This really grabbed me today!

[stunnedbygrace]

John 17:5 KJV
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

This is simple. And we should not drain the meaning from it.

Much love![/]

Isn’t it enough for you to drink clear water for yourselves? Must you also muddy the rest with your feet?

Oops, my reply fell into the quote box. Sorry.

 

[marks]

Oops, my reply fell into the quote box. Sorry.

Isn’t it enough for you to drink clear water for yourselves? Must you also muddy the rest with your feet?

??

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Stunnedbygrace, I don't know you as a heretic hunter. This is new to me. I hope you will eventually come to understand that Trinitarianism is the false doctrine I oppose, not the Biblical doctrine on which we both can agree. I hope you can see that when we bring a particular narrative TO a text, we are going to see that narrative supported there. We find it there because we brought it with us. But this is not the way to learn our faith. We are seeking to know what Jesus and his apostles taught; we want them to give us the proper perspective and understanding.

If we bring Trinity doctrine to a narrow subset of a larger passage, we can find a way to interpret John's words to support Trinity doctrine. According to Trinity doctrine, what is the glory that Jesus had before the world began? Who knows? Whatever Jesus was like as the Second Person of the Trinity before he condescended to become a human being, he will return to that state.

But according to the rest of the upper-room discourse, what is the glory the Father is about to give to his son Jesus? Speaking of his crucifixion Jesus says, "“Now is the Son of Man glorified, and God is glorified in Him; if God is glorified in Him, God will also glorify Him in Himself, and will glorify Him immediately." In other words, both the father and the son will be glorified in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. When Jesus rises to sit at the right hand of the Father, then Jesus will be glorified. In this context, Jesus is speaking of an exalted status that the Father will grant to the human being Jesus. And, this is very important, Jesus prays that the Father will grant this same exalted status to his apostles, who are also human beings.

"The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one; I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me. Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world." John 17:22-24

Unless we are willing to think that Jesus is asking the Father to elevate the Apostles to "Godhead" status, making them the fourth, fifth, sixth etc. member of the Godhead, then we must admit that glorification, in this context, refers to the nature, quality, and status of being morally perfect, leaders of Jesus' new kingdom. Jesus isn't asking God to restore him to his pre-human condition; he is asking the father to make him glorious by bestowing honor, and praise on him through the resurrection and ascension.

Okay well, once again, I’m not a trinitarian. Or a heretic hunter. I simply know that Jesus was God.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Isn’t it enough for you to drink clear water for yourselves? Must you also muddy the rest with your feet?

??

You said it was simple. And it is. But men drink for themselves and then proceed to muddy the good water they drank for themselves with their feet making it difficult for others to drink.

 

[bbyrd009]

All right; I'll bite. Sure he did. To whom was John referring in verse 14?

And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us; and we saw His glory, glory as of the only from the Father, full of grace and truth.

a problem there might be that if you just substitute what seems obvious to you, you will lose the intent of the original maybe, in that case being possibly that what is meant as a concept is now labeled, and thus imagined to be understood. Iow see now it is “to whom” when before it was a…less definable entity, lets say. Sort of the same mechanism by which YHWH (AEOU) became “Jehovah” i think

 

[Johann]

Let's take a closer look at Hebrews 1:9,

Yeah let's...


Heb 1:9 AHAVTA TZEDEK VATISNA RE'SHA, AL KEN MESHAKHACHA ELOHIM, ELOHECHA SHEMEN SASSON MECHAVERECHA ("You loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; on account of this G-d, your G-d, anointed you with the oil of gladness more than your companions"--TEHILLIM 45:8).
Heb 1:10 And "Atah Adonoi LEFANIM HA'ARETZ YASADETA UMA'ASEH YADECHA SHOMAYIM; HEMMAH YOVEDU V'ATAH TA'AMOD V'KHULAM KABEGED YIVLU KALVUSH TACHALIFEM V'YACHALOFU V'ATAH HU USHENOTECHA LO YITTAMMU" ("You L-rd in the beginning founded the earth and the heavens, the work of your hands;...
OJB

9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore - - God, Your - God,

N-NMS (BSB Morphology)
Noun - Nominative Masculine Singular
Lemma: θεός
Word: God,
Greek: Θεός
Transliteration: Theos
G2316 (Mickelson's Enhanced Strong's Dictionaries of the Greek and Hebrew Testaments)
G2316 θεός theos (the-os') n.


N-NMS (BSB Morphology)
Noun - Nominative Masculine Singular
Lemma: θεός
Word: God,
Greek: Θεός,
Transliteration: Theos,
G2316 (Mickelson's Enhanced Strong's Dictionaries of the Greek and Hebrew Testaments)
G2316 θεός theos (the-os') n.


PPro-G2S (BSB Morphology)
Personal / Possessive Pronoun - Genitive 2nd Person Singular
Lemma: σύ
Word: Your
Greek: σου,
Transliteration: sou,
G4771 (Mickelson's Enhanced Strong's Dictionaries of the Greek and Hebrew Testaments)
G4771 σύ su (sï ')
thou.

has anointed You above Your - companions with the oil of joy.”7 10 And: “In the beginning, O Lord, You laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands. 11 They will perish, but You remain; - - they will all wear out like a garment.


Thy throne.
Ps 45:6; Ps 45:7
O God.
Heb 3:3; Heb 3:4; Isa 7:14; Isa 9:6; Isa 9:7; Isa 45:21; Isa 45:22; Isa 45:25; Jer 23:6; Hos 1:7; Zech 13:9
Mal 3:1; Matt 1:23; Luke 1:16; Luke 1:17; John 10:30; John 10:33; John 20:28; Rom 9:5; 1Tim 3:16
Titus 2:13; Titus 2:14; 1John 5:20
for.
Ps 145:13; Isa 9:7; Deut 2:37; Deut 7:14; 1Cor 15:25; 2Pet 1:11
a sceptre.
2Sam 23:3; Ps 72:1-4; Ps 72:7; Ps 72:11-14; Ps 99:4; Isa 9:7; Isa 32:1; Isa 32:2; Jer 23:5; Jer 38:15
Zec 9:9
righteousness. Gr. rightness. or, straightness.

Simple, isn't it, now it is a matter of believing...

 

[Johann]

Yeah let's...


Heb 1:9 AHAVTA TZEDEK VATISNA RE'SHA, AL KEN MESHAKHACHA ELOHIM, ELOHECHA SHEMEN SASSON MECHAVERECHA ("You loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; on account of this G-d, your G-d, anointed you with the oil of gladness more than your companions"--TEHILLIM 45:8).
Heb 1:10 And "Atah Adonoi LEFANIM HA'ARETZ YASADETA UMA'ASEH YADECHA SHOMAYIM; HEMMAH YOVEDU V'ATAH TA'AMOD V'KHULAM KABEGED YIVLU KALVUSH TACHALIFEM V'YACHALOFU V'ATAH HU USHENOTECHA LO YITTAMMU" ("You L-rd in the beginning founded the earth and the heavens, the work of your hands;...
OJB

9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore - - God, Your - God,

N-NMS (BSB Morphology)
Noun - Nominative Masculine Singular
Lemma: θεός
Word: God,
Greek: Θεός
Transliteration: Theos
G2316 (Mickelson's Enhanced Strong's Dictionaries of the Greek and Hebrew Testaments)
G2316 θεός theos (the-os') n.


N-NMS (BSB Morphology)
Noun - Nominative Masculine Singular
Lemma: θεός
Word: God,
Greek: Θεός,
Transliteration: Theos,
G2316 (Mickelson's Enhanced Strong's Dictionaries of the Greek and Hebrew Testaments)
G2316 θεός theos (the-os') n.


PPro-G2S (BSB Morphology)
Personal / Possessive Pronoun - Genitive 2nd Person Singular
Lemma: σύ
Word: Your
Greek: σου,
Transliteration: sou,
G4771 (Mickelson's Enhanced Strong's Dictionaries of the Greek and Hebrew Testaments)
G4771 σύ su (sï ')
thou.

has anointed You above Your - companions with the oil of joy.”7 10 And: “In the beginning, O Lord, You laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands. 11 They will perish, but You remain; - - they will all wear out like a garment.


Thy throne.
Ps 45:6; Ps 45:7
O God.
Heb 3:3; Heb 3:4; Isa 7:14; Isa 9:6; Isa 9:7; Isa 45:21; Isa 45:22; Isa 45:25; Jer 23:6; Hos 1:7; Zech 13:9
Mal 3:1; Matt 1:23; Luke 1:16; Luke 1:17; John 10:30; John 10:33; John 20:28; Rom 9:5; 1Tim 3:16
Titus 2:13; Titus 2:14; 1John 5:20
for.
Ps 145:13; Isa 9:7; Deut 2:37; Deut 7:14; 1Cor 15:25; 2Pet 1:11
a sceptre.
2Sam 23:3; Ps 72:1-4; Ps 72:7; Ps 72:11-14; Ps 99:4; Isa 9:7; Isa 32:1; Isa 32:2; Jer 23:5; Jer 38:15
Zec 9:9
righteousness. Gr. rightness. or, straightness.

Simple, isn't it, now it is a matter of believing...

. 6 Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever, and justice is the scepter of Your kingdom. 7 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore - God, your God, has anointed you above your companions with the oil of joy.3


Psa 45:6 (7) Thy kisse (throne), O Elohim, is olam va'ed; the shevet (sceptre) of Thy Malchut is a shevet of uprightness.
Psa 45:7 (8) Thou lovest tzedek, and hatest resha; therefore Elohim, Eloheicha, hath anointed Thee with shemen sasson (the oil of gladness) above Thy chaverim.
OJB

J.

 

[marks]

You said it was simple. And it is. But men drink for themselves and then proceed to muddy the good water they drank for themselves with their feet making it difficult for others to drink.

So don't do that . . .

And don't muddy the Scriptures . . .

It does seem to be a common problem, people sometimes are more intent on broadcasting their attitude than other things.

Much love!

 

[GISMYS_7]

It is sad and pathetic to see people that say they know God but do not know that Jesus IS God.
Three but one!!! Almighty God IS Father Son and Holy Spirit just as man is body, soul and spirit = three but one!!

 

[Johann]

It is sad and pathetic to see people that say they know God but do not know that Jesus IS God.
Three but one!!! Almighty God IS Father Son and Holy Spirit just as man is body, soul and spirit = three but one!!

You said it well
J.

 

[marks]

It is sad and pathetic to see people that say they know God but do not know that Jesus IS God.
Three but one!!! Almighty God IS Father Son and Holy Spirit just as man is body, soul and spirit = three but one!!

In so many "anti-trinitarian" threads and posts . . . I'm realizing in a fresh way how this divides those who claim they believe in God into those who believe in our Triune God, and those who do not. And those who do not have irreconcilable issues with the text of Scripture, whether they will recognize it or not, or admit it or not.

Claiming to know Jesus, but denying Who He is. Claiming to be alive in the Spirit, but denying Who He is.

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

So don't do that . . .

Well yeah, don’t do that!
Except it’s what men do when they take: with the glory I had with You before the world was, and get it all muddied and muddled.

I was just giving a verse that was relevant to the discussion. I wasn’t in any way disagreeing with you.

 

[marks]

Well yeah, don’t do that!
Except it’s what men do when they take: with the glory I had with You before the world was, and get it all muddied and muddled.

I was just giving a verse that was relevant to the discussion. I wasn’t in any way disagreeing with you.

I didn't really know what you were saying . . . thank you!

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

In so many "anti-trinitarian" threads and posts . . . I'm realizing in a fresh way how this divides those who claim they believe in God into those who believe in our Triune God, and those who do not. And those who do not have irreconcilable issues with the text of Scripture, whether they will recognize it or not, or admit it or not.

Claiming to know Jesus, but denying Who He is. Claiming to be alive in the Spirit, but denying Who He is.

Much love!

There’s not always that division. Or at least there doesn’t have to be. I cannot really see God, who is Spirit, as a different Spirit than the Holy Spirit. I see the Holy Spirit as God. And I see Jesus as God. But to insist I must see the Holy Spirit and God, (who IS Spirit), as two different Spirits is not necessary.

Although I did recently somewhat see that I could kind of grasp God the Father (who is Spirit, the Holy Spirit) as all I do NOT know of God and His immensity…and Jesus and the down payment of Gods Spirit as what I DO know of God…

 

[marks]

There’s not always that division. Or at least there doesn’t have to be. I cannot really see God, who is Spirit, as a different Spirit than the Holy Spirit. I see the Holy Spirit as God. And I see Jesus as God. But to insist I must see the Holy Spirit and God, who IS Spirit, as two different Spirits is not necessary.

To me this reflects on how we read and understand the Bible.

I don't know so much that God intends for us ot have a factual and specific concept of how everything and everyone is. But I do think that God wrote the Bible in such a way as to form our minds in a certain way according to how it is written.

The division I speak of is specific and real, though I think you won't agree with where I put the line. But there are numerous passages that become faulty if the Holy Spirit is not His Own Person within the Godhead. Scripture teaches the Holy Spirit is volitional, having intent. Scripture portrays the Holy Spirit to be active, doing things. Speaking and directing. Many things.

Your view is that the Father and the Son share the same spirit, but not that this spirit is a different "person", considering, God is Spirit, and "two spirits" is redundant.

But does this mean that the Father is Spirit, and the Son is Incarnated Man, and the Spirit - The Father - is shared by both Father and Son? When we see the Father as the Spirit Himself, then to me it seems the words of the Bible get tangled up with each other.

That the Father and the Son share the same Spirit, yes, I can agree with that. Does that which issues forth from God have less life and Godhood-ness than God? Is there a part of God that we would call a blind and insensate force?

Or, just as the Son is likewise God Himself, the Spirit is also God Himself?

I don't "insist" that you see any particular thing, but I recongnize the difference, that those who are trinitarian read the Bible one way, while those who are not read it differently.

The matter of, How we read the Bible . . .

Acts 13:2 KJV
As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.

Did the Holy Spirit give this instruction? Or no? Was the Holy Spirit the "telephone"? Or the Speaker?

The Holy Spirit said, do this, so I'm of the mind that the Holy Spirit was the speaker. Otherwise, it's along the lines of, "the telephone said do such and such". I don't think that's a good understanding of the passage.

Much love!

 

[marks]

You said it was simple. And it is. But men drink for themselves and then proceed to muddy the good water they drank for themselves with their feet making it difficult for others to drink.

And there are those who refuse to drink, and don't allow others . . .

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

To me this reflects on how we read and understand the Bible.

I don't know so much that God intends for us ot have a factual and specific concept of how everything and everyone is. But I do think that God wrote the Bible in such a way as to form our minds in a certain way according to how it is written.

The division I speak of is specific and real, though I think you won't agree with where I put the line. But there are numerous passages that become faulty if the Holy Spirit is not His Own Person within the Godhead. Scripture teaches the Holy Spirit is volitional, having intent. Scripture portrays the Holy Spirit to be active, doing things. Speaking and directing. Many things.

Your view is that the Father and the Son share the same spirit, but not that this spirit is a different "person", considering, God is Spirit, and "two spirits" is redundant.

But does this mean that the Father is Spirit, and the Son is Incarnated Man, and the Spirit - The Father - is shared by both Father and Son? When we see the Father as the Spirit Himself, then to me it seems the words of the Bible get tangled up with each other.

That the Father and the Son share the same Spirit, yes, I can agree with that. Does that which issues forth from God have less life and Godhood-ness than God? Is there a part of God that we would call a blind and insensate force?

Or, just as the Son is likewise God Himself, the Spirit is also God Himself?

I don't "insist" that you see any particular thing, but I recongnize the difference, that those who are trinitarian read the Bible one way, while those who are not read it differently.

The matter of, How we read the Bible . . .

Acts 13:2 KJV
As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.

Did the Holy Spirit give this instruction? Or no? Was the Holy Spirit the "telephone"? Or the Speaker?

The Holy Spirit said, do this, so I'm of the mind that the Holy Spirit was the speaker. Otherwise, it's along the lines of, "the telephone said do such and such". I don't think that's a good understanding of the passage.

Much love!

aww, now see, I’m going to need a cup of coffee for this one. Be right back.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

And there are those who refuse to drink, and don't allow others . . .

Much love!

Yes. That would be this: You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.
That’s even WORSE than muddying the water with your feet.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

But there are numerous passages that become faulty if the Holy Spirit is not His Own Person within the Godhead.

Which ones?

 

[marks]

Which ones?

Here's one . . .

[QUOTE="marks, post: 1352809, member: 7985"
The matter of, How we read the Bible . . .

Acts 13:2 KJV
As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.

Did the Holy Spirit give this instruction? Or no? Was the Holy Spirit the "telephone"? Or the Speaker?

The Holy Spirit said, do this, so I'm of the mind that the Holy Spirit was the speaker. Otherwise, it's along the lines of, "the telephone said do such and such". I don't think that's a good understanding of the passage./QUOTE]

Much love!