This really grabbed me today!

[Lambano]

Go Lambano go! Wield that sword!
3 We are human, but we don’t wage war as humans do. 4 We use God’s mighty weapons, not worldly weapons, to knock down the strongholds of human reasoning and to destroy false arguments.

Nah, this one's too easy. There has to be an ambush or some landmines somewhere.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Nah, this one's too easy. There has to be an ambush or some landmines somewhere.

Lol. You have no idea how much your post strengthened me and took away my weariness. I was crying tears of praise and I yelled, look at him go, Lord, the one whose hands you trained for war! Look at him go! And the hair on my arms raised up and the Holy Spirit jumped up in me.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

There has to be an ambush

Always! But men will lay nets and get caught in their own nets.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

this one's too easy.

First I was crying for joy, now I can’t stop laughing! I’ve said that same exact thing - that was too easy. That’s what happens when it is given to you by the Spirit in you. Oh you’ve given me BOTH joy and laughter this evening.

 

[Johann]

Not for you to decide who is the transcendent creator or not.
You are adding to God's word.
Stop playing games
J.

Joh 1:14 And the Dvar Hashem took on gufaniyut (corporeality) and made his sukkah, his Mishkan (Tabernacle) among us [YESHAYAH 7:14], and we [Shlichim, 1Y 1:1-2] gazed upon his Kavod [SHEMOT 33:18; 40:34; YESHAYAH 60:1-2], the Shechinah of the Ben Yachid from Elohim HaAv, full of Hashem's Chesed v’Emes.
Joh 1:15 And Yochanan gives solemn edut (testimony) about him and has cried out, This was he about whom I said, Hu HaBah (He who comes [Gn 49:10; Ezek 21:27]) after me is really before me in priority, because, before I came to be, he was (Yn 8:58).
Joh 1:16 For from the kol melo (all the plentitude) of him we all received Chesed upon Chesed.
OJB

Who is the D'var?

J.

 

[keithr]

When you use the indefinite article, along with the capitalized word God, you seem to suggest that there is more than transcendent creator, which is false.

Yes, sorry, that was a slip of the finger (or force of habit). I should have typed "Jesus is a god to us". I'll edit the post to correct it.

If we were to say that Jesus is "a god" in that sense, this is true, especially because Jesus refers to himself in this way. (Refer to John 10:32-35)

Actually, in that passage, he referred to himself as "the Son of God" rather than "a god" (verse 36)! He was denying that he was God. The Jews wanted to stone him because they interpreted Jesus saying "I and the Father are one" as Jesus making himself to be God, but Jesus corrected them, denying that he was God and declaring that he was the Son of God.

 

[CadyandZoe]

All right; I'll bite. Sure he did. To whom was John referring in verse 14?

And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us; and we saw His glory, glory as of the only from the Father, full of grace and truth.

And the word (thing) became flesh (person)

 

[Johann]

Yes, sorry, that was a slip of the finger (or force of habit). I should have typed "Jesus is a god to us". I'll edit the post to correct it.


Actually, in that passage, he referred to himself as "the Son of God" rather than "a god" (verse 36)! He was denying that he was God. The Jews wanted to stone him because they interpreted Jesus saying "I and the Father are one" as Jesus making himself to be God, but Jesus corrected them, denying that he was God and declaring that he was the Son of God.

So is Christ, the Ben of YHVH, "lesser" than YHVH?

Joh 10:36 Can you say of the One whom HaAv set apart as HaKadosh and sent into the Olam Hazeh that he commits Chillul Hashem because I said, Ben HaElohim Ani Hu? [YIRMEYAH 1:5]

J.

 

[keithr]

Hahaha - You put into those few words what I was thinking

When someone responds with "Blah, blah blah", it makes me think of that person covering their eyes and ears and refusing to take notice of what was written, because they know it suggests that their understanding is wrong. Also saying, "Arguing verses against other verses" as though that is somehow wrong, seems to me to demonstrate a lack of respect and love for God's word. It's a bit ironic to write that in a Bible Study discussion forum, especially when in stunnedbygrace's next post she too quotes Bible verses.

 

[Johann]

And the word (thing) became flesh (person)

Bereshis (in the Beginning) was the Dvar Hashem [YESHAYAH 55:11; BERESHIS 1:1], and the Dvar Hashem was agav (along with) Hashem [MISHLE 8:30; 30:4], and the Dvar Hashem was nothing less, by nature, than Elohim! [Psa 56:11(10); Yn 17:5; Rev. 19:13]
Joh 1:2 Bereshis (in the Beginning) this Dvar Hashem was with Hashem [Prov 8:30].
Joh 1:3 All things through him came to be, and without him came to be not one thing which came into being. [Ps 33:6,9; Prov 30:4]
Joh 1:4 In him was Chayyim (Life) and the Chayyim (Life) was the Ohr (Light) of Bnei Adam. [TEHILLIM 36:10 (9)]
OJB

Joh 1:14 And the Dvar Hashem took on gufaniyut (corporeality) and made his sukkah, his Mishkan (Tabernacle) among us [YESHAYAH 7:14], and we [Shlichim, 1Y 1:1-2] gazed upon his Kavod [SHEMOT 33:18; 40:34; YESHAYAH 60:1-2], the Shechinah of the Ben Yachid from Elohim HaAv, full of Hashem's Chesed v’Emes.
Joh 1:5 And the Ohr shines in the choshech [TEHILLIM 18:28], and the choshech did not grasp it. [YESHAYAH 9:1]
OJB.


14–18. The Incarnate Word’s revelation of the Father
14. And the Word was made flesh] Or, became flesh. This is the gulf which separates S. John from Philo. Philo would have assented to what precedes; from this he would have shrunk. From Joh_1:9-13 we have the subjective side; the inward result of the Word’s coming to those who receive Him. Here we have the objective; the coming of the Word as a historical fact. The Logos, existing from all eternity with the Father (Joh_1:1-2), not only manifested His power in Creation (Joh_1:3) and in influence on the minds of men (Joh_1:9; Joh_1:12-13), but manifested Himself in the form of a man of flesh.

The important point is that the Word became terrestrial and material: and thus the inferior part of man is mentioned, the flesh, to mark His humiliation. He took the whole of man’s nature, including its frailty. “The majestic fulness of this brief sentence,” the Word became flesh, which affirms once for all the union of the Infinite and the finite, “is absolutely unique.” The Word became flesh; did not merely assume a body: and the Incarnate Word is one, not two personalities. Thus various heresies, Gnostic and Eutychian, are refuted by anticipation.
dwelt among us] Literally, tabernacled among us, dwelt as in a tent. The Tabernacle had been the seat of the Divine Presence in the wilderness: when God became incarnate in order to dwell among the Chosen People, ‘to tabernacle’ was a natural word to use. The word forms a link between this Gospel and the Apocalypse: it occurs here, four times in the Apocalypse, and nowhere else. Our translators render it simply ‘dwell,’ which is inadequate. Rev_7:15; Rev_12:12; Rev_13:6; Rev_21:3.
among us] In the midst of those of us who witnessed His life.


ὁ
the
λογος
G3056
N-NSM
λόγος
something said


Part of Speech: Noun
Case: Nominative (subject; predicate nominative)
Number: Singular
Gender: Masculine


Part of Speech: definite article
Case: Nominative (subject; predicate nominative)
Number: Singular
Gender: Masculine

Show me where you get "thing" from...

J.

 

[Johann]

person covering their eyes and ears and refusing to take notice of what was written, because they know it suggests that their understanding is wrong. Also saying, "Arguing verses against other verses" as though that is somehow wrong, seems to me to demonstrate a lack of respect and love for God's word. It's a bit ironic to write that in a Bible Study discussion forum, especially when in stunnedbygrace's next post she too quotes Bible verses.

Women has a tendency to do that, remember who was first deceived, so ignore the "blah, blah" and be careful you don't do the same.
J.

 

[keithr]

Jesus is the Word. The concept is the physical manifestation of a thought or idea.

Or should that be, 'God's word was manifested in Jesus'? See

.

 

[Johann]

Or should that be, 'God's word was manifested in Jesus'? See

.

Nope, going in the opposite ditch in a desperate attempt to deny the Triune Godhead and YouTube ain't going to help.
J.

 

[keithr]

So is Christ, the Ben of YHVH, "lesser" than YHVH?

Yes.

John 10:29 (WEB):

(29) My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all. ...​

John 14:28 (WEB):

(28) You heard how I told you, ‘I go away, and I come to you.’ If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I said ‘I am going to my Father;’ for the Father is greater than I.​

 

[Johann]

Nah, this one's too easy. There has to be an ambush or some landmines somewhere.

Lambano, make sure you get your motivation and pathos from the Father through Christ Jesus and not the eulogy of men and women, the "likes" and "trophies" a subtle motivator.
Shalom
J.

 

[Johann]

Yes.

John 10:29 (WEB):

(29) My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all. ...​

John 14:28 (WEB):

(28) You heard how I told you, ‘I go away, and I come to you.’ If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I said ‘I am going to my Father;’ for the Father is greater than I.​

Interesting, quoting "proof texts" in a desperate attempt to make the scriptures say what it does NOT say.



Joh 10:28 And I give to them Chayyei Olam, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. [YESHAYAH 66:22]
Joh 10:29 That which HaAv of me has given me is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch out of the hand of HaAv.
Joh 10:30 I and HaAv are echad. [DEVARIM 6:4; TEHILLIM 33:6; BERESHIS 2:24]


Joh 10:26 But you do not have emunah (faith), because you do not belong to my Tzon.
Joh 10:27 My Tzon hear my voice, and I have da'as of them, and they follow me.
Joh 10:28 And I give to them Chayyei Olam, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. [YESHAYAH 66:22]
OJB

[for my Father is greater than I] Because the Father is greater than I. Therefore Christ’s going to Him is gain.

This was a favorite text with the Arians, as implying the inferiority of the Son.

Are you an Arian, Christ Jesus is inferior, "a god" but not ho Kurion mou kai ho Theos mou?

J.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Jesus is the Word. The concept is the physical manifestation of a thought or idea. God is Spirit: "God is spirit, and the people who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.” John 4:24

Jesus is the physical manifestation of God: "Now the Word [Greek: logos] became flesh and took up residence among us. We saw his glory—the glory of the one and only, full of grace and truth, who came from the Father." John 1:14

If you think that there can be only one, transcendent creator you need to expand your thinking. John 1:3, "All things were created by him [Jesus], and apart from him not one thing was created that has been created."

@stunnedbygrace @Lambano @Johann

Unfortunately, the church has suffered under the false doctrine of Trinitarianism, and those who invented it, enforced it with threats of pain and death. Also, down through the years, the church has used the Trinity Doctrine to sus out the heretics among us. For these reasons, the Trinity Doctrine is like an electrified fence, and we touch it at our peril. I know the danger I face here, so please believe me when I say that I do not take this subject lightly. I am sacrificing my "on-line" career to help you gain a knowledge of the truth.

The church has been taught, under penalty of death, that three beings existed from the beginning. Thus, Trinitarians interpret and teach John's gospel according to Trinitarian suppositions. We are taught, for instance, that "the Word" is but one of three distinct individuals among the "Godhead." We are taught that in the beginning was "the Word", the second person of the Trinity, and that He was in the beginning with God, the first person of the Trinity. We are taught that Jesus is the incarnate second person of the Trinity.

First, the idea that there can be only one transcendent creator is not up for debate. The idea is called "a first principle", a fundamental concept that is true by definition. The Bible clearly teaches this idea in passages such as the following. "To you it was shown that you might know that the Lord, He is God; there is no other besides Him." Deuteronomy 4:35

There are, what the Bible calls "so-called gods", which are spirit beings and mere men. In his epistle to the Corinthians, Paul argues that is is permissible to eat meat offered to an idol, because there is no such thing as an idol. The so-called god they worship doesn't exist. What they offer, they actually offer to demons he says. In other words, the meat is just meat. In that context Paul writes the following:

"4 Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and that there is no God but one. 5 For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him. 1Corinthians 8:4-6.

I take note of the fact that according to Paul, God the Father is the cause of all things, and we exist for him. If Paul were a Trinitarian, surely he would have said that the Second person of the Trinity created all things, not the first person of the Trinity. But Paul says that the Father created all things. The son is not the source of all things, but, according to Paul, the son is the reason for all things. Not only did the father create us for Jesus; we enter into his kingdom through Jesus.

Second, our translations, purposely reflect Trinitarian doctrine. (Who wants to touch the electrified fence?) But if we allow ourselves to think about the passage a bit more, we might see the subject of John's first paragraph is "the word" and how it relates to God. Everywhere else in the New Testament, the Greek term "logos" has a wide range of meaning centered on the activities of reason and rationality: word, account, reasoning, giving testimony, telling a story, and etc.

Thus, as we sus out John's meaning in his first paragraph, we might try out different aspects of the term "logos". Our translators offered one

"In the beginning was "the word"
"In the beginning was "the reason"
"In the beginning was "the promise"
"In the beginning was "the script"
"In the beginning was "the argument"

In any case, the term "logos" used literally, refers to an aspect of rational thought. And so the first paragraph the pronouns should all read "it" rather than "he." For instance, "[It] was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through [it] and apart from [it] nothing has come into being that has come into being."

Later in the text, (vs 14) John refers to Jesus as "the word", not because Jesus is the second person of a Trinity, but because Jesus is the reason why everything exists. God has created everything in this world with Jesus in mind. Jesus is the reason for everything. Everything was made for him. Before God created the world, he decided to give Jesus a central role in all of creation. If Logo means "promise" in this context, then Jesus is that promise in bodily form. If Logos means "reason", then Jesus is that reason become flesh. If Logos means "script", then Jesus is that script become flesh.

The concept of a "second person of the Trinity" is superimposed on the text. Paul says that the Father brought all things into existence for his son. And he will establish a new kingdom of light through his son, who suffered and died that they might live.

Also, and this is very important, Jesus and The father share the same identity in that, according to the New Testament authors, Jesus is God as expressed in the medium of a human life. If we picture God as the author of a novel, then we understand that the author (God) wrote himself into his novel (Jesus.) According to John, Jesus is the exegesis of God. John 1:18. No one has seen God at any time, but Jesus makes God accessible and understandable to us. According to Paul, the man Jesus is "the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature." Hebrews 1:3

 

[keithr]

Interesting, quoting "proof texts" in a desperate attempt to make the scriptures say what it does NOT say.

I was simply quoting Scripture to explain why I answered "yes". It was not a desperate attempt to try and make God's word to us say something other than it actually says. I quoted what it says, mentioning the translation that I was quoting from. Your mixing of English and Hebrew on the other hand, is a bit confusing, especially when the original manuscript was written in Greek! Why are you quoting from the Orthodox Jewish Bible?

Joh 10:28 And I give to them Chayyei Olam, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. [YESHAYAH 66:22]
Joh 10:29 That which HaAv of me has given me is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch out of the hand of HaAv.
Joh 10:30 I and HaAv are echad. [DEVARIM 6:4; TEHILLIM 33:6; BERESHIS 2:24]

Or in English, John 10:28-29 (WEB):

(28) I give eternal life to them. They will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
(29) My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all. No one is able to snatch them out of my Father’s hand.​

The Cambridge Bible Notes comment for verse 29 says:

This enforces the previous assertion. ‘To snatch them out of My hand, he must snatch them out of My Father’s hand; and My Father is greater than all:’ even than the Son (John 14:28). But the reading is not certain. The most probable text gives, that which the Father hath given Me is greater than all. The unity of the Church is strength invincible.​

[for my Father is greater than I] Because the Father is greater than I. Therefore Christ’s going to Him is gain.

This was a favorite text with the Arians, as implying the inferiority of the Son.

Are you an Arian, Christ Jesus is inferior, "a god" but not ho Kurion mou kai ho Theos mou?

I believe that Jesus is God's (YHVH's) only begotten son. Jesus is not YHVH. They are two seperate beings, just as you and I are two seperate beings. YHVH is greater than Jesus - by how much I can't tell you!

Isaiah 46:9 (WEB):

(9) Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is no other. I am God, and there is none like me.​

1 Corinthians 8:6-7 (WEB):

(6) yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we live through him.
(7) However, that knowledge isn’t in all men. ...​

 

[Lambano]

Lambano, make sure you get your motivation and pathos from the Father through Christ Jesus and not the eulogy of men and women, the "likes" and "trophies" a subtle motivator.
Shalom
J.

Indeed, I am well-aware of some of my issues with Pride and Vanity, though the depth of my sin is probably far worse than I realize. C.S. Lewis notes that Vanity, the need for the approval of men, is one of the least cancerous forms of Pride because it is motivated by internal feelings of inferiority rather than superiority.

I invite all those participating in this thread to examine themselves.

(And yes, that's an indirect accusation, and yes, I'm doing it intentionally to be irritating. But the invitation to self-examination is real.)

 

[Johann]

I was simply quoting Scripture to explain why I answered "yes". It was not a desperate attempt to try and make God's word to us say something other than it actually says. I quoted what it says, mentioning the translation that I was quoting from. Your mixing of English and Hebrew on the other hand, is a bit confusing, especially when the original manuscript was written in Greek! Why are you quoting from the Orthodox Jewish Bible?

I am acquainted with Hebrew, that is why I use the OJB.
Do you actually look up the morphology of important words?
J.