They will reign with Him a thousand years and making an unknown Greek out of the English New Testament

[CadyandZoe]

NO! NO! NO! Those in verses 28-29 are indeed the physically dead to come out of the tombs at the end of the age when Christ returns for the resurrection, the "anastasis" and judgment. For those in verse 24-25, the hour is coming AND NOW IS.

Okay. I see what you are doing there. If I understand you correctly, you are attempting to make sense of verse 24. What does Jesus mean by "passed out of death into life? And I agree that Jesus must be talking about something other than biology, because his followers weren't biologically dead at the time.

Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Doesn't the phrase that I underlined inform our understanding of "death" and "life"? If one is judged aren't they "dead" in some sense? And if they are pardoned and destined for eternal life, aren't they "alive" in that sense?

 

[Ritajanice]

what can it mean to be "dead"

We were dead in our sins/ trespass..because we hadn’t been brought from death into life...that life is Gods Spirit with in us,,,,when we became Born Again by the will of God...

Hence “Spirit gives birth to spirit “...he brought our spirit from death unto life.....life in His Spirit...

He baptised us in the Spirit....which is the “ Living “ spiritual birth.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Not our mortal bodies. Bodies, not flesh. "Somah" not "sarx".

I'm not sure the distinction you are making or why you don't think our resurrected body will be material or corporeal. My point isn't to dispute or disagree with you. I want to better understand your thinking. Any help would be appreciated.

 

[JBO]

No, I know. I'm sorry about that. I'm working out the distinction as it pertains to Jesus. I'm wondering what conclusions we can draw from the different connotations, especially with regard to John's concept of a "first resurrection." I don't think John is suggesting that Jesus was the first to be "awakened" to the gospel message. Or maybe he is?

He certainly wasn't the first to be awakened from death or the first to rise up out of a tomb. But he WAS the first to ascend up to heaven.

Yes?

The first resurrection in Revelation 20:5 is, I believe, exactly what John was talking about in John 5:24-25, namely, regeneration. Clearly those will not be subject to the second death (Rev 20:6).

For what it is worth, in Revelation 20:4, what John saw seated on thrones were two separate groups. The first was the " the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God"; the second was those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands.". This second group was not the SOULS of those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. The Greek word οιτινες [hostis] meaning "those" is the subject of that sentence. It is not the object of preposition modifying souls in the first part of that sentence. These were not souls of physically dead. They come to life, as explained in John 5:24-25. They are us. We are today reigning with Christ.

 

[JBO]

We were dead in our sins/ trespass..because we hadn’t been brought from death into life...that life is Gods Spirit with in us,,,,when we became Born Again by the will of God...

Hence “Spirit gives birth to spirit “...he brought our spirit from death unto life.....life in His Spirit...

He baptised us in the Spirit....which is the “ Living “ spiritual birth.

I certainly agree with that ! ! !

 

[JBO]

I'm not sure the distinction you are making or why you don't think our resurrected body will be material or corporeal. My point isn't to dispute or disagree with you. I want to better understand your thinking. Any help would be appreciated.

Body as distinct from flesh just as natural body is distinct from spiritual body. It doesn't say spiritual sarx, i.e., spiritual flesh. The resurrection body is not flesh.

As to my understanding, all I can say is that when I read the same things as you are reading, I come away with the beliefs that I have. I believe the age to come will be spiritual not material. I could be wrong, but I do not think I am.

 

[Ritajanice]

I certainly agree with that ! ! !

LOL.

 

[CadyandZoe]

John 3:13 And no man has ascended [anabaínō] up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Acts 1:9-10 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up [epaírō]; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as he went up [poreúomai], behold, two men stood by them in white apparel.

anabaínō is also found in John 2:17: Jesus says unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended [anabaínō] to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Same word in Acts 2:34: For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he says himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit you on my right hand,

Same in Acts 25:1 Now when Festus was come into the province, after three days he ascended from Caesarea to Jerusalem

and in Ephesians 4:8-10: Wherefore he says, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

Same in Revelation 8:4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.

Same for when the two witnesses ascended to heaven in Rev 11:12

Same for when Jesus came up out of the water at His baptism (Matthew 3:16); and when He ascended up the mountain to get away from the crowds (Matthew 5:1).

All using the word anabaínō,

I can carry on looking, but so far I have not found a verse where anístēmi is referring to the ascension of Jesus into heaven.

@CadyandZoe
@JBO
On the other hand, there are quite a few verses where the word anistemi is found that are referring neither to resurrection from death nor to an ascension into heaven, for example:

Matthew 9:9: And as Jesus passed forth from thence, he saw a man, named Matthew, sitting at the receipt of custom: and he says unto him, Follow me. And he arose [anistemi], and followed him.

There are quite a few verses where it refers neither to ascension into heaven nor to resurrection from death - but wherever anistemi is used in reference to resurrection from death, it's talking about the resurrection of the body.

Good point. It would appear that anistemi indicates rising from a sitting or laying position. While Jesus was in the tomb, he was laying down. When he "awakened," he sat up and stood up.

 

[JBO]

LOL.

View attachment 38881

Is that one of your selfies?

 

[CadyandZoe]

Body as distinct from flesh just as natural body is distinct from spiritual body. It doesn't say spiritual sarx, i.e., spiritual flesh. The resurrection body is not flesh.

So you understand the terms "natural" and "spiritual" as adjectives describing what the body is made of?

 

[CadyandZoe]

Body as distinct from flesh just as natural body is distinct from spiritual body. It doesn't say spiritual sarx, i.e., spiritual flesh. The resurrection body is not flesh.

As to my understanding, all I can say is that when I read the same things as you are reading, I come away with the beliefs that I have. I believe the age to come will be spiritual not material. I could be wrong, but I do not think I am.

I guess I don't understand what a "spiritual" existence will be like. When Jesus was resurrected, he denied being a ghost or a spirit.

 

[Ritajanice]

Body as distinct from flesh just as natural body is distinct from spiritual body. It doesn't say spiritual sarx, i.e., spiritual flesh. The resurrection body is not flesh.

As to my understanding, all I can say is that when I read the same things as you are reading, I come away with the beliefs that I have. I believe the age to come will be spiritual not material. I could be wrong, but I do not think I am.

What do you make of this scripture?

Luke 24:39 ►

Audio Crossref Comment Greek Verse (Click for Chapter) New International Version Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.” New Living Translation Look at my hands. Look at my feet. You can see that it’s really me. Touch me and make sure that I am not a ghost, because ghosts don’t have bodies, as you see that I do.” English Standard Version See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.” Berean Standard Bible Look at My hands and My feet. It is I Myself. Touch Me and see—for a spirit does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.” Berean Literal Bible See My hands and My feet, that I am He. Touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones, as you see Me having." King James Bible Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. New King James Version Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.

 

[Ritajanice]

I guess I don't understand what a "spiritual" existence will be like. When Jesus was resurrected, he denied being a ghost or a spirit.

He did..I just posted some scripture on it...what do you make of what he said?

 

[Zao is life]

Good point. It would appear that anistemi indicates rising from a sitting or laying position.

Not in every verse it's found in, no.

Matthew 12:41: The men of Nineveh shall rise [anístēmi] in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.

Matthew 22:24: Master, Moses said, If a man die, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up [anístēmi] seed unto his brother.

"Rise" or "arise" is the operative word for anistemi, I think. Same with egeiro. But they don't always refer to rising again from death. Whenever they do, the words are referring to the resurrection of the body.

 

[CadyandZoe]

We were dead in our sins/ trespass..because we hadn’t been brought from death into life...that life is Gods Spirit with in us,,,,when we became Born Again by the will of God...

Hence “Spirit gives birth to spirit “...he brought our spirit from death unto life.....life in His Spirit...

He baptised us in the Spirit....which is the “ Living “ spiritual birth.

"Okay, I understand that being "alive" in Christ involves having the Holy Spirit dwelling in us, as Paul mentions in Romans 8. I agree with this. However, in Ephesians 2, Paul seems to be conveying something more than that. He talks about how we are raised up and seated with Christ in the heavenlies, which appears to describe another aspect of our salvation. Don't you agree?"

 

[CadyandZoe]

Not in every verse it's found in, no.

Matthew 12:41: The men of Nineveh shall rise [anístēmi] in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.

Matthew 22:24: Master, Moses said, If a man die, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up [anístēmi] seed unto his brother.

"Rise" or "arise" is the operative word for anistemi, I think. Same with egeiro. But they don't always refer to rising again from death.

I thought about that. In the case of Nineveh, the picture I have is a public hearing where a person stands up to testify in front of the City Council. In the Final Judgment, Nineveh will "stand up" in a figurative sense to testify against this generation. Is that what you mean? That anistemi can be used in the figurative sense?

But I agree with your assessment that they don't always refer to rising from the dead.

I'm still thinking about the contrast between Jesus standing up in the tomb and his ascension.

 

[Zao is life]

NO! NO! NO! Those in verses 28-29 are indeed the physically dead to come out of the tombs at the end of the age when Christ returns for the resurrection, the "anastasis" and judgment. For those in verse 24-25, the hour is coming AND NOW IS.

I don't see it that way.

Romans 8
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who has subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors in pain together until now.

God gave Adam dominion over all his creation on earth before Adam sinned and began to die. Why would God have given Adam dominion over something that was meant to be temporary?

 

[Ritajanice]

"Okay, I understand that being "alive" in Christ involves having the Holy Spirit dwelling in us, as Paul mentions in Romans 8. I agree with this. However, in Ephesians 2, Paul seems to be conveying something more than that. He talks about how we are raised up and seated with Christ in the heavenlies, which appears to describe another aspect of our salvation. Don't you agree?"

Yes I agree, I will read up on that, do further study...thanks.

 

[CadyandZoe]

He did..I just posted some scripture on it...what do you make of what he said?

Since Luke is recording Jesus' statement after he was resurrected, he speaks of his resurrected body when he says, ". . . a spirit has neither flesh or bones as you see that I have." Can't we conclude, therefore, that a resurrected body has flesh and bones? Maybe so.

But since I remain open minded about this, I am compelled to mention what Paul said about our inheritance. Didn't he say that flesh and bones cannot inherit the kingdom of God? There is more to this than meets the eye, I think. Perhaps a resurrection body isn't corporeal. I haven't decided yet. But given what Jesus said, we can definitely conclude that a resurrection body is both tangible and recognizable.

 

[Zao is life]

I thought about that. In the case of Nineveh, the picture I have is a public hearing where a person stands up to testify in front of the City Council. In the Final Judgment, Nineveh will "stand up" in a figurative sense to testify against this generation. Is that what you mean? That anistemi can be used in the figurative sense?

But I agree with your assessment that they don't always refer to rising from the dead.

I'm still thinking about the contrast between Jesus standing up in the tomb and his ascension.

Though we rise from the dead in the resurrection of our bodies we will never ascend into heaven the way the Son of God has, who also descended from heaven.

In Him we are already ascended, and He will come down again in the clouds and take us up when we have been resurrected bodily, but how far "up" we get taken before coming back to live and reign with Him on earth is not even mentioned, unless we add it into the statement,

"And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there all of you may be also." (John 14:3).

Though I'm not too sure about adding it to that statement in a physical sense either because Jesus qualified it with,

"And where I go all of you know, and the way all of you know.​

Thomas says unto him, Lord, we know not where you go; and how can we know the way? Jesus says unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes unto the Father, but by me.

If all of you had known me, all of you should have known my Father also: and from henceforth all of you know him, and have seen him.

Philip says unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it satisfies us. Jesus says unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet have you not known me, Philip? he that has seen me has seen the Father; and how say you then, Show us the Father?

It seems to me Jesus is talking more about the indwelling of His Spirit:

"At that day all of you shall know that I am in my Father, and all of you in me, and I in you. He that has my commandments, and keeps them, he it is that loves me: and he that loves me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him." John 14:20-21

All of that goes with us being seated with Him where He is after having been raised with Him, at the time we were quickened with Him through birth by the Spirit.