This really grabbed me today!

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Johann

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(And yes, that's an indirect accusation, and yes, I'm doing it intentionally to be irritating. But the invitation to self-examination is real.)
I am past the stage of being irritated, and we all need to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling.


2Co_13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Gal_6:4 But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another.

1Th_5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

I concur with your post Lambano as well as C.S. Lewis, especially the Screw Tape letters.

J.
 
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CadyandZoe

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No, you’ve given yourself away on this. Gird up your loins like a man and stick to it.

5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me

24 “Father, I want those you have given meto be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

He was in the fiery furnace with Daniel, one looking like a son of man, He is the “angel of the Lord” in the OT, and all the law and prophets speak of Him. And then,
10 He came into the very world he created, but the world didn’t recognize him.

Stunnedbygrace, I don't know you as a heretic hunter. This is new to me. I hope you will eventually come to understand that Trinitarianism is the false doctrine I oppose, not the Biblical doctrine on which we both can agree. I hope you can see that when we bring a particular narrative TO a text, we are going to see that narrative supported there. We find it there because we brought it with us. But this is not the way to learn our faith. We are seeking to know what Jesus and his apostles taught; we want them to give us the proper perspective and understanding.

If we bring Trinity doctrine to a narrow subset of a larger passage, we can find a way to interpret John's words to support Trinity doctrine. According to Trinity doctrine, what is the glory that Jesus had before the world began? Who knows? Whatever Jesus was like as the Second Person of the Trinity before he condescended to become a human being, he will return to that state.

But according to the rest of the upper-room discourse, what is the glory the Father is about to give to his son Jesus? Speaking of his crucifixion Jesus says, "“Now is the Son of Man glorified, and God is glorified in Him; if God is glorified in Him, God will also glorify Him in Himself, and will glorify Him immediately." In other words, both the father and the son will be glorified in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. When Jesus rises to sit at the right hand of the Father, then Jesus will be glorified. In this context, Jesus is speaking of an exalted status that the Father will grant to the human being Jesus. And, this is very important, Jesus prays that the Father will grant this same exalted status to his apostles, who are also human beings.

"The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one; I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me. Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world." John 17:22-24

Unless we are willing to think that Jesus is asking the Father to elevate the Apostles to "Godhead" status, making them the fourth, fifth, sixth etc. member of the Godhead, then we must admit that glorification, in this context, refers to the nature, quality, and status of being morally perfect, leaders of Jesus' new kingdom. Jesus isn't asking God to restore him to his pre-human condition; he is asking the father to make him glorious by bestowing honor, and praise on him through the resurrection and ascension.
 
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CadyandZoe

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Not for you to decide who is the transcendent creator or not.
You are adding to God's word.
Stop playing games
J.
I maintain that it was men, captured by Greek philosophy, that invented the Trinity doctrine and imposed it on the church through threats of violence.
Nonetheless, it was Yahweh who slowly taught Israel, and the rest of the world with them, the Biblical view of monotheism, which postulates a single, transcendent, spirit being, who created and maintains everything that exists. Speaking of this transcendent being Paul the apostle says,

[A]nd He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, ‘For we also are His children.’ Acts 17:26-28

So then, if we live, and move, and have our existence in God, then there can be only one God.

The Trinity Doctrine has NO room for a spirit being in which we live, move and have our existence.
 
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Johann

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I maintain that it was men, captured by Greek philosophy, that invented the Trinity doctrine and imposed it on the church through threats of violence.
Nonetheless, it was Yahweh who slowly taught Israel, and the rest of the world with them, the Biblical view of monotheism, which postulates a single, transcendent, spirit being, who created and maintains everything that exists. Speaking of this transcendent being Paul the apostle says,
Seems like you miss Christ Jesus in all your Old Covenant quotations which brings me to the question.
Where is Christ in the The Old Testament contains 39 (Protestant), 46 (Catholic), or more (Orthodox and other) books, divided, very broadly, into the Pentateuch (Torah), the historical books, the "wisdom" books and the prophets.
Show me, in the Tanack, the "missing" Messiah.

Secondly, I am not here to impose upon you the Triune Godhead, I am "forced" to believe this from scriptures...

When we look at
the first man lying on the
ground dead (Gn. 5:5), the
Bible is showing us the first
sinner of a sinning/dying
epoch which only the
Moshiach's death brings to an
end (2C 5:14). But the point
here is that humankind in Gn
1:27 is “HaAdam” in Hebrew,
and that verse shows Man as
having both singularity and
plurality (oto and otam, Gn
1:27), thus reflecting his
Maker, Elohim, Who also has
singularity and plurality in
His complexity (compare
echad in Gn 2:24 and Dt 6:4).
Gn 1:26 uses a majestic plural
but the Doctrine of Hashem’s
Kedushah Meshuleshet
(Threefold Holiness) is seen in
Elohim (Gn 1:1) and the Dvar
Hashem (Gn 1:3) and the
Ruach Elohim (Gn 1:2)
engaged in the work of
creation. When we look at the
original language in Zohar
Vol.3 Ha'azinu page 288b, we
see the text which comments
on Daniel 7:13, where the Bar
Moshiach comes to the
Ancient of Days. The Zohar
says, "The Ancient One is
described as being two (TAVRESH-YUD-FINAL
NOON,Aramaic for "two")." G-d
and the Moshiach, called by
Daniel "the Ancient of Days"
and "the Son of Man" are
obviously a picture of G-d as
"two" in the Bible, and the
Zohar owns up to this fact,
calling G-d "two." Two
sentences prior to that on the
same page, the original
language of the text of the
Zohar says, "The Ancient Holy
One [i.e. G-d, Daniel 7:13] is
found with three (TAVLAMMED-TAV, Aramaic for
"three") heads or chiefs (RESHYUD-SHIN-YUD-FINAL NOON
Aramaic for "heads"), which are
united in One (CHET-DALET
Aramaic for "one")." Here we
have a picture in the Zohar of
the raz (mystery) of G-d's
unity, the distinct havayot
(subsistences, modes of being)
in Adonoi Echad. G-d is
echad,one, but a complex one,
not three g-ds, only Hashem,
One, but with Hashem’s
Kedushah Meshuleshet
(Threefold holiness, Isa 6:3).
An excerpt from the OJB

Should you read ancient rabbinical writings even the rabbis had to wrestle with the Shema, to this day, I might add.

J.
 

CadyandZoe

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Since when did you decide to start perverting Bible truth?

Do you see how stupid it sounds when someone says "He didn't say "Jesus" or "Christ" was with God"? All an honest and sincere person needs to do is read the entire first chapter of the Gospel of John to see that it is all about the Lord Jesus Christ, the eternal Word of God, the Creator, the only begotten Son of God, God manifest in the flesh, who is also the Lamb of God who took away the sin of the world.

Within the Godhead, it was God the Word who was designated to be the Creator. Which does not mean that the Father and the Holy Spirit were not involved. Father, Son and Holy Spirit were all involved in creation, but the work of creation was given to the Son. And that is why we read what is written in Hebrews 1:8-10:


But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
Let's take a closer look at Hebrews 1:9, where the Psalmist seems to suggest that God has a God. How can God have a God above him?
In order to understand this Psalm, we need to know that in ancient times, the monarchs of great kingdoms were called "Gods and Sons of God." Jesus makes this point in John chapter 10. In that chapter Jesus argues that it is fitting that the messiah be a human being since human beings have always served as "sons of God." Quoting Psalm 82, he reminds the Jews that God himself referred to his judges and rulers as "Gods and sons of the Most High." Psalm 82:6

The same is true of Psalm 45, where the psalmist refers to a man, a human king as "O God", which is why Paul quotes the passage. His argument is that the humanity of Jesus doesn't disqualify him to be the messiah, because the messiah was always going to be a man. The "O God" of Psalm 45, himself has a God he worships, which is adonai Yahweh. Psalm 45 is not talking about a second person of a Godhead; it is talking about a Jewish, Israelite, king and he has addressed his poem to the current king living at the time.

While we both acknowledge the subject matter of the first chapter of John to be Jesus Christ, I encourage you to avoid the temptation to "read back" into the beginning of the chapter what comes later in the chapter. John's defense of the Gospel progresses step-by-step through a series of propositions and it builds to a conclusion by the end of the chapter. I noted that John didn't give "the word" a name in the first paragraph. But I also wish to note now, that John didn't hesitate to specify the name of John the Baptist, even as early as verse 6. The passage mentions John by name in verse 6, but doesn't mention Jesus by name until verse 17.

It serves John's purpose to mention that the word became flesh in verse 14, even before he mentions Jesus Christ by name three verses later. The argument builds idea upon idea as the gospel progresses. We should wonder why John felt compelled to mention the flesh in the first place. What did the Jews believe concerning the coming messiah at the time John wrote his gospel? I think it is a fair conclusion, based on the first two chapters of Paul's epistle to the Hebrews that the Jews believed the coming messiah to be an angel or a theophany, not a human being. Thus, in the first letter of John we read his assertion that anyone who refuses to believe that the messiah came in the flesh is antichrist. 1 John 2:22

It's not an accident that the preamble of John's gospel reads like the opening chapter of Genesis, and so it behooves us to wonder about the correlation between John 1:1 and the Genesis assertion that God spoke everything into existence. A review of history finds that God speaks everything into existence, and John begins his Gospel with the assertion that the word was there in the beginning with John, not a second person of a trinity, but an authoritative order for light, etc. to suddenly exist. And so, it is no accident that John's gospel progresses on the subject matter of light and how mankind find life through enlightenment and how the darkness was not able to extinguish the light.

It isn't until verse 14-17 that John personifies the light and the life in a single human being, Jesus Christ.
 
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Ziggy

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If the son was at his Father's side during the entire creative process, which included the things in heaven, (Colossians 1:16) then God was most assuredly NOT talking to himself.....There is only one Creator and it is Jehovah.....his "master workman" was at his side following his Father's instructions as any servant of God must do.

Proverbs 8 is called "Wisdom Personified" and gives confirmation that God was not alone in the creative process. (scholars agree that this is speaking about God's son in his prehuman existence)

“4 The Lord created me at the beginning of His way,
Before His works of old. . . . .
30 Then I was beside Him, as a master workman;
And I was His delight daily,
Rejoicing always before Him,
31 Rejoicing in the world, His earth,
And having my delight in the sons of mankind." (NASB)


The term "master workman" here carries the idea of an "artificer, architect, master workman, skilled workman" (Strongs)
God was giving his son a magnificent gift......creation, which Colossians 1:16 says came "through him and for him".

If you cling to a lie, contradictions are bound to surface. If "all scripture is inspired of God", then NO contradictions can come up...only misinterpretations.
I thought this was concerning the woman "Wisdom" ?
Proverbs chapter 8

Pro 8:12 I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions.
Pro 8:13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.
Pro 8:14 Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom: I am understanding; I have strength.
Pro 8:15 By me kings reign, and princes decree justice.
Pro 8:16 By me princes rule, and nobles, even all the judges of the earth.
Pro 8:17 I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.
Pro 8:18 Riches and honour are with me; yea, durable riches and righteousness.
Pro 8:19 My fruit is better than gold, yea, than fine gold; and my revenue than choice silver.
Pro 8:20 I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment:
Pro 8:21 That I may cause those that love me to inherit substance; and I will fill their treasures.
Pro 8:22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
Pro 8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
Pro 8:24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
Pro 8:25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:
Pro 8:26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
Pro 8:27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
Pro 8:28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
Pro 8:29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
Pro 8:30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;
Pro 8:31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.


Luk 2:40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.
 
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GISMYS_7

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Three but one!!! Almighty God IS Father Son and Holy Spirit just as man is body, soul and spirit = three but one!!
 
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Johann

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I maintain that it was men, captured by Greek philosophy, that invented the Trinity doctrine and imposed it on the church through threats of violence.
Nonetheless, it was Yahweh who slowly taught Israel, and the rest of the world with them, the Biblical view of monotheism, which postulates a single, transcendent, spirit being, who created and maintains everything that exists. Speaking of this transcendent being Paul the apostle says,

[A]nd He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, ‘For we also are His children.’ Acts 17:26-28

So then, if we live, and move, and have our existence in God, then there can be only one God.

The Trinity Doctrine has NO room for a spirit being in which we live, move and have our existence.
If you do a little homework you will find that the Triune Godhead did not start with Christianity.
J.
 

stunnedbygrace

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When someone responds with "Blah, blah blah", it makes me think of that person covering their eyes and ears and refusing to take notice of what was written, because they know it suggests that their understanding is wrong. Also saying, "Arguing verses against other verses" as though that is somehow wrong, seems to me to demonstrate a lack of respect and love for God's word. It's a bit ironic to write that in a Bible Study discussion forum, especially when in stunnedbygrace's next post she too quotes Bible verses. o_O:confused:

Im sure my understanding is wrong and incomplete still on many things. I’d probably bet money on it. But that’s not why I said blah, blah, blah. I said it because I’ve heard your particular strongholds and human reasonings many, many times.

As to pitting some of the words from God against other of the words from God being a show of love and respect for Gods words and refusing to pit His words against each other being a show of disrespect, it’s the opposite that’s true.
 
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stunnedbygrace

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Trinitarianism, and those who invented it, enforced it with threats of pain and death.

Although I’m not a trinitarian, this IS a good reason to be suspicious of it, or to at least be suspicious of the men who would kill others over it. It’s the thief who comes to kill and destroy, not men who are led by the Spirit or claim to walk IN the Spirit and hear from God.
 
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stunnedbygrace

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It's a bit ironic to write that in a Bible Study discussion forum, especially when in stunnedbygrace's next post she too quotes Bible verses.

To reiterate, the blah, blah, blah was not in response to scripture being quoted. It was in response to scripture being pitted against other scripture, which is a bit like a house divided.
 

stunnedbygrace

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And the word (thing) became flesh (person)

For the word of God is alive (living) and powerful (and active). Things are not said to be alive. Things can be powerful and actively move, like a bulldozer for instance, but things are not living and alive.
 
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stunnedbygrace

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Your mixing of English and Hebrew on the other hand, is a bit confusing, especially when the original manuscript was written in Greek! Why are you quoting from the Orthodox Jewish Bible?

This I agree with! I don’t understand why he does it either.
 

stunnedbygrace

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Yes.

John 10:29 (WEB):
(29) My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all. ...​
John 14:28 (WEB):
(28) You heard how I told you, ‘I go away, and I come to you.’ If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I said ‘I am going to my Father;’ for the Father is greater than I.​

I rather agree with this. The verse says He became nothing/emptied Himself and took on human form. It would necessarily mean He would say the Father was greater than He. He voluntarily, out of love for us, became nothing/emptied Himself/left the glory He shared with God from before the world was created.
At that point, He had to rely completely on the Father for everything.

Yet someone who would do that, give all that up to become nothing just to save us, is truly not lesser.
 
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Lambano

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Lol. You have no idea how much your post strengthened me and took away my weariness. I was crying tears of praise and I yelled, look at him go, Lord, the one whose hands you trained for war! Look at him go! And the hair on my arms raised up and the Holy Spirit jumped up in me.
If I can encourage a sister in Christ, then it's all worthwhile. :)
 

marks

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First, the idea that there can be only one transcendent creator is not up for debate. The idea is called "a first principle", a fundamental concept that is true by definition. The Bible clearly teaches this idea in passages such as the following. "To you it was shown that you might know that the Lord, He is God; there is no other besides Him." Deuteronomy 4:35

All who argue against the Triune Godhead use the same argument. Three cannot be one. It's a cognitive bias, and causes you to read the Bible in a way that must conform to your bias, "Three cannot be One."

Much love!
 

marks

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Indeed, I am well-aware of some of my issues with Pride and Vanity, though the depth of my sin is probably far worse than I realize. C.S. Lewis notes that Vanity, the need for the approval of men, is one of the least cancerous forms of Pride because it is motivated by internal feelings of inferiority rather than superiority.

I invite all those participating in this thread to examine themselves.

(And yes, that's an indirect accusation, and yes, I'm doing it intentionally to be irritating. But the invitation to self-examination is real.)
Every one of us can benefit from that kind of self-examination if done honestly before the LORD.

Much love!
 

marks

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Jesus isn't asking God to restore him to his pre-human condition;

John 17:5 KJV
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

This is simple. And we should not drain the meaning from it.

Much love!
 
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