They are without excuse

[Ronald David Bruno]

1 Timothy 1:18-20 This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare; [19] Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck: [20] Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

He chastised those He loves. Turning them over to Satan for a lesson is temporal. He did that with Job. But letting someone go forever is quite a different thing. Many have lived a life of hell on earth, persecuted by Satan and in the end came full circle back to God.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Also for me …I can’t reconcile what the NT says of the Ark of Christ where if one sees a brother in need and shuts up his bowels of compassion towards him, the love of God isn’t in him. With the Ark Noah built.

Compassion for brothers is doable, yet we fail at times. Loving your enemies is even more difficult. We are sinners.
Jesus is like the Ark in that OSAS and so once you are in:
"For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 8:38-39

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Compassion for brothers is doable, yet we fail at times. Loving your enemies is even more difficult. We are sinners.

Agree. Doable to love those who love you. Loving those who don’t love you…agree. That is like alien. Definitely foreign.

 

[M3n0r4h]

True that all is heartbreaking and I don’t deny a perverted heart. But as hideous as it is to visually witnesses the brutality of perversions…He also speaks of a perversion of destroying infants Christ died for. I don’t see it as He does. All I’m saying is if we can look and judge those who kill children as undeniably worthy of death, slower the better…yes shouting it with fullness of agreement as “the sin” is truly worthy of death…that is what I’m trying to say …or suggest…we are acknowledging that killing a brother who is weak and a child for whom Christ died, by our own admissions of what is right and what is wrong we condemn ourselves and are without excuse. Not able to say His Divine attributes were undisclosed.

love the sin, hate the sinner ... is a myth.

God punishes sinners, not their sins.

Jesus didn't die for the Tares.

just sayin.

Truth is Truth ... even when it's painful or uncomfortable.

 

[M3n0r4h]

Trying to suggests as an opinion of what “they are without excuse” means to me. It means if I destroy a child, the children of God for whom Christ died, by my own admissions …of what is right and what is wrong when someone perverted does the most perverted things and I don’t acknowledge my own perversions against His children…then I am also no different than someone who preys on the infants, babes only they are infants in Christ. As harsh as that is… a harsh mirrored view of what destruction looks like. Ugly. Not wanting to see what goes on in a heart against God. If I do the same against His body…then by my own doings of what I speak as wrong and hideous in the eyes of God(all the things you listed)…by my own doings of the same “spiritually”; I then Approve of all those things you spoke of. Because I do the same against His Children. Don’t misunderstand. I’m not saying those things are not wrong (all you listed)…but that we might be growing if we equally see how hideous our actions are (spiritually)against the Children of God.

no offense/insult intended, but I think you are a bit confused.

God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. He doesn't change.

He is all about justice and judgment. He is not a wet noodle.

if He fully condoned, and expected, wicked people to be executed in the Old Testament, you can rest assured He expects it today and there is a very important reason for that. people who are wicked give birth/rise to more and more wickedness the more they are allowed to do as they will.

crime today is being less and less punished, True justice is being forsaken as the enemies of God take more and more control over the world.

God does not shed a single tear for the wicked people of the earth and He will come with furious anger and merciless vengeance upon those who live their lives in total opposition to His ways. especially those who harm children and the innocent.

there is no gray area here, this is black and white.

we either fight to live God's way or we accept that His Fiery Wrath rests upon us until it fully comes.

period.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

no offense/insult intended, but I think you are a bit confused.

God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. He doesn't change.

He is all about justice and judgment. He is not a wet noodle.

if He fully condoned, and expected, wicked people to be executed in the Old Testament, you can rest assured He expects it today and there is a very important reason for that. people who are wicked give birth/rise to more and more wickedness the more they are allowed to do as they will.

crime today is being less and less punished, True justice is being forsaken as the enemies of God take more and more control over the world.

God does not shed a single tear for the wicked people of the earth and He will come with furious anger and merciless vengeance upon those who live their lives in total opposition to His ways. especially those who harm children and the innocent.

there is no gray area here, this is black and white.

we either fight to live God's way or we accept that His Fiery Wrath rests upon us until it fully comes.

period.

No offense or insult taken. I can be wrong. And I never meant to suggest God is a wet noodle. because I don’t think He is a wet noodle. I fear my contradictions between my mouth and my actions. Thinking He is fair and just towards my hypocrisy. BUT I also trust the He is good. And a better Father than I have ever had.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

love the sin, hate the sinner ... is a myth.

God punishes sinners, not their sins.

Jesus didn't die for the Tares.

just sayin.

Truth is Truth ... even when it's painful or uncomfortable.

I hear you but I’m still not convinced exactly who the tares are. I know who I’m told the tares are but maybe tares is everything born of the flesh; the lust of the flesh, and the pride of life. Which all has had their conversations in. Familiar with to choke out the word, to steal away what is planted on stone, and the sun rises and burns up what has been planted, it springing up too fast without any root or depth. Why would He say all must be born ANew. Unless you have been a tare? Thinking Saul could relate to being plucked up by the roots and replanted (Paul) of God.

 

[dadman]

Detroit-area city bans LGBTQ+ pride flags on public property​

Oh my ..... the war begins ??
ya know ... the LGBTQP go after Bakers / artist and Christian-owned businesses 24/7/365 ...
let's see what happens when "Some members of the all-Muslim council said the pride flag clashes" .....
gonna watch this one closely.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Detroit-area city bans LGBTQ+ pride flags on public property​

Oh my ..... the war begins ??

Do you mean Pride and Prejudice …the war begins? It will be Like a Biden and Trump face off of who is less dirty.

 

[Behold]

Do you mean Pride and Prejudice …the war begins? It will be Like a Biden and Trump face off of who is less dirty.

We can't know which of those 2 men has sinned the most, but we do see the one that has "PRIDE" parties in the While House, and the one who never would.
They are trying to imprison the one who never would, and cover up for the one who did, already.

 

[dadman]

Do you mean Pride and Prejudice …the war begins? It will be Like a Biden and Trump face off of who is less dirty.

yeah, it's like one 'religious dysfunction' confronting another 'religious dysfunction'

 

[Mr E]

how will they know the things hidden in secret cause death, if there is only approval for it to stay hidden? like the song you posted by Johnny Cash, with a handheld behind your back holding a rock, to destroy your brothers. this is all opinion but my perspective. I get you disagree here. But to me it is saying we (don’t)disapprove of those hideous things done in secret, by our own refusal to bring to the Light what is kept in secret behind our backs. But while holding a rock behind your back, to destroy your brothers with, by the hiding of what is in your hand, you approve of the hidden things of "not knowing". To me walking in the Light and disproving those things done in secret that we say we hate and are worthy of destruction; we bring those things we have done worthy of destruction into the Light of Christ for its destruction. I can only speak from what I've experienced which then does make me doubt my faith and question God. The best I have felt is when something weighs heavy on me, and I bring it out into the Light. Even if it destroys me. But this world says "No" "We don't want to hear it. We don't care to hear it how it is eating you up inside. Hide it back away. Bury it." I want to tell my secrets but what I've been met with is, your secrets aren't that important. This world teaches to create an altered image of yourself. Put on a facade. Tell us lies. while inside the facade, we know is false, hides who we truly are and keeps us from healing in the Light of Christ. My mom or husband ...can remember which says: you can put lipstick on a pig...it is still a pig. To walk in the Light to me means to remove the facade. To reveal and bring out what is within into the Light and to continue in that "walking".



it is not so much a matter of good and evil...disagree. Because something the early church did had a man down on his knees before God removing the facade and bring what was in darkness out into the Light for its destruction, cleansing, renewing, washing.... maybe i am wrong but to me to walk in the Light is to drop the rock behind your back, and to stop pretending under disguise. Like selfies that don't show it like it truly is. Yet, that is what the world teaches is "acceptable". what is teaching what is "acceptable" unto God? Is it the facade? i thought we are supposed to show no fear in removing the disguise, and by doing so approve of "removal of the disguise." not walking in darkness (kept hidden) but in the light (Exposed? The Light Searching and cleansing) ...but again that is just my perspective. that walking in the Light is not holding a rock behind your back to destroy your brother, while claiming you can't wait for things done in darkness to be revealed.

Sorry, I'm not following your thoughts here. Nothing was seen or understood until the coming of the Light. The light is what brought understanding and the light was good. Does it say that the darkness was bad? A separation/distinction between the two was made. The light is simply what allows you to understand those things that were once hidden in darkness. With respect to that song I posted, it's not the action that was hidden-- it was the motive. And the point being made is that the hidden things are made known. Revealed, as in brought to light.

 

[Mr E]

Romans 1:18-32 is talking about unbelievers whom "God let's go and gives them over to their sinful lives. These are the reprobates, not believers. "Since the beginning ..." is a reference to just about all humanity except 8 saved in the Ark. But after that anyone who continues to reject, resist and disobey God up to the moment of death, are reprobate. We don't know who they are, only God knows. Well, if we know people who deny Christ even on their death bed, then we know they are part of this group. Someone could be rebellious and wicked all their lives until their last days and then repent and be saved. So we can't judge who, we just know that many will be lost. And the whole point is, anyone who dies without a relationship with God is without excuse.

It isn't talking about unbelievers at all. It's talking about the unfaithful. It's talking about those who know the truth, and supress it.

We read in James that even the demons believe..... and it is by the works of the devil that the truth is suppressed.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Sorry, I'm not following your thoughts here. Nothing was seen or understood until the coming of the Light. The light is what brought understanding and the light was good. Does it say that the darkness was bad? A separation/distinction between the two was made. The light is simply what allows you to understand those things that were once hidden in darkness. With respect to that song I posted, it's not the action that was hidden-- it was the motive. And the point being made is that the hidden things are made known. Revealed, as in brought to light.

You make sense. Thanks for clarifying …I like where you said “motive” …I hadn’t thought of it that way.

 

[Mr E]

You make sense. Thanks for clarifying …I like where you said “motive” …I hadn’t thought of it that way.

Scripture- Hebrews I think, refers to it as 'the thoughts and intents of the heart' -- in terms of what will be exposed (revealed).

And no creature is hidden from God, but everything is naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must render an account.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

It isn't talking about unbelievers at all. It's talking about the unfaithful.

Faith and belief are inseparable.
"Now faith is assurance of things hoped for, a conviction of things not seen."
That is believing, based on evidence and you move forward with that certainty.
So being unfaithful is not believing that "God causes all things to work for good".
Yes one may believe that God exists but does not believe that God loves him, nor has a plan for his life. Out of sight / out of mind as they say. They don't depend on Him because they don't trust Him, love Him, honor Him or know Him.

 

[Mr E]

Faith and belief are inseparable.
"Now faith is assurance of things hoped for, a conviction of things not seen."
That is believing, based on evidence and you move forward with that certainty.
So being unfaithful is not believing that "God causes all things to work for good".
Yes one may believe that God exists but does not believe that God loves him, nor has a plan for his life. Out of sight / out of mind as they say. They don't depend on Him because they don't trust Him, love Him, honor Him or know Him.

The scripture we are discussing stipulates that the "they" in question are those who knew Him, yet suppress the truth. Elsewhere we read that the demons 'know' him, yet exchanged and left their estate, making them both believers, and unfaithful. It's not faith and belief that are united, but faith and works. The workers of iniquity are unfaithful----- believing, or not. By their fruit (works) you will know them.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

The scripture we are discussing stipulates that the "they" in question are those who knew Him, yet suppress the truth. Elsewhere we read that the demons 'know' him, yet exchanged and left their estate, making them both believers, and unfaithful. It's not faith and belief that are united, but faith and works. The workers of iniquity are unfaithful----- believing, or not. By their fruit (works) you will know them.

I have a question. What are demons then are they evil men, or men possessed by demons? I’m struggling with demons that left they first estate…are they men? Or what? Messengers? Angels what?

Edited: the reason I ask is because I’m trying to understand your perspective of who “they” are that knew Him …and they left their first estate. If I don’t understand your perspective on demons …I’m having a really hard time understanding also who “they” are that left their first estate. So I’m not asking to derail the thread on demons but in exploring who they are that knew Him…

 

[dadman]

I have a question. What are demons then are they evil men, or men possessed by demons? I’m struggling with demons that left they first estate…are they men? Or what? Messengers? Angels what?

I thought this was a really good study .....

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

The scripture we are discussing stipulates that the "they" in question are those who knew Him, yet suppress the truth

Knowing someone does not mean you believe in them. I know who Joe Biden is.
Teenage gangsters ir drug addicts know who their parents are, yet did not believe what they taught them about good and evil. They dishonored them, did not abide in them. Many of them die young.

The context of Romans 1:1-17 is about believers in Christ, those who love God.

"to all who are beloved of God in Rome, called as saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, because your faith is being proclaimed throughout the world. (vs.7-8)
...
"For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed [k]from faith to faith; as it is written: “But the righteous one will live by faith.”(vs. 16-17)

Unbelief and Its Consequences​

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of people who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, that is, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, being understood by what has been made, so that they are without excuse. ...

From verse 18-32, it is about those who do not believe in God, hence do not have faith. Even the writers of the NASB insert a sub-heading, dividing the chapter: "Unbelief and consequences".
Again belief in Christ and faith are inseparable.
I have faith in God, believe in Jesus!
Faith has to do with belief in God/Christ.

Your reference: "You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble" James 2:19
It does not follow that believing that there is a God means you believe in Him, that everything about Him is good, that you love Him, obey Him ...
Belief is a heavy term, it holds a lot of weight. It means that if you believe in Christ, you will do what He says and follow Him. And this was in the context of " faith without works is dead". James was just making that point. God prepares works for us to do and the Holy Spirit works through us to produce fruit. So we must obey, cooperate with His plan.
I have these relatives who are new believers, all puffed up spouting scriptures, praising God -- but there is no fruit. They don't practice what they preach, love towards others, etc. James' message is for them. They'll learn... eventually.

>> It is possible you have a different view of what belief and faith is? I guess we just can't find unity on this topic.
Oh well, peace to you.