Death came by sin, actually. Once they sinned, they died.
Death is separation, you know.
Much love!
This really grabbed me today!
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Death is separation, you know.
Much love!
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Not wrong, in view of Matthew 7:21-23....no one will want to hear that rejection.
Strangely, I too allow the Bible to explain itself.
I see the 144,000 as a separate group that the apostle John saw in his Revelation.
This finite group are contrasted with an unnumbered group, who are seen attributing salvation to God and the Lamb. (Revelation 7:4)
The 144,00 are those who are “sealed” and are seen on a heavenly Mt Zion with Jesus.
The other group are also identified as Christians because they have counted on the sacrifice of Jesus Christ for their salvation, but the angel tells John that these are “the ones who come out of the great tribulation” which takes place on earth. (Revelation 7:4,9-10, 13-14)
I see two distinct groups...one with an immortal heavenly destination, and the other who will enjoy everlasting mortal life on earth. Together, these will complete God’s original purpose for everlasting human life on earth, with the assistance of Christ and his heavenly priesthood to bring them back to sinless perfection....as God first intended.
Again, who is the “we” you mention? Those who become part of the “elect” are chosen by God for a specific role in heaven....that of “kings and priests” so again, who are their subjects? Who are they ruling, and for whom are they carrying out their priestly duties?
Really? How do you come to this conclusion? What I see in the scriptures is the elect going to the place where Jesus said that he was going to “prepare a place” for them. I cannot see heaven as an altered state of being on earth...it is a destination...one that not all Christians will get to experience.
Being “born again” means very different things to different people. To me, I see that the Bible describes it as being resurrected in a new form...a new body...one that is capable of dwelling in the spiritual realm, in the presence of God. (Matthew 5:8)
Those with “the heavenly calling” (often termed “saints”) are those who are anointed with God’s spirit, certain of this calling, as Paul said, it is “a token in advance” of their heavenly destination. (Hebrews 3:1; Ephesians 1:13-14) These are called “saints” (holy ones) for a reason. I believe that the “we” in all those scriptures is the elect....written by them and for them.
Since it is God who chooses the ones who will rule with Christ and restore his first purpose, he has chosen only those who will make the best rulers of mankind. We can be grateful that he has chosen the best because he loves us.
@Heart2Soul Philippians is a wonderful epistle; I think I've in the past started more than one thread on it.......
I think that you have made a mistake at step one! The 144,000 are on the earth, not in heaven. Revelation 7:1-4(WEB):
(1) After this, I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, so that no wind would blow on the earth, or on the sea, or on any tree.
(2) I saw another angel ascend from the sunrise, having the seal of the living God. He cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was given to harm the earth and the sea,
(3) saying, “Don’t harm the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, until we have sealed the bondservants of our God on their foreheads!”
(4) I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred forty-four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the children of Israel:
(2) I saw another angel ascend from the sunrise, having the seal of the living God. He cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was given to harm the earth and the sea,
(3) saying, “Don’t harm the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, until we have sealed the bondservants of our God on their foreheads!”
(4) I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred forty-four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the children of Israel:
At this point in the revelation, all Christians of the Gospel age have already been resurrected and are in heaven with Jesus.
The "great multitude" of people are not Christians of the Gospel age (before the resurrection/rapture), but are people who come to believe during "the great tribulation". They have missed out on the calling of God to become His adopted Sons (the opportunity doesn't last forever), and to be part of the bride/body of Christ, and so thay cannot become sons but instead become servants, and will serve God in His temple; whereas the resurrected Christians, now sons of God, are priests and kings in God's kingdom, not servants of God. Revelation 7:13-15 (WEB):
(13) One of the elders answered, saying to me, “These who are arrayed in the white robes, who are they, and from where did they come?”
(14) I told him, “My lord, you know.” He said to me, “These are those who came out of the great tribulation. They washed their robes, and made them white in the Lamb’s blood.
(15) Therefore they are before the throne of God, they serve him day and night in his temple. He who sits on the throne will spread his tabernacle over them.
(14) I told him, “My lord, you know.” He said to me, “These are those who came out of the great tribulation. They washed their robes, and made them white in the Lamb’s blood.
(15) Therefore they are before the throne of God, they serve him day and night in his temple. He who sits on the throne will spread his tabernacle over them.
The 144,000 are also referred to as servants, not sons (Revelation 7:3).
Yes, but the 144,000 Israelites are the first fruits of those who will live on the earth forever, as God's representantives on the earth. Revelation 14:1-4 (WEB):
(1) I saw, and behold, the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with him a number, one hundred forty-four thousand, having his name, and the name of his Father, written on their foreheads.
[The 144,000 are still on the earth.]
(2) I heard a sound from heaven, like the sound of many waters, and like the sound of a great thunder. The sound which I heard was like that of harpists playing on their harps.[The resurrected Christians are in heaven. They have harps - Revelation 5:8.]
(3) They sing a new song before the throne, and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the one hundred forty-four thousand, those who had been redeemed out of the earth.[No one on earth could learn the song except the redeemed 144,000 Jews.]
(4) These are those who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are those who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These were redeemed by Jesus from among men, the first fruits to God and to the Lamb.[The 144,000 are the first fruits of the redeemed from among mankind - after the saints of the Gospel Age and the great tribulation saints have been changed to have spirit bodies and a home in heaven.]
That's how I understand it.
I agree with that.
You omitted the New Jerusalem. So there is (1) the New Heavens (plural) and then there is (2) the New Earth. But it is (3) the New Jerusalem which is the eternal home of the Church (all redeemed Jews and Gentiles in the one Body of Christ prior to the Resurrection/Rapture), plus the OT saints. That is why God gave Abraham a vision of this city, and therefore he "looked for a city which hath foundations, whose Builder and Maker is God".
So Christians should ask themselves a couple of serious questions: "Why would God personally design and build a heavenly city which is 1500 cubic miles in dimension, made of heavenly gold and precious stones, and filled with umpteen mansions, if His children would be returned to earth eventually? And why would God make this heavenly city a heavenly body which will give light to the earth (by replacing the sun) unless it is His eternal dwelling place with Christ and the saints?"
The New Earth will indeed be inhabited by (a) redeemed and restored Israel and (b) the saved nations which will walk in the light of the heavenly city. Greater Israel will be the key nation on earth at that time, but the saints will live and reign with Christ eternally.
Yes I did and truth is I hardly ever think about the New Jerusalem, which is the Bride of Christ.
Which is "the home" of the Bride of Christ.
If you think about it carefully an inanimate city cannot be the Bride of Christ (who is the divine Husband). However its occupants can certainly be such (spiritually). But the city is simply personified as the Bride, and likened unto the Bride. Hence "as a" (likened unto) not "the" (actually) in this verse: And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. (Rev 21:2)
A lot of people do not read this verse carefully. Since the city itself has more than enough room for all the saints who have ever lived or will live, and the occupants are in fact the Body, the Bride, and the Building of Christ (those who have been saved by grace and washed in the blood of the Lamb). The city is likened unto a beautifully adorned bride, since it is a gorgeous city beyond any human comprehension. All the saints who have passed on (OT and NT) are presently there (meaning their souls and spirits are there). At the Resurrection/Rapture all will receive perfected, immortal, glorious, and glorified bodies for eternity.
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Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Your opening sentence seems to contradict the last one there....when the Revelation was given at the end of the first century, all the things prophesied, were yet future.
There was to be no resurrection of the elect (the only Christians to be taken to heaven) until Christ’s return. According to Paul, no one went to heaven until Christ’s “presence” at the beginning of the “time of the end”. Once Jesus was crowned as King, (seen by Daniel far into the future, Daniel 7:13-14) his first action authorised by his Father, was to cleanse the heavens of satan and his hordes (Revelation 12:7-12) and thereafter to begin the resurrection of his fellow “kings and priests”. (Revelation 20:6)
We also have to understand that “Christ’s presence” (parousia) is not the same as his “coming” as judge.
Jesus had to give a “sign” of his presence because it was not observable except by the events that coincided with it on the world scene. (Matthew 24:3-14) That was the beginning of the “last days”..... but no one will be uncertain of the time when he comes as judge. There are two separate events that most Christians have not discerned. Christ was to be present during the entire period of the last days, overseeing the work he assigned to his elect. (Matthew 24:14; Matthew 28:19-20)
Paul gives us the timing of important events....
1 Thessalonians 4:13, 15-18....
“Moreover, brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who are sleeping in death, so that you may not sorrow as the rest do who have no hope. 14 For if we have faith that Jesus died and rose again, so too God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep in death through Jesus.”. . . .
So those who take part in the “first resurrection” are already in their heavenly positions, having been resurrected from the time when Christ returned, and will accompany him when he manifests at the end of the last days to judge mankind......to reward the “sheep” and to eliminate the “goats” from existence.
“For this is what we tell you by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death; 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first.”. . . .
This tells us that those of the elect who are still on earth when Christ returns will not need to “sleep in death”, but will be raised immediately upon their death, because they have no need to wait. By the time the judgment comes, all the “sheep and goats” will be separated and the majority of the “bride” class will already be in their positions waiting to get the ball rolling by becoming the “new heavens” bringing the benefits of Kingdom rule to redeemed humanity as the nucleus of the “new earth”. They will be joined later by those in their graves who will come back to this life and be reunited with all their lost loved ones. (John 5:28-29)
“Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord. 18 So keep comforting one another with these words.”
So the last of the elect, still on earth when the judgment comes, will be whisked away to meet their Lord “in the air” joining their fellow members in bringing mankind to justice. Rewarding some, but removing others from life altogether. There is no such place as “hell”.....”the lake of fire” is simply a symbolic place where people never live life again. Eliminated from existence, it will be as if they were never here. They will not be remembered. (Isaiah 65:17)
I hope you understand that all spirit “sons of God” are “servants”.....even Jesus. (Acts 4:27)
All Christians are also servants of God, whether they reside in heaven or serve his interests on earth as they were meant to in the beginning.
If humans had never sinned, NO human would ever have needed to go to heaven because they were given the prospect of everlasting life here on earth. Christ only came to pay for the sins of Adam, the one who robbed us of the life that God purposed in the beginning. The earth was made for man.....and man for the earth. This was supposed to be our permanent home.
The very fact that there are “firstfruits” indicates that a secondary ‘crop’ was expected.
There are two groups in Revelation ch7. One finite group is seen in heaven with Jesus and the other unnumbered group are seen as survivors of the “great tribulation”, which occurs on earth.
Heaven is the dwelling place of spirit beings......earth is the dwelling place of material creatures...as it was meant to be.
If we understand the reason why God chose some humans to rule with his son, we will understand why there was a need for those ones to be “born again” as spirit creatures. Who better to rule mankind that those who understand the human condition....?...even Jesus.
That is how I understand it.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
I hate to break this to you, but the passage you quoted is mistranslated and reflects an agenda, rather than letting the original author's point come through. The translator treated the passage so badly, I almost didn't recognize it at first. This particular translation is very misleading, very misleading. Remember what the apostle Paul said. There will come a time when false teachers will come along and attempt to draw us away from the faith, tickling our ears. Well, I suspect the reason this particular translation sounds so compelling is because it tells you what you want to hear.
In my view, this passage has been re-worded so as to promote Gnostic teaching. While this translation has so clearly answered the question in the affirmative, that Jesus God, it also adds doctrine that neither Jesus nor the apostles taught. Be careful who you follow. Be careful of those who want to draw you into false teaching through trickery such as what I have seen in this translation.
Don't forget that the book of Revelation is full of symbols. Later verses say, Revelation 21:9-10 (WEB):
(9) One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls, who were loaded with the seven last plagues came, and he spoke with me, saying, “Come here. I will show you the wife, the Lamb’s bride.”
(10) He carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God,
(10) He carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God,
That implies that the new Jerusalem is the Lamb's bride, symbolically speaking. As Jesus said previously, in Revelation 3:12 (WEB):
(12) He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will go out from there no more. I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from my God, and my own new name.
That doesn't mean that overcomers wil be turned into stone to become part of a physcical building!
Jesus is descibed in Revelation as being a lamb, but he has never been or ever will be an actual lamb.Actually no Old Testament saints/prophets will be in heaven (and no dead saints are there now/yet), because God's calling of people to become His sons did not start until Jesus had come on the earth as a man.
John 1:12 (WEB):
(12) But as many as received him, to them he gave the right to become God’s children, to those who believe in his name:
Matthew 11:11 (WEB):(11) Most certainly I tell you, among those who are born of women there has not arisen anyone greater than John the Baptizer; yet he who is least in the Kingdom of Heaven is greater than he.
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I’ve looked it up in practically any and every translation I could find. They all say essentially the same thing. NASB, DARBY, KJV, NKJV, MOUNCE, and many more.
I don't think it does!
No, it tells us that those Christians that have already died will be resurrected first. It says nothing about those still alive having to wait until they die before they are resurrected.
No, it is saying that very soon after the dead in Christ have been resurrected, those still alive will be snatched away to join them. They don't have to wait until they die, they will be taken immediately after the dead in Christ have been resurrected. (Verse 17 is part of the same sentence as verse 16.) This is a quick event, announced by a shout (1 Thessalonians 4:16 - "the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with God’s trumpet"). There is not going to be a sudden loud announcement from heaven and Jesus descending to the earth to then do nothing but wait for decades observing people dying one by one, everything seeming to be exactly the same as normal. Why would Jesus need to descend for that?!
Revelation 7:9 (WEB):
(9) After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude, which no man could count, out of every nation and of all tribes, peoples, and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands.
Revelation 7:15 (WEB):(15) Therefore they are before the throne of God, they serve him day and night in his temple. He who sits on the throne will spread his tabernacle over them.
That implies that the Great Multitude are seen by John to be in heaven.
Lambano
Well-Known Member
Cady (and Zoe?), is there a specific part of the passage (Colossians 1:15-20) you think was mistranslated?
I'm looking at the Greek breakdown of the passage in Blue Letter Bible and the translators' notes in NetBible, and so far, I can't find any fault with SBG's translation. In verse 19 (literally, "... in Him, all the Fullness was well-pleased to dwell", though this translation added the assumption that "the Fullness" is God's), SBG's translation is actually better (in my opinion) than NASB's change of a verb to a noun ("For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him"). I might take issue with changing a passive verb in verse 16 ("all things were created") to an active verb requiring the addition of an assumed Subject ("God created all things"). Other than that, I don't see the problem.
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bbyrd009
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well, id sure read it from the lex and decide for myself, without some scribe in the middle, bc that translation is a mess imo
Colossians 1:15 Lexicon: He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
Colossians 1:15 Lexicon: He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
the truth of the LORD . A govt that can do that with the fourth branch of govt known as cooperations
WELL it can also have cooperations faithfully shut out anyone who does not conform nor comply to said agenda .
Try and see it like this , Those who refuse the agenda will not be able to function , aka buy or sell in such a nation state as this .
Now ask yourselves , DOESNT that SYSTEM SOUND REAL FAMILIAR . A hint , and no man could buy or sell
lest he had the mark ............conforms to , worships the image of the beast which can speak .
PS , i just watched a video . A lady was on stage and
then she had her own IMAGE appear and it could talk even in japanese. The image of the lady spoke
Now try and remember What is written in revelation . And he had power to give life unto the IMAGE of the beast
SO that it could SPEAK ...................
IT sure aint hard to see what days we are in my friends and exactly where its all headed under
the FOURTH REICH or in biblical terms , THE BEAST SYSTEM . ITs all being digitalized even now as we speak .
OH YEAH TIME IS RUNNING OUT and many have already bought the every growing all inclusive many path
lets tolerate all sin JUST NOT TRUTH that corrects , LIE . ITS A DELUSOIN FOLKS and its gathering all to merge as one .
ONE LANGUAGE , ONE MIND , ONE HEART that does the will of the beast and of the dragon who giveth HIM his seat and great authority .
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
YES JESUS IS . LET THE LORD BE PRAISED .
Speaking of IMAGE , my advice is all had better test the image of this so called jesus that many are now preaching in churches .
REST ASSURED it goes against the biblical JESUS and IT AINT THE Image of GOD but rather of the god who always desired to be as GOD .
THE SERPENT , aka that ol dragon . Folks bess open bibles and then stay glued IN BIBLES .
bbyrd009
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well, it is tempting to insert “Jesus” there, yes
and prolly works fine for a first approach even
Yes it is full of symbols, but the New Jerusalem is an ACTUAL heavenly city. But Christ does not marry gold, silver, and precious stones. His Bride is redeemed people.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
@stunnedbygrace
False teachings presented by the subject translation:
1. Christ existed before anything was created. - False
2. He made things we can see and the things we can't see. - False
3. He existed before anything else. - False
4. God existed in Christ "in all his fulness." - False
5. God reconciled everything to himself - False
6. He made peace with everything in heaven and on earth. - False
In order to understand Paul correctly, we must become properly orientated to his flow of thought and his subject matter. For instance, if we mistakenly think that Paul is talking about the created order in which we now live, we will draw the wrong conclusions from his text. Paul is NOT talking about the Genesis of creation, when God created the heavens and the earth. (Genesis 1:1) Paul is talking about the NEW creation. He refers to the current creation as "the domain of darkness"; and he refers to the New creation as "the kingdom of light" (1:12) and "the kingdom of his beloved son. (1:13) And those in Christ are being transferred from one kingdom to the other.
Colossians 1:15-20
15 He is the image of the invisible God,
The subject translation adds "visible", which is not in the original text. And although this is a reasonable extrapolation, it isn't Paul's focus and it changes the meaning. To my ears, the subject translation makes Jesus Christ out to be a visible representation of God's external form as if God had a form.
Instead, Paul asserts that Jesus is the moral likeness of God. Each of them want the same thing; they both are morally courageous; they both are righteous and good; they both are forgiving and merciful; they both are patient; they both judge rightly, which is why Jesus is qualified to rule over the new creation.
the firstborn of all creation.
The subject translation has "he existed before anything was created", which is not only false, Paul doesn't say anything close to this. The term "firstborn" can either refer to the eldest child, or it can refer one who is preeminent in rank. Paul's point is this, with regard to the new kingdom of his beloved son, the new kingdom of light, Jesus is preeminent in rank. And here "creation" refers to the new kingdom that God, through Christ is creating. Jesus is the firstborn son of the new kingdom.
16 For by Him all things were created,
Again, the phrase "all things" draws our attention toward the formation of the original creation. But Paul isn't talking about the formation of the original creation, he is talking about the formation of the new creation, which is populated by those whom he redeemed (1:14) The Greek phrase "ta panta" can refer to "things" but in this context, it refers to people. Jesus is the agent of the formation of the new Creation, the new people, who will populate his new kingdom.
both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible,
Paul is attempting to incorporate and include all those whom God will save. Jesus is the firstborn, and preeminent over all believers down through history. This not only includes Gentiles "in the heavens" it also includes Jews "on the earth." This not only includes contemporary believers, (visible) it also includes believers from both the past and the future. (invisible)
Paul isn't talking about the literal heavens and the literal earth. He is speaking metaphorically. The Jews were known as the people of the land (earth) and so this makes the Gentiles "the stars of the heavens", an idea taken from Genesis 15:5, where God tells Abraham that his descendants will be as plentiful as the stars of heaven.
whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities —all things have been created through Him and for Him.
Here again, Paul is not talking about rulers and authorities of darkness, he is talking about rulers and authorities of light. Whatever rulers and authorities we might find in the new kingdom, all of them will have been created through him and for him.
17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
Here again, "all things" refers to all those who will be found in the new kingdom. (ta panta = people not things in this context)
18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.
Historically speaking, Jesus was the first person whom God resurrected, because Jesus has a special place and a special role to play in the new kingdom. When the time comes, all of those destined for life in the new kingdom God will resurrect at the call of Jesus Christ.
19 For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him,
Here the term "fulness" speaks about each and every believer whom God will save. It was the Father's good pleasure that all of them should dwell in Christ.
20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.
Here again, all things refers to people, not things. God reconciles people, not things. God makes peace with people, not things. God is reconciled to the people of the earth; but also to the other descendants of Abraham symbolically referenced as the stars of heaven (Genesis 15:5)
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