This world and the wicked are going up in a puff of smoke when Jesus come - thus negating Premil

[Patrick1966]

This Christian shares scripture in this 11-minute video to support a literal, 1,000 year, reign of Christ on Earth.

 

[WPM]

Good question.

My understanding is that Jesus comes and puts an end to the antiChrist and throws Satan into a pit for 1,000 years. Are all of the egregiously evil people killed or do they remain? I don't know. Please enlighten me.

Ok. There is no second coming passage that teaches that. The only argument comes from a naive reading of Revelation, which involves denying the repeated recaps, ignoring the clear climactic detail in Revelation that shows all the wicked (all flesh left behind) are destroyed at the coming of Christ, and ignoring all the repeated teaching re the second coming elsewhere in Scripture, that shows Jesus return is the end.

 

[WPM]

This Christian shares scripture in this 11-minute video to support a literal, 1,000 year, reign of Christ on Earth.

I am sorry. I do not as a habit engage with outside Premils links, as I cannot engage with the many holes in their argument. Anyway, I am a former Premil, like most Amils on this board. I know the weak unconvincing uncorroborated arguments they present.

 

[Patrick1966]

FWIW, I don't have a horse in this race. I'm not married to a position on this matter. I try to go to where the scripture leads and from what I've seen I'm inclined to believe that there is a literal 1,000 year reign but I am certainly willing to be persuaded that my understanding is mistaken.

 

[WPM]

FWIW, I don't have a horse in this race. I'm not married to a position on this matter. I try to go to where the scripture leads and from what I've seen I'm inclined to believe that there is a literal 1,000 year reign but I am certainly willing to be persuaded that my understanding is mistaken.

I understand. But, where does the OT prophets, Christ or the NT writers teach a 3-age format (“this age, the age to come and another age to come after the age to come”)?

Christ and the New Testament writers only recognize two overriding ages in their teaching – “this world/age” and “the world/age to come.” One is current, corrupt and temporal and the other is impending, perfect and eternal. One refers to mortal life on earth in the here-and-now, and the other refers to our eternal state. These terms are commonly used in the New Testament when contrasting the toil and trouble of our day with the glory and rest of the hereafter. These two common phrases are found in different places in the New Testament, along with several other similar expressions, referring to time and eternity. Basically, there is now and there is then – there is no in-between. The pivotal event that divides these two diverse ages is the glorious climactic return of Jesus Christ.

The day of salvation has been ongoing since the Fall (Isaiah 49:8 and 2 Corinthians 6:2). It is the “acceptable time” or “acceptable year” (Isaiah 49:8, 61:2, Luke 4:19) to be saved. “Today” is an age of grace the only day to respond to His voice (Hebrews 3:7-8, 4:7). There is no other day of hope after this day for salvation.

The second coming brings a close to the day of salvation. Repeated Scripture shows that now is the only day of salvation. After showing us the destruction of this earth, the works that are in it, the heavens, the elements when Jesus comes, and after describing the longsuffering of God in the days of Noah before the destruction of all the wicked, Peter responds to the mockers scoffing at the apparent delay in Christ's return: “the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation” (2 Peter 3:15). See also Romans 2:4 and 2 Timothy 2:10. This shows that salvation is limited to this side of the second coming. A sign of the end is that the Gospel must “be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come" (Matthew 24:14). The second coming brings the curtain down on the great commission. Once the ark door closes it is too late (Matthew 25:10-13, 28:19-20 and Act 3:19-21). At the end of this age (or literally, the consummation of the age), the time of God’s grace will finally be complete.

The age to come has no room for "mortals" (Luke 20:34-36, Romans 8:19-23, 1 Corinthians 15:50-55 and Revelation 21-22) or the unregenerate (Psalm 25:12-13, 37:9-11, 22, 28-36, 34, Proverbs 2:21-22, 10:30, Luke 17:26-30, 1 Corinthians 6:9, 1 Corinthians 15:24, I Thessalonians 5:2-3, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10). One must be qualified to inherit the new earth. They must be worthy to enter that age (Luke 20:35). Only glorified saints can inherit the glorified earth. This would be a strong argument to me that the second coming is “the end.”

Matthew 13:29, 49, 28:20, John 6:39-44, 54, John 11:21-27, John 12:48, Ephesians 1:10 and Revelation 10:5-7 would seem to suggest that time reaches its fullness at the climactic return of Christ. This would be a strong argument to me that the second coming is “the end.”

Luke 20:34-36, Acts 3:19-21, Romans 8:19-23, 1 Corinthians 15:50-55 ,1 Peter 1:3-5 and Revelation 21:1-5 all show that the end of the bondage of corruption occurs when Jesus comes. A far more glorious age will then be ushered in. This would be a strong argument to me that the second coming is “the end.”

1 Corinthians 13:12, Ephesians 4:13 and Revelation 10:5-7 show that the curtain coming down on the mystery of God, thus confirming we are at the end of time and entering into eternity when all will finally be revealed. This would be a strong argument to me that the second coming is “the end.”

Repeated Scripture locates the replacement of the current heavens and earth with the new heavens and earth and incorruption at the second coming. Job 14:12-14, Isaiah 13:9-11, Isaiah 34:1-4, 8, Isaiah 65:17-21, Isaiah 66:22-24, Joel 2:3, Joel 2:10-11, Malachi 4:1-3, Matthew 24:29-30, Matthew 24:35-44, Mark 13:24-26, Luke 21:25-27, Romans 8:18-23, 1 Corinthians 15:23-24, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-13, Hebrews 1:10-12, Revelation 6:13-17, Revelation 16:15-20, Revelation 19:11-16 and Revelation 20:11-15 shows us that this occurs at the second coming. This is indeed the end of time, the end of corruption, the end of the wicked, the end of sin, the end of death, the end for the devil. It is the beginning of eternity. It is the beginning of perfection. It is the beginning of incorruption. It is the beginning of a new arrangement.

It seems like whatever angle you examine the second coming it appears to be climactic, final and glorious.

 

[Patrick1966]

I understand. But, where does the OT prophets, Christ or the NT writers teach a 3-age format (“this age, the age to come and another age to come after the age to come”)?

Christ and the New Testament writers only recognize two overriding ages in their teaching – “this world/age” and “the world/age to come.” One is current, corrupt and temporal and the other is impending, perfect and eternal. One refers to mortal life on earth in the here-and-now, and the other refers to our eternal state. These terms are commonly used in the New Testament when contrasting the toil and trouble of our day with the glory and rest of the hereafter. These two common phrases are found in different places in the New Testament, along with several other similar expressions, referring to time and eternity. Basically, there is now and there is then – there is no in-between. The pivotal event that divides these two diverse ages is the glorious climactic return of Jesus Christ.

The day of salvation has been ongoing since the Fall (Isaiah 49:8 and 2 Corinthians 6:2). It is the “acceptable time” or “acceptable year” (Isaiah 49:8, 61:2, Luke 4:19) to be saved. “Today” is an age of grace the only day to respond to His voice (Hebrews 3:7-8, 4:7). There is no other day of hope after this day for salvation.

The second coming brings a close to the day of salvation. Repeated Scripture shows that now is the only day of salvation. After showing us the destruction of this earth, the works that are in it, the heavens, the elements when Jesus comes, and after describing the longsuffering of God in the days of Noah before the destruction of all the wicked, Peter responds to the mockers scoffing at the apparent delay in Christ's return: “the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation” (2 Peter 3:15). See also Romans 2:4 and 2 Timothy 2:10. This shows that salvation is limited to this side of the second coming. A sign of the end is that the Gospel must “be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come" (Matthew 24:14). The second coming brings the curtain down on the great commission. Once the ark door closes it is too late (Matthew 25:10-13, 28:19-20 and Act 3:19-21). At the end of this age (or literally, the consummation of the age), the time of God’s grace will finally be complete.

The age to come has no room for "mortals" (Luke 20:34-36, Romans 8:19-23, 1 Corinthians 15:50-55 and Revelation 21-22) or the unregenerate (Psalm 25:12-13, 37:9-11, 22, 28-36, 34, Proverbs 2:21-22, 10:30, Luke 17:26-30, 1 Corinthians 6:9, 1 Corinthians 15:24, I Thessalonians 5:2-3, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10). One must be qualified to inherit the new earth. They must be worthy to enter that age (Luke 20:35). Only glorified saints can inherit the glorified earth. This would be a strong argument to me that the second coming is “the end.”

Matthew 13:29, 49, 28:20, John 6:39-44, 54, John 11:21-27, John 12:48, Ephesians 1:10 and Revelation 10:5-7 would seem to suggest that time reaches its fullness at the climactic return of Christ. This would be a strong argument to me that the second coming is “the end.”

Luke 20:34-36, Acts 3:19-21, Romans 8:19-23, 1 Corinthians 15:50-55 ,1 Peter 1:3-5 and Revelation 21:1-5 all show that the end of the bondage of corruption occurs when Jesus comes. A far more glorious age will then be ushered in. This would be a strong argument to me that the second coming is “the end.”

1 Corinthians 13:12, Ephesians 4:13 and Revelation 10:5-7 show that the curtain coming down on the mystery of God, thus confirming we are at the end of time and entering into eternity when all will finally be revealed. This would be a strong argument to me that the second coming is “the end.”

Repeated Scripture locates the replacement of the current heavens and earth with the new heavens and earth and incorruption at the second coming. Job 14:12-14, Isaiah 13:9-11, Isaiah 34:1-4, 8, Isaiah 65:17-21, Isaiah 66:22-24, Joel 2:3, Joel 2:10-11, Malachi 4:1-3, Matthew 24:29-30, Matthew 24:35-44, Mark 13:24-26, Luke 21:25-27, Romans 8:18-23, 1 Corinthians 15:23-24, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-13, Hebrews 1:10-12, Revelation 6:13-17, Revelation 16:15-20, Revelation 19:11-16 and Revelation 20:11-15 shows us that this occurs at the second coming. This is indeed the end of time, the end of corruption, the end of the wicked, the end of sin, the end of death, the end for the devil. It is the beginning of eternity. It is the beginning of perfection. It is the beginning of incorruption. It is the beginning of a new arrangement.

It seems like whatever angle you examine the second coming it appears to be climactic, final and glorious.

Well that's a lot to chew on!

 

[WPM]

Well that's a lot to chew on!

I know. It took me a while to arrive at this, but this has been the classic Protestant position since the Reformation. 2 Peter 3 started me questioning Premil. I could not explain away the climactic detail.

 

[Patrick1966]

I know. It took me a while to arrive at this, but this has been the classic Protestant position since the Reformation. 2 Peter 3 started me question Premil. I could not explain it away.

Some of this stuff is difficult to grasp. It's fascinating and fun to talk about it. Where we go wrong is when a friendly discussion between brothers turns into an egotistical argument. We are told to avoid petty arguments. We're also told that the most humble in Heaven is the greatest in Heaven.

I believe all we really need is to believe in Jesus, his resurrection, to love God and to love one another. If that's ALL a person knows and does, they're as good a Christian (if not better) than a Christian theologian.

 

[jeffweeder]

Some of this stuff is difficult to grasp. It's fascinating and fun to talk about it. Where we go wrong is when a friendly discussion between brothers turns into an egotistical argument. We are told to avoid petty arguments. We're also told that the most humble in Heaven is the greatest in Heaven.

I believe all we really need is to believe in Jesus, his resurrection, to love God and to love one another. If that's ALL a person knows and does, they're as good a Christian (if not better) than a Christian theologian.

I like your post a lot. I see no ego with the Amills here as we push the NT scriptures than define and clarify this subject.
Ill be seeing and celebrating with you on the last day I am sure.

 

[WPM]

Some of this stuff is difficult to grasp. It's fascinating and fun to talk about it. Where we go wrong is when a friendly discussion between brothers turns into an egotistical argument. We are told to avoid petty arguments. We're also told that the most humble in Heaven is the greatest in Heaven.

I believe all we really need is to believe in Jesus, his resurrection, to love God and to love one another. If that's ALL a person knows and does, they're as good a Christian (if not better) than a Christian theologian.

I agree. But we are encouraged to grow in the grace and knowledge of Christ - i believe that talks about our personal sanctification and our biblical knowledge. We are exhorted to move from milk to meat.

 

[Patrick1966]

I agree. But we are encouraged to grow in the grace and knowledge of Christ - i believe that talks about our personal sanctification and our biblical knowledge. We are exhorted to move from milk to meat.

And I agree with you back! I'm simply saying that many of these discussions devolve into mean-spirited arguments, which we must not do.

 

[WPM]

And I agree with you back! I'm simply saying that many of these discussions devolve into mean-spirited arguments, which we must not do.

True. We are all guilt of it. It can be frustrating when the other person is not willing to listen, see or accept. It can be annoying when someone is trashing your beloved truth.

 

[Keraz]

True. We are all guilt of it. It can be frustrating when the other person is not willing to listen, see or accept. It can be annoying when someone is trashing your beloved truth.

I just wonder how annoyed Jesus will be with those who reject the plainly stated Prophesies in Revelation 20? and Hosea 6:2

The Bible is a Book that starts with the Creation and ends with the eternal state. It started as perfect, then Satan messed it up. so the Bible is all about how God will correct this, in a series of stages. We are currently in the stage of having the choice of accepting the Redeemer that God sent, or following our own way, which is covertly or overtly; the way of Satan.
Soon Jesus will Return and as clearly Prophesied, He will reign on earth for the next thousand years, displaying the right way to rule mortal mankind.
THEN comes the New heavens and earth, the Spiritual state for Eternity.

 

[WPM]

I just wonder how annoyed Jesus will be with those who reject the plainly stated Prophesies in Revelation 20? and Hosea 6:2

The Bible is a Book that starts with the Creation and ends with the eternal state. It started as perfect, then Satan messed it up. so the Bible is all about how God will correct this, in a series of stages. We are currently in the stage of having the choice of accepting the Redeemer that God sent, or following our own way, which is covertly or overtly; the way of Satan.
Soon Jesus will Return and as clearly Prophesied, He will reign on earth for the next thousand years, displaying the right way to rule mortal mankind.
THEN comes the New heavens and earth, the Spiritual state for Eternity.

Hosea 6:1-3: “Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up. After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight. Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth.”

There is no reason to interpret these 3 days as anything other than 3 literal days. This again shows that it is Premils that are constantly spiritualizing clear literal Scripture away in order to sustain Premil. Anyway, Jesus literally fulfilled Hosea 6:2. It has already happened. Jesus said he would fulfil this, and He did. Matt 12:40 reads: "For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."

There is no millennium mention or inferred in this passage. You have to force it into the text. It doesn't in any way say on the 3,000th day but the 3rd day, this is symbolism/spiritualization gone crazy. Such extremities are required to make Premil fit. The reality is it is referring to Christ's glorious resurrection.

Not so. He is describing the resurrection of Christ. There is no mention of thousands. You force that into the text to support your beliefs. What is more. We are already in the 3rd thousand now, demolishing your future millennium theory.

Jesus said in Luke 24:46-49: “Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And ye are witnesses of these things. And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.”

1 Cor 15:3-4: "For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures."

Where? It is not mentioned anywhere else in Holy Writ, apart from the highly symbolic book of Revelation, and even then, only in the 3rd chapter before the end of the sacred text. I wish Premils quoted the full text of the Scripture that they mention to support their position. The text you mentioned make no mention of a future thousand years. No text seems safe with Premil eisegesis. Where is there any mention of an alleged future millennium in Hosea 6:2 or Luke 13:32?

Hosea 6:1-3 affirms: “Come, and let us (true Israel) return unto the LORD (Jesus): for he (Jesus) hath torn, and he (Jesus) will heal us (true Israel); he (Jesus) hath smitten, and he (Jesus) will bind us (true Israel) up. After two days will he (Jesus) revive us (true Israel): in the third day he (Jesus) will raise us (true Israel) up, and we (true Israel) shall live in his (Jesus) sight. Then shall we (true Israel) know, if we (true Israel) follow on to know the LORD (Jesus): his (Jesus) going forth is prepared as the morning; and he (Jesus) shall come unto us (true Israel) as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth.”

This is talking about 2,000 years ago, and Christ's defeat of the grave, not some alleged future sin-cursed, goat-infested, death-blighted earthly millennial kingdom.

Luke 13: 32 records: "And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected."

This is talking about 2,000 years ago, and Christ's defeat of the grave, not some alleged future sin-cursed, goat-infested, death-blighted earthly millennial kingdom.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

II Thessalonians 1:7-10 says, “the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) IN THAT DAY.”

How could the wicked survive this? It is impossible!

Amils take this literal! This is complete, wholesale, and total destruction - for those left behind. There are no survivors! There are no goats left to enter into the supposed Premil future millennium!!!

How does anyone left behind survive this? What unsaved person is exempt from this description “them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ”?

None. Only someone who is biased would try to say otherwise. Paul does not leave room for any exceptions there.

Christ appears at His Second Advent “in flaming fire” with the purpose of taking “vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.” There is hence absolutely no provision made for unbelievers surviving this all-consummating event. The destruction of the total wicked comes from the actual appearance of Christ at the time of the Second coming. Expressly, it is “the presence of the Lord” and “the glory of his power” that causes the destruction of the wicked at the end. It is clearly not a thousand years after the Lord’s appearing as the Premillennialist would try and argue. Neither is there any exceptions, no allowance is made for natural Israel or for the so-called ‘sheep nations’, as Premillennialists try to do.

You made 3 posts at the beginning of this thread to back up your claim with scripture and you didn't even include 2 Peter 3:10-13. That's not a criticism. It just shows that there are clearly a number of other scriptures besides 2 Peter 3:10-13 which all teach the same thing - that Jesus Christ will destroy all of the wicked and even the earth itself on the day He returns.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I just wonder how annoyed Jesus will be with those who reject the plainly stated Prophesies in Revelation 20? and Hosea 6:2

Probably not too much since I'm sure He understands that people like you who reject the true meaning of those prophecies are not doing so on purpose.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

As you quoted, Mark’s says the stars will fall. This fits with Isaiah who speaks of the heavens “rolling up like a scroll.” Revelation 6 has a similar description. These descriptions are why I simply cannot except a millennial age following the second coming of Christ. It seems to me that not only earth but also earths solar system will be destroyed at his coming.

Agree. When Peter talks about the heavens and the elements being burned up when Christ returns, I believe that is what he is talking about.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. 11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You no doubt want to see God's grace end, so you can watch the slaughter of all flesh on earth.

Pathetic slander like this is all you have to offer. No one can take you seriously when you say things like this.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So Jesus doesn't rule on Earth for 1,000 years?

I confess to being totally ignorant on this topic.

If you really want to know the truth about this, then I would suggest doing a study on what scripture teaches about Christ reigning and His followers reigning with Him as priests (see 1 Peter 2:9 and Rev 1:5-6, for example). And do a study on the timing of the resurrection of the dead (see John 5:28-29, for example). And what it teaches about how many judgment days there will be (see Acts 17:30-31, Matthew 25:31-46 and other scriptures). And what it teaches about what will happen to all believers and what will happen to all unbelievers on the day Christ returns (2 Thess 1:7-10, 1 Thess 4:14-5:2-3, Matt 24:35-39, 2 Peter 3:10-13, etc.). And then after doing that, see if it makes any sense for mortal life to continue on after He returns.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Some of this stuff is difficult to grasp. It's fascinating and fun to talk about it. Where we go wrong is when a friendly discussion between brothers turns into an egotistical argument. We are told to avoid petty arguments. We're also told that the most humble in Heaven is the greatest in Heaven.

That is true. We Amils on this forum try to keep the discussion focused primarily on scripture rather than just opinions. But, we deal with a lot of personal insults and lies about what we believe and that can be frustrating.

I believe all we really need is to believe in Jesus, his resurrection, to love God and to love one another. If that's ALL a person knows and does, they're as good a Christian (if not better) than a Christian theologian.

I basically agree with you, but at the same time there is a lot of prophecy in scripture. It wouldn't be there if we weren't meant to understand it.