Three Days and Three Nights
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John_8:32,
re: "...it was the death penalty..".
Exactly what death penalty did the Messiah take upon Himself that would otherwise have to be taken by us?
re: "...it was the death penalty..".
Exactly what death penalty did the Messiah take upon Himself that would otherwise have to be taken by us?
Webers_Home
Well-Known Member
.
rstrats, on 05 Feb 2013 - 05:03, said : Exactly what death penalty did
the Messiah take upon Himself that would otherwise have to be taken by us?
According to Rom 5:12-14, everybody's first death is ear-marked for Adam's
transgression; so it can't use it to satisfy justice for any of our own sins.
The second death depicted at Rev 20:10-15 is where people will die for
their own sins. However, there's a rub.
According to Rom 6:23, each sin that somebody commits merits the death
penalty. What that means is that if somebody lied a total of say, fifty times
in their lifetime, then they will be given fifty death sentences: one for each
of those lies. But there's a problem-- there is only one resurrection allotted
per person (Dan 12:2, John 5:29). So then, the liar can pay for one of his
fifty lies; but he has no way to pay for the remaining forty-nine lies because
he'll quite frankly have no more lives with which to pay his debts to God's law.
This is where Jesus' death comes in. He died for every sin that mankind has
already committed, and will ever commit. So then, his death easily covers all
fifty of those lies in the above example. Which means of course, that when a
liar covered by Christ's crucifixion comes back from death by means of his one
allotted resurrection; he won't have to die again in the reservoir of liquefied
flame depicted at Rev 20:10-15 because he won't have any lies to die for--
Jesus will have taken them all upon himself thus leaving the liar in the clear.
Pretty cool.
Buen Camino
/
rstrats, on 05 Feb 2013 - 05:03, said : Exactly what death penalty did
the Messiah take upon Himself that would otherwise have to be taken by us?
According to Rom 5:12-14, everybody's first death is ear-marked for Adam's
transgression; so it can't use it to satisfy justice for any of our own sins.
The second death depicted at Rev 20:10-15 is where people will die for
their own sins. However, there's a rub.
According to Rom 6:23, each sin that somebody commits merits the death
penalty. What that means is that if somebody lied a total of say, fifty times
in their lifetime, then they will be given fifty death sentences: one for each
of those lies. But there's a problem-- there is only one resurrection allotted
per person (Dan 12:2, John 5:29). So then, the liar can pay for one of his
fifty lies; but he has no way to pay for the remaining forty-nine lies because
he'll quite frankly have no more lives with which to pay his debts to God's law.
This is where Jesus' death comes in. He died for every sin that mankind has
already committed, and will ever commit. So then, his death easily covers all
fifty of those lies in the above example. Which means of course, that when a
liar covered by Christ's crucifixion comes back from death by means of his one
allotted resurrection; he won't have to die again in the reservoir of liquefied
flame depicted at Rev 20:10-15 because he won't have any lies to die for--
Jesus will have taken them all upon himself thus leaving the liar in the clear.
Pretty cool.
Buen Camino
/
Webers_Home,
I'm afraid I don't see how your post #63 is responsive to my post #62. I wonder if you might explain why you think that it is?
I'm afraid I don't see how your post #63 is responsive to my post #62. I wonder if you might explain why you think that it is?
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.rstrats said:
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
Mal 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
The second death. After all, it is appointed unto men once to die. All die once, but that is not the wages of sin, the wages of sin is death for all eternity. It is being burned to death and converted to ashes in the lake of fire.
John_8:32,
As with Webers_Home, I'm afraid I don't see how your post is responsive to my post #62 unless you're saying that the penalty that the Messiah took upon Himself in our place is for Him to be burned to death and converted to ashes in the lake of fire.
As with Webers_Home, I'm afraid I don't see how your post is responsive to my post #62 unless you're saying that the penalty that the Messiah took upon Himself in our place is for Him to be burned to death and converted to ashes in the lake of fire.
Webers_Home
Well-Known Member
.
rstrats, on 08 Feb 2013 - 05:21, said : I'm afraid I don't see how your
post #63 is responsive to my post #62.
Sorry for the misunderstanding. I'd promise it won't happen again; but I
feel pretty certain that would be a promise I couldn't possibly keep.
Buen Camino
/
rstrats, on 08 Feb 2013 - 05:21, said : I'm afraid I don't see how your
post #63 is responsive to my post #62.
Sorry for the misunderstanding. I'd promise it won't happen again; but I
feel pretty certain that would be a promise I couldn't possibly keep.
Buen Camino
/
The penalty He took was that of death. The means of prosecuting that was for Him crucifixion. For those unwilling to repent and become converted the penalty is death. The means of prosecuting that for the unrepentant is the lake of fire. The means of prosectution does not have to be identical, the end result is death. Do you see method as more important than result here? The method is not the primary, the result is.rstrats said:
John_8:32,
re: "The penalty He took was that of death. The means of prosecuting that was for Him crucifixion. The means of prosecuting that for the unrepentant is the lake of fire...Do you see method as more important than result here?...The means of prosectution does not have to be identical."
Not at all. But you don't seem to see the results as being "identical" either. "Dead" for 3 days and 3 nights versus "dead" for eternity being tortured 24/7.
P.S. Sorry, I forgot that you said: "being burned to death and converted to ashes in the lake of fire".
re: "The penalty He took was that of death. The means of prosecuting that was for Him crucifixion. The means of prosecuting that for the unrepentant is the lake of fire...Do you see method as more important than result here?...The means of prosectution does not have to be identical."
Not at all. But you don't seem to see the results as being "identical" either. "Dead" for 3 days and 3 nights versus "dead" for eternity being tortured 24/7.
P.S. Sorry, I forgot that you said: "being burned to death and converted to ashes in the lake of fire".
Webers_Home
Well-Known Member
.
The reservoir of liquefied flame depicted at Rev 20:10-15 is the second
death. Jesus' crucifixion was his first death, in the which he died for sin
(Rom 6:10). Since Jesus came back from the first death without sin
(Heb 9:28) then it would be unjust of God to incinerate him in the
reservoir.
Believers participated in Christ's first death, and they participated in his
resurrection too (Rom 6:3-13). So then, they are in no danger of the
second death because God reckons them already dead for sin and already
resurrected without sin. In other words: when Jesus died with sin, believers
died with sin, and when Jesus rose from death without sin, believers rose
from death without sin.
This is one of the supernatural aspects of New Testament Christianity that's
very difficult for the average rank and file pew warmer to understand, let alone
accept; which is so why so many of them continue to believe that if they don't
behave themselves they'll go to hell; and of course they will if they neglect to
petition God to permit them to count Christ's death and resurrection as their own.
Buen Camino
/
The reservoir of liquefied flame depicted at Rev 20:10-15 is the second
death. Jesus' crucifixion was his first death, in the which he died for sin
(Rom 6:10). Since Jesus came back from the first death without sin
(Heb 9:28) then it would be unjust of God to incinerate him in the
reservoir.
Believers participated in Christ's first death, and they participated in his
resurrection too (Rom 6:3-13). So then, they are in no danger of the
second death because God reckons them already dead for sin and already
resurrected without sin. In other words: when Jesus died with sin, believers
died with sin, and when Jesus rose from death without sin, believers rose
from death without sin.
This is one of the supernatural aspects of New Testament Christianity that's
very difficult for the average rank and file pew warmer to understand, let alone
accept; which is so why so many of them continue to believe that if they don't
behave themselves they'll go to hell; and of course they will if they neglect to
petition God to permit them to count Christ's death and resurrection as their own.
Buen Camino
/
Webers_Home
Well-Known Member
.
Spirit is able to withstand the eternal fire. I know that's true because the
Devil is able to survive it.
†. Rev 20:10 . . And the Devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the
lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been
thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
According to Mtt 10:28, assassins can kill the human body; but they can't
kill the human soul. However, the eternal fire can destroy both the human
body and the human soul. But man consists of three elements: body, soul,
and spirit (1Thes 5:23, Heb 4:12). So then, though man's body and soul be
destroyed in the reservoir of liquefied flame depicted at Rev 20:11-15,
he will continue to exist as spirit.
Buen Camino
/
Spirit is able to withstand the eternal fire. I know that's true because the
Devil is able to survive it.
†. Rev 20:10 . . And the Devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the
lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been
thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
According to Mtt 10:28, assassins can kill the human body; but they can't
kill the human soul. However, the eternal fire can destroy both the human
body and the human soul. But man consists of three elements: body, soul,
and spirit (1Thes 5:23, Heb 4:12). So then, though man's body and soul be
destroyed in the reservoir of liquefied flame depicted at Rev 20:11-15,
he will continue to exist as spirit.
Buen Camino
/
Webers_Home,
re: "Rev 20:10 . . And the Devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever."
The KJV only has the devil being tormented day and night.
re: "...he [man] will continue to exist as spirit."
Chapter and verse?
re: "Rev 20:10 . . And the Devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever."
The KJV only has the devil being tormented day and night.
re: "...he [man] will continue to exist as spirit."
Chapter and verse?
I probably should have addressed the OP to those who think that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week.
Perhaps someone new looking in will know of some writing asked for in the OP.
Perhaps someone new looking in will know of some writing asked for in the OP.
You bicker, discuss things with your wisdom, rant, rave, and puff up. You're all so busy counting things you know so little about, you don’t take into account why Jesus came to die, and be dead for three days. Why was he dead for three days? Why not one? Why not ten? Do you think God is stupid?
Why did Jesus have to die? Please don’t say, To save our asses. Why was he dead for three days? Please don’t say, “Holy, Holy, Holy.” Figure out what happens to a male body after three days. Do you think everything within a male body dies within the first or second day?
A male human has seed. Jesus had within him the seed of an unborn perfect human race. He died to sacrifice that unborn perfect human race for this one. It is a medical fact, it takes three day for the seed within a male body that has died, too also die.
I often wonder what that unborn race would have been like? I see them raising families. Laughing. Serving our God in ways we only wonder about. What names would they have had? They had to die for you, and me. We are not worth it. Better if they had lived, and we die. I feel guilt they had to die for me.
In your puffed up wisdom, you sit and debate over things you know nothing about, and praise yourselves as good enough to serve God. A real life perfect race died to save us. I would change places with anyone of that seed.
Why did Jesus have to die? Please don’t say, To save our asses. Why was he dead for three days? Please don’t say, “Holy, Holy, Holy.” Figure out what happens to a male body after three days. Do you think everything within a male body dies within the first or second day?
A male human has seed. Jesus had within him the seed of an unborn perfect human race. He died to sacrifice that unborn perfect human race for this one. It is a medical fact, it takes three day for the seed within a male body that has died, too also die.
I often wonder what that unborn race would have been like? I see them raising families. Laughing. Serving our God in ways we only wonder about. What names would they have had? They had to die for you, and me. We are not worth it. Better if they had lived, and we die. I feel guilt they had to die for me.
In your puffed up wisdom, you sit and debate over things you know nothing about, and praise yourselves as good enough to serve God. A real life perfect race died to save us. I would change places with anyone of that seed.
The twelve tribes always counted part days, as full days. Jesus was put in the tomb before the sun set. The day he died was counted as a full day. Thus he was dead three days.
This has been talked about until the cows came home one thousand times over. Look up how the Israelis of that time counted days.
This has been talked about until the cows came home one thousand times over. Look up how the Israelis of that time counted days.
domenic,
re: "This has been talked about until the cows came home one thousand times over.
I only need one time. Do you know of any writing that shows an actual example from the first century or before regarding a period of time that is said to consist of a specific number of days as well as a specific number of nights where the period of time absolutely couldn't have included at least a part of each one of the specific number of days and at least a part of each one of the specific number of nights?
re: "This has been talked about until the cows came home one thousand times over.
I only need one time. Do you know of any writing that shows an actual example from the first century or before regarding a period of time that is said to consist of a specific number of days as well as a specific number of nights where the period of time absolutely couldn't have included at least a part of each one of the specific number of days and at least a part of each one of the specific number of nights?
Check out onah. It is Aramaic. Jesus may have spoken in Aramaic. I know some of the writing is in that.
That is all I’m going to say on the matter. I don’t mind helping people find things, but with the net it’s not all that hard today.
Scholars can’t even agree they have the right day. What are you trying to prove, that Jesus is not the Messiah?
That is all I’m going to say on the matter. I don’t mind helping people find things, but with the net it’s not all that hard today.
Scholars can’t even agree they have the right day. What are you trying to prove, that Jesus is not the Messiah?
domenic,
re: "What are you trying to prove..."
I would simply like to see if the 6th day crucifixion proponents' assertion that a stated specific number of days and a stated specific number of nights did not have to include at least a part of each one of the specific days and at least a part of each one of the specific nights. To that end I'm asking for some writing from the first century of before that shows the use of such a phrase where it absolutely couldn't have included at least a portion of each one of the days and at least a portion of each one of the nights.
re: "What are you trying to prove..."
I would simply like to see if the 6th day crucifixion proponents' assertion that a stated specific number of days and a stated specific number of nights did not have to include at least a part of each one of the specific days and at least a part of each one of the specific nights. To that end I'm asking for some writing from the first century of before that shows the use of such a phrase where it absolutely couldn't have included at least a portion of each one of the days and at least a portion of each one of the nights.
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