referring to what Jesus referenced-- what is in men.

A lengthy prelude to answer your simple question>>
What are demons then are they evil men, or men possessed by demons? I’m struggling with demons that left they first estate…are they men? Or what? Messengers? Angels what?

The demons are those spirits that fell, exchanging immortality for corruptible flesh-- and this physical realm and this place is their prison. They are confined in human cells and bound to the earth. The angels, similarly exist as spiritual (divine) beings in the same manner, but they serve God rather than oppose Him and they are true priests of God and His Christ, reigning in that kingdom that is within.
 
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VictoryinJesus

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When you read through the gospel accounts and all that followed those days, there's something going on that's quite striking. It's with the people themselves. The religious leaders are really quite awful and they completely corrupted 'religion' -- the practice, or means of encountering God. Their understanding of Him was wrong. Their teachings were wrong. And so Jesus comes and begins to straighten out some of those things. He at least tries to, but they are so cock-sure of themselves and their piety and practice, that his efforts are essentially wasted on them. Still, they oppose him at every turn, while he essentially does likewise. An interesting dynamic considering what we know now, that they didn't know then.

Secondly, there was another dynamic in play that we recognize as a kind of phenomena running through that society. It was like a social sickness with cause seemingly unknown, but the scriptures describe it as demon possession. Like a spiritual disease pervading that day-- evil personified, and right in your face, all around you, unmistakably-- people under the influence of demonic control. Jesus of course, recognized it for what it was. He cast the demons out. He called those religious leaders out. He was like an FBI profiler-- he recognized what was going on behind the scenes (hidden in darkness) and brought light to it... the evil, the corruption, the root causes-- which were spiritual influences manifesting. It's a lot like what is going on today in our culture, the world over.

He went into the temple courts and caused a ruckus. Kicking over tables and whipping those gathered there into a frenzy, he cleared the affront to God out of the courts. He performed miracles and still they asked for signs, and when they did he pointed to that temple and said it would all come down-- but he would rebuild it in three days. We know now of his double-meanings in things he said.

But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men, And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.

What is it? -that is in a man? It's funny (as in peculiar) the way we've come to think about these things. We have little trouble thinking in terms of 'demon-possessed' people-- that have something wrong with them. Something dark inside them. And when it comes to particularly good people, good 'Christians' for example, we might say that they are truly spirit-filled, or spirit-led, or that they really shine the light of Christ..... When we speak in such terms, we are referring to what Jesus referenced-- what is in men.

A lengthy prelude to answer your simple question>>


The demons are those spirits that fell, exchanging immortality for corruptible flesh-- and this physical realm and this place is their prison. They are confined in human cells and bound to the earth. The angels, similarly exist as spiritual (divine) beings in the same manner, but they serve God rather than oppose Him and they are true priests of God and His Christ, reigning in that kingdom that is within.
Exchanging His incorruptible body for corruptible flesh …sounds like where the Word talks about there are celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies. The celestial(Heavenly) bodies Glory is one. The terrestrial(earthly) bodies glory is another. And how that passage speaks of they knew him but refused to be thankful dishonoring him with their bodies, He therefore gave them over to terrestrial bodies? Reminds me of Israel… how not all are born after the Spirit but some after the flesh. And speaking of “stars” that fell.
 
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Mr E

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Exchanging His incorruptible body for corruptible flesh …sounds like where the Word talks about there are celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies. The celestial(Heavenly) bodies Glory is one. The terrestrial(earthly) bodies glory is another. And how that passage speaks of they knew him but refused to be thankful dishonoring him with their bodies, He therefore gave them over to terrestrial bodies? Reminds me of Israel… how not all are born after the Spirit but some after the flesh. And speaking of “stars” that fell.

Yes, that's exactly what it is talking about. It's a bad trade. The good news of the gospel is redemption. It's the news that though a bad trade was made, there is a way back. A path of repentance and a return to glory. A release from prison, from a wayward journey and all the consequences of it, to then return home and find a forgiving Father waiting for us. In the scripture you reference, Paul is clearly explaining the principle that Jesus taught in that key parable of the seeds. He's saying-- your physical, earthly, flesh-body is just a kind of soil that seeds are sown into--- the LIFE is in the seeds themselves and there are all kinds of seed for different purposes-- by design, what comes from them is determined.... the seed is spiritual. It is sown into a physical body. And we know that weeds/tares are sown into the same soil. The weed-seed likewise, is spiritual and sown into men.

But someone will say, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?” Fool! What you sow will not come to life unless it dies. And what you sow is not the body that is to be, but a bare seed —perhaps of wheat or something else. But God gives it a body just as he planned, and to each of the seeds a body of its own. All flesh is not the same: People have one flesh, animals have another, birds and fish another. And there are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies. The glory of the heavenly body is one sort and the earthly another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon and another glory of the stars, for star differs from star in glory.

It is the same with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable, what is raised is imperishable. It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living person”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. However, the spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and then the spiritual. The first man is from the earth, made of dust; the second man is from heaven. Like the one made of dust, so too are those made of dust, and like the one from heaven, so too those who are heavenly. And just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, let us also bear the image of the man of heaven.

Now this is what I am saying, brothers and sisters: Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Listen, I will tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— in a moment, in the blinking of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. Now when this perishable puts on the imperishable, and this mortal puts on immortality, then the saying that is written will happen,
“Death has been swallowed up in victory.”
“Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?”
 
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VictoryinJesus

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Yes, that's exactly what it is talking about. It's a bad trade. The good news of the gospel is redemption. It's the news that though a bad trade was made, there is a way back. A path of repentance and a return to glory. A release from prison, from a wayward journey and all the consequences of it, to then return home and find a forgiving Father waiting for us. In the scripture you reference, Paul is clearly explaining the principle that Jesus taught in that key parable of the seeds. He's saying-- your physical, earthly, flesh-body is just a kind of soil that seeds are sown into--- the LIFE is in the seeds themselves and there are all kinds of seed for different purposes-- by design, what comes from them is determined.... the seed is spiritual. It is sown into a physical body. And we know that weeds/tares are sown into the same soil. The weed-seed likewise, is spiritual and sown into men.

But someone will say, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?” Fool! What you sow will not come to life unless it dies. And what you sow is not the body that is to be, but a bare seed —perhaps of wheat or something else. But God gives it a body just as he planned, and to each of the seeds a body of its own. All flesh is not the same: People have one flesh, animals have another, birds and fish another. And there are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies. The glory of the heavenly body is one sort and the earthly another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon and another glory of the stars, for star differs from star in glory.

It is the same with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable, what is raised is imperishable. It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living person”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. However, the spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and then the spiritual. The first man is from the earth, made of dust; the second man is from heaven. Like the one made of dust, so too are those made of dust, and like the one from heaven, so too those who are heavenly. And just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, let us also bear the image of the man of heaven.

Now this is what I am saying, brothers and sisters: Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Listen, I will tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— in a moment, in the blinking of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. Now when this perishable puts on the imperishable, and this mortal puts on immortality, then the saying that is written will happen,
“Death has been swallowed up in victory.”
“Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?”
That is good news! ❤️
Was thinking or meditating before your response on the stars that fell and the heavens darkened …in reference to Romans 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Yet Good news Isaiah 65:17-19 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. [18] But be you glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. [19] And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.

Because they knew God …yet they glorified Him not as God, neither were thankful
To me is significant with “But be you glad and rejoice in that which I create …”
 

Ronald David Bruno

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I think it's easier to embrace 'destroy' when you fully understand that there are a great number of people in this world who are wicked beyond your wildest imagination.

if you could witness (which I have not, thank the Lord) one instance of human sacrifice, or innocent child .... torture and mangling, destroying, ... you would want with all your heart for those people to be completely obliterated, and possibly not quickly.

now take that idea and multiply it by untold thousands, maybe more. there are factions that facilitate this kind of activity on a regular basis all over the world. those who assist in human trafficking all over the world, even in the most unassuming states and cities of America, deserve God's brutal justice.

the suffering that these organizations create is beyond comprehension on a scale unimaginable.

now, knowing that God's people will be saved (protected/shielded) from the wrath to come, do you not wish for all the evil people in the world to be utterly destroyed when our Lord and Savior returns with justice IN FIRE?

I know I surely do.

I don't need gore necessarily, but I hope I'm there to see it.

this world has been completely turned to evil and darkness and all that has been turned that way needs to burn away completely so that Holiness and Righteousness can reign upon the New Earth that will come thereafter.
@ VictoryinJesus

Right, God gave them over, He let them go _ to their own demise, DESTRUCTION. And destroy means to "put an end to", annihilate. The wages of sin is death. And death is both physical and spiritual.
Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Several translations use the word Gehenna instead of Hell. Gehenna was a physical, perpetual, burning dump for diseased animals and garbage outside of Jerusalem and originally the same area where the Cannonites sacrificed babies on an altar to their god, Molech. They actually put their babies on a burning red hot iron altar. They were surely possessed by demons.
Back to Gehenna, The "worm never dies" there _ because, on the perimeter of the dump, away from the center of smoldering flames, the dead bodies would be eaten by worms, that remained unharmed. A horrible place. This is where their concept of Hell came from.
Sheol is translated as Hades and many have the understanding that Hades means Hell. But he final judgement is Hell, the Lake of Fire. Hades cannot be Hell, since Death and Hades are both destroyed in the Lake of Fire, including all who were in Hades, Satan, his demons, the first heaven and first earth as well. This event is the culmination of
mankind's sinful history, the end of evil >> (2 Peter 3:10)
Worms surely won't survive that event!
 

Ronald David Bruno

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Thought a lot about that also. Confused at a Hell reward, a wage…never ending…with they have received their full wages, death. they have no more reward. In reference to the glory of men.
I am not sure I follow ... Hell reward? Wages just means judgment. Jesus paid the price for 1/3 of the population, maybe more? But remember narrow is the gate to life, wide is the way to destruction.
It's life in Christ or death. He is our Savior and that is what we are saved from.
 

VictoryinJesus

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I am not sure I follow ... Hell reward? Wages just means judgment. Jesus paid the price for 1/3 of the population, maybe more? But remember narrow is the gate to life, wide is the way to destruction.
It's life in Christ or death. He is our Savior and that is what we are saved from.
You said “I am not sure I follow…Hell reward?”
Im not following either so don’t feel bad. That came out wrong I wasn’t meaning to imply Hell reward. I only meant I’ve thought also about wages and reward …are they the same? I mean the words to receive wages …for works whether the work be of God, or the work be of men.
 
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Mr E

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You said “I am not sure I follow…Hell reward?”
Im not following either so don’t feel bad. That came out wrong I wasn’t meaning to imply Hell reward. I only meant I’ve thought also about wages and reward …are they the same? I mean the words to receive wages …for works whether the work be of God, or the work be of men.

I think I cracked the code. It's a little thing called an apostrophe. He'll reward. (it's the little things that count)
 
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VictoryinJesus

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You come near the fire here.... When focusing on the spiritual side and considering those things seen in spirit-- every spiritual attribute is expressed as an animal. This is a spiritual principle to be applied from Genesis to Revelation concerning things seen in spirit. Understanding this will change almost everything for you, because while these things seen in spirit are seen as spiritual animals above-- they are reflected below as human attributes-- that is, characteristics of men.

A lion seen above (in spirit) is seen as a mighty, majestic, powerful man, below. You have to make the association between the spiritual-animal attribute and the physical -human character-istic. A lamb, a dove, a snake, a donkey, a horse..... These all have particular attributes that we can associate with particular human attributes, concerning one's nature.
Revisiting what you shared here. Odd question but when you spoke of what is reflected from above (looking up) or below (looking down). Jesus Christ said (if I understand) to be the true expressed image of the Father. I don’t know how to word my question but how and what is revealed in God above and Christ manifested below? In looking up? For example how He said “I only say what I hear my Father say. And I only do what I see my Father do.” As the expressed image of the Father?
Maybe you will understand or find the question in all that. I’m considering beast …then the natural attributes. How significant is Christ expression of God and The Fathers expression of Christ?
 
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Mr E

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Revisiting what you shared here. Odd question but when you spoke of what is reflected from above (looking up) or below (looking down). Jesus Christ said (if I understand) to be the true expressed image of the Father. I don’t know how to word my question but how and what is revealed in God above and Christ manifested below? In looking up? For example how He said “I only say what I hear my Father say. And I only do what I see my Father do.” As the expressed image of the Father?
Maybe you will understand or find the question in all that. I’m considering beast …then the natural attributes. How significant is Christ expression of God and The Fathers expression of Christ?
John the Baptist describes it all so well in John 1–
He says- Behold the lamb of God. — because that’s what he’s witnessed in spirit. It’s how he recognizes him as ‘the one’ they were waiting for.

From the heavenly perspective- the Holy Spirit— like a dove, descends.

How significant? It’s everything.
 
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VictoryinJesus

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John the Baptist describes it all so well in John 1–
He says- Behold the lamb of God. — because that’s what he’s witnessed in spirit. It’s how he recognizes him as ‘the one’ they were waiting for.

From the heavenly perspective- the Holy Spirit— like a dove, descends.

How significant? It’s everything.
“From the heavenly perspective—the Holy Spirit —like a dove, descends” makes me think of : James 3:17 : But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, reasonable, full of mercy and good fruits, unwavering, without hypocrisy.

James 3:18 : And the seed whose fruit is righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.

But then I think about that unapproachable burning mountain where if any touched it, they would die.

Unapproachable
And easy to be intreated
Sound opposite… is the unapproachable from the earthly perspective? That has been my biggest journey in my mind of two opposites and being told both are God. It is hard to hear one thing “this is God” , and then another “no this is God” where they are extreme opposite.
 

Mr E

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Boom you got it! Those mentions in James are “attributes” of that wisdom from above. That logos… and it’s no coincidence that we think of doves in such similar terms. Those attributes from above are personified in the form of a dove, which is why the association is made. It’s not accidental or incidental— it’s descriptive.
 
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VictoryinJesus

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Boom you got it! Those mentions in James are “attributes” of that wisdom from above. That logos… and it’s no coincidence that we think of doves in such similar terms. Those attributes from above are personified in the form of a dove, which is why the association is made. It’s not accidental or incidental— it’s descriptive.
Agree, I’ll feed the doves seed in the yard. They are non aggressive, I never see them up in the feeders but on the ground, waiting patiently for seed. I do see them as gentle.

But the same way; I see the snake getting in the nest and eating the momma bird and the chicks …as hateful and you need to slither on to some place else. I do get that is how nature works. But it is hard to see.
 
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Mr E

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Unapproachable
And easy to be intreated
Sound opposite… is the unapproachable from the earthly perspective? That has been my biggest journey in my mind of two opposites and being told both are God. It is hard to hear one thing “this is God” , and then another “no this is God” where they are extreme opposite.

You said it in a word.

Unapproachable.

Another way of expressing the concept is- Holy. Set apart. Distinct. Separate. Different. Unique.

I’m trying to get the point across that you can’t consider the things below in the same way as those things above. The things below are but a representation, or image of the things above, but they are a poor reflection. Like that dove, in truth is nothing like the spirit it is merely associated by virtue of the way we attribute characteristics of something we know and are familiar with to something otherwise indescribable.

So below, you have a fiery mountain none can approach while above in spirit you have a Holy God who has nothing to do with the flesh. God is spirit. No flesh can approach Him. Instead, He sends His son to dwell among us. Immanuel.
 
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VictoryinJesus

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I’m trying to get the point across that you can’t consider the things below in the same way as those things above. The things below are but a representation, or image of the things above, but they are a poor reflection.
I think I get it. About the burning mountain and what is seen above. That it is not evil but merciful that God does not accept our works of the flesh. To me it is good that those things He forgets and remembers them no more. Destroying that. As His not being a part of or in agreement with those things done in the flesh.

What you said above though. I think that is why I initially asked you about the expression of Christ. You said “ I’m trying to get the point across that you can’t consider the things below in the same way as those things above. The things below are but a representation, or image of the things above, but they are a poor reflection.” …considering Christ Jesus maybe is unique also in the first that is not a poor reflection of those things above.
 

VictoryinJesus

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Jan 26, 2017
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…considering Christ Jesus maybe is unique also in the first that is not a poor reflection of those things above.
But now thinking about it. If all we see are physical healings, and demonic possession cast out, a withered hand restored, and bread given with an earthly perspective…Is Christ Jesus a poor reflection of those things above. Or is our eyesight poor? (Short-sighted?)
 
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