Timing of Eze 37 and 38 pre Trib?

[Timtofly]

Why would that be impossible? The wrath of God is over at the 7th trumpet.

If Satan gets 42 months, the 7th Trumpet starts sounding for 3.5 days, keeps sounding for 42 months, and then sounds 3.5 more days while the 2 witnesses lay dead in Jerusalem. The 7 vials are poured out during those last 3 days. The battle of Armageddon is the last hour of the 7th Trumpet.

So the vials are incorporated into the 7th Trumpet. Only because the 7th Trumpet is interrupted by Satan's 42 months.

It should be obvious that if Satan does not get 42 months, the 7 vials will never even be used, as they are for Satan's empire at the end of the 42 months.

If the 7th Trumpet sounds from Sunday to Sunday without interruption, then at the end the winepress mentioned in Revelation 14 brings a close to Adam's flesh and blood, exactly what Armageddon would have done 42 months later.

The 7th Trumpet stops, the Millennium starts either way. Why can no one see the 6 Trumpets and 7 Thunders are the final harvest? Jesus removes the church at the Second Coming. Jesus continues to divide Israel between the sheep and the goats for the firstfruits of the Millennium. There are still wheat and tares among the Nations to be harvested for the Millennium. Since this is the time of the final harvest, Satan only gets 42 months if a few souls are left to harvest, ie those beheaded who do not receive the mark. The mark only starts being applied after the 7th Trumpet starts, because during the 7th Trumpet, to be saved, one must not receive the mark and cut off their head so the mark will not be placed. A dead person will not be marked once their head is separated from the body.

Most people deny the 7th Trumpet is prolonged. They think it is a simple blast and "poof" everything finished. The 7th Trumpet brings the final harvest to a close. It is and happens after 6 other Trumpets and 7 Thunders. It is not the Second Coming. The harvest of the Trumpets and Thunders already had Jesus and the angels on the earth for the final harvest. Matthew 13 clearly spells out that Jesus is on the earth both sowing and reaping.

"He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear."

This is Jesus explaining a parable, not the actual parable. Jesus is literally on earth sowing and reaping. The church is not. The angels are on earth. The church is not. The church is not mentioned at all in this explanation, because Jesus and the angels are on the earth during the 6 Trumpets and 7 Thunders, not the church. The 144k are on the earth, not the church. The church met Jesus in the air, was glorified, and remain in Paradise, because they are not part of this harvest according to Jesus in Matthew 13.

This kingdom is not the kingdom of the first century. The angels were not present, the 12 disciples were. The 144k were not present, the 12 disciples were. This kingdom is not the current church for the last 1992 years. Jesus and the angels have not been present, the church has been present.

One can define this as the end of the world or age, but it is definitely after the end of the church, because the church is not present, Jesus and the angels are. Since Jesus is on earth, the Second Coming happened. This harvest is not over in an instant. So any interpretation that claims just simple blasts from instant moments of time, and try to put this all at the 7th Trumpet ignore Jesus' explanation in Matthew 13.

 

[dad]

If Satan gets 42 months, the 7th Trumpet starts sounding for 3.5 days, keeps sounding for 42 months, and then sounds 3.5 more days while the 2 witnesses lay dead in Jerusalem. The 7 vials are poured out during those last 3 days. The battle of Armageddon is the last hour of the 7th Trumpet.

The witnesses prophesy for 1260 days then they are killed. That is the second half of the seven years. Claiming that the seventh trumpet will blow for years after they die is foolishness.
Revelation 11:15
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

The time 'satan gets' is over when Jesus returns! His leaders here are tossed into the lake of fire and all kingdoms are ruled by God. We are not told how long trumpets blow. It is not years!
For example

10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;

It does not take a star falling from the sky years to land.

So the vials are incorporated into the 7th Trumpet. Only because the 7th Trumpet is interrupted by Satan's 42 months.

When the seventh trumpet sounds, all kingdoms are ruled by Jesus. There is no demons or devil or antichrist etc. This is not really a thread for outright nonsense.

 

[Timtofly]

So the seals are opened, and that covers all the seven years. It tells us in capsule form what happens right on up till Jesus returns. If this is the case, then the vials and trumpets that are in later chapters are not to be looked at as if they follow the seals chronologically. Instead, they are details of what was already covered in the seals. So the first thing we see in chapter seven is that the angel with God's seal is on the scene and ready to seal people on earth. Since we are now being given the details of what happens and was covered quickly in the seals, we know that people get sealed by this angel early in the Tribulation.

You are forcing Jesus to address the world all at the same time. The Seals, Trumpets, and Thunders are not about time at all. They are about "to whom" Jesus is dealing with. The chronology happens because Jesus deals with each individual group separately, not in a blink of an eye. The Seals deal with the church, not Israel, and not the Nations. Yes, Israel and the Nations are affected. But until the church is dealt with, Jesus does not move on to the Trumpets and Israel. Until Israel is dealt with, Jesus does not move on to the Thunders and the Nations. The Thunders were never written down, because neither the church nor Israel will be around during the Thunders.

The Bible was specifically given to and about Israel and the church. It was written about the Nations, but not to them. The Nations represent those in the undecided group. The promises and punishment for those in a relationship with God do not really apply to the undecided, as they don't have a relationship with God. Many have decided to be totally in an antagonistic relationship with God. They receive the damnation and judgments in Scripture. We were never given the details of the Nations between Noah and Abraham. They were the majority of undecided because other than the testimony of Noah, there was never a close relationship that God offered until God took Abraham out of the Nations, the undecided.

At the Second Coming, Jesus deals with the church in the Seals first, then Israel in the Trumpets for Abraham's sake. Then Jesus will deal directly with the Nations those undecided at the time of the Second Coming. If and only if the 42 month extension is necessary there will be an obvious decision to follow Satan, removed from the Lamb's book of life, and marked. The undecided are those with a head and no mark. Those who decide, no longer have a head, because the decision was to chop off one's head. The undecided had their head, until they decided.

The vials are only necessary, if Satan is allowed 42 months. The 42 months and Revelation 13 may not even happen. Only at the sound of the 7th Trumpet will that even be determined. Revelation 10. Daniel 9:27 is the sounding of the 7th Trumpet, not some gap in time between the first century and a Second Coming, based on the events of 70AD, or even the Cross, and the end of the OT economy.

Verse 26 is about the Cross and the 70AD event. Verse 27 is about the final harvest at the end of the fulness of the Gentiles. The 7th Trumpet brings to a close several prophetic timeliness, including the end of Adam's punishment itself. It is not a simple instant blast. It is the prolonged celebration of the end of one punishment, one promise to Israel, and the kingdom on earth for a new period of human history. There is always a third group, those on earth. The "undecided" may probably be the best description. They are not in Paradise in the presence of God. They are not in death/sheol separated from God. This third group is on earth. Many today tend to see many on earth as "just the lost". But they are not technically "lost" until death places them either in Paradise or Death. Some even think many get saved, lost, saved, lost as an ongoing phenomenon. Others are more dogmatic and condemn the living to everlasting damnation while they are still walking around on earth. They literally have no hope for them. God already condemned them before creation, so now other humans can condemn them as well. The problem is that even those dogmatic about it, may be eternally condemned as well, they just seem to not care. Because someone at some point declared such theology, it just has to be true. So literally all theology views humans as either saved or lost, there is no in-between, the undecided.

Jesus told Nicodemus, "Ye must be born again". This never implied he would automatically be born again at some point. This never implied he would never be born again. So the only option that can be applied is that Nicodemus would have to decide to be born again. We have 3 groups: 1) those who have decided including those who could never mentally decide. (God is not willing that any should perish. Not: God is willing as long as humans decide. There is no limitation on God's side.)
2) those who make a conscious decision to reject God. (God does not force via predetermination some to be damned even if they believe nor some to be saved even if they refuse to believe)
3) those undecided who put the decision off as long as they can.

The Millennium is made up of the undecided whom Jesus chooses. The 144k were undecided. The sheep are those in Israel who were undecided. The wheat is a remnant of all Nations who are undecided. Then we come down to the last 42 months, when those beheaded make a decision to cut off their heads as their decision to being a testimony to Christ. They are resurrected. The 144k, the sheep, and the wheat simply are souls changed out of Adam's dead flesh into permanent incorruptible physical bodies by the grace of God. God chose them. The final harvest is truly those directly elected, and they know they were chosen. There was nothing ambiguous during this final harvest. They all rule and reign with Christ as firstfruits of the Millennial Kingdom on earth.

During the next 1,000 years there are still 2 groups for those who like to have it one way or the other. The first generation is one group. All other generations form the second group. The first generation is represented as the "camp of the saints". They can never rebel or decide to go against God. That attribute is not genetically passed down like Adam's sin nature. Obedience is still at the individual level. Nor is there Adam's sin nature to be passed down, as the Millennium started with God's elected firstfruits without sin. So literally the whole Millennium is filled with the undecided, because disobedience is a decision that ends in immediate Death.

No one chooses to live, that is the default condition always. Only after the 1,000 years will Satan be loosed. Then and only then will all these undecided have a choice to follow Satan and stop following God. Which ends with them being consumed by fire as a whole group in solidarity with each other. This is the only time God allows a group to formalize a complaint against the perfect living conditions. Other than the point mentioned about Nations not sending their representatives to Jerusalem as required by Law. Citizens within a Nation can be affected, but are not killed by a decision made by their leadership. Remember than no single group large or small can form a solidarity to change their collective laws in defiance of the iron rod rule of Jesus.

Just like no group can choose to make life better than it already is. Some still think it is unjust for God not to let humanity fail. Yet that comes from the dichotomy of knowing good and evil. I don't think the knowledge of Good and Evil will exist in the Millennium, so there will not be black and white. Nor will there be sinners nor a sin nature, which all deal with the knowledge of good and evil. All will be undecided, because no black and white choices will be available. Many cannot even comprehend what this will be like. They force Adam's flesh and blood to exist in the Millennium for this very reason.

 

[Timtofly]

The wrath of God starts at the 7th trump not ends. The scripture is clear:

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

It's the 7th trump in which the wrath comes, and this is when Christ will destroy those who destroyed the Earth. Clearly wrath is not ending but starting.



Barnes:

And thy wrath is come - That is, the time when thou wilt punish them for all that they have done in opposition to thee, and when the wicked shall be cut off. There will be, in the setting up of the kingdom of God, some manifestation of his wrath against the powers that opposed it; or something that will show his purpose to destroy his enemies, and to judge the wicked.

John is quoting Psalms 2:

1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?

2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the Lord, and against his anointed, saying,

3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.

4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.

5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.

6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.

7 I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.

11 Serve the Lord with fear, and rejoice with trembling.

12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

Even if this was purely prophetic, even in David's day, Israel was fully aware of Jesus the Messiah and the Prince. Fully aware of the iron rod rule. Fully aware of God's wrath. I don't see how God's wrath is limited to a single period of time. Certainly sin and wickedness is not limited to a single period of time.

Since wrath is equal to man's wickedness there are times when wickedness and wrath abound, and where wickedness and wrath is less noticeable. God's wrath was already being poured out, as the 144k were sealed to be immune to God's wrath. What may happen is that God's wrath would even exceed Satan's desolation. Obviously when the vials of wrath are poured out that is definitely the wrath of God, but in the instance of this verse in Revelation 11, we see the fulfillment of Psalm 2, but no one can say, God's wrath was not already being felt, and then suddenly felt. Nor does Psalm 2 limit God's wrath to the heathen. Even the church is dealt wrath at the Second Coming as well, whether drastic or mild.

 

[ewq1938]

The witnesses prophesy for 1260 days then they are killed. That is the second half of the seven years.

There is no 7 years. The 1260/42 months is the full length of the Great Tribulation. Any time before that is not part of the Great Tribulation. Remember that Christ shortened the original 7 year length of it found in Daniel:

Mat_24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

You can't have a 7 year Great Tribulation then shorten it down to 7 years.

 

[The Light]

If Satan gets 42 months, the 7th Trumpet starts sounding for 3.5 days, keeps sounding for 42 months, and then sounds 3.5 more days while the 2 witnesses lay dead in Jerusalem. The 7 vials are poured out during those last 3 days. The battle of Armageddon is the last hour of the 7th Trumpet.

So the vials are incorporated into the 7th Trumpet. Only because the 7th Trumpet is interrupted by Satan's 42 months.

It should be obvious that if Satan does not get 42 months, the 7 vials will never even be used, as they are for Satan's empire at the end of the 42 months.

I don't know where you have come up with this stuff. When the 7th trumpet BEGINS to sound, the wrath of God is OVER.

Rev 10
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

If the 7th Trumpet sounds from Sunday to Sunday without interruption, then at the end the winepress mentioned in Revelation 14 brings a close to Adam's flesh and blood, exactly what Armageddon would have done 42 months later.

The coming of Jesus in Rev 14 is the coming of Jesus BEFORE the wrath of God. This occurs at the 6th seal. Wrath is over at the 7th trumpet(Rev 11). You are back in the seals in Rev 13 and 14.

 

[Timtofly]

The witnesses prophesy for 1260 days then they are killed. That is the second half of the seven years. Claiming that the seventh trumpet will blow for years after they die is foolishness.
Revelation 11:15
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

I never said the 7th Trumpet sounds for years after they die. The 7th Trumpet starts to sound.

3.5 days later the week is split in half.

Satan is given 42 months, the same time as the 2 witnesses' 1260 days.

Trumpet is still sounding, the 2 witnesses killed. 3 days later they raise early Sunday morning. Armageddon for 1 hour, 5pm to 6pm.

At 6pm the 7th Trumpet stops, the Millennium begins. Evening and morning start the Millennium just as in Genesis 1.

So either the 7th Trumpet starts, goes 3.5 days. Waits 42 months. Then the last 3.5 days starts back up, yes, it goes for the whole 42 months; 3.5 years and then 3.5 days. Or 1263.5 days after the interruption to the week. Daniel 9:27

"in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

Jesus is very capable as God to declare when Salvation stops and starts. No verse states Jesus and Satan co-reign for 42 months. Satan does not battle and defeat Jesus. Jesus as God removes the Atonement opportunity to live as righteousness in Satan's 42 months. There are only the 2 individual witnesses. People are being marked or beheaded. There is no sitting on the fence trying to avoid making a decision, is there? Would you prefer people starve in misery outcast from society or loose their head and make a quick decision to follow God? Where do you think people are going to hide out from the FP, Satan, the beast, all the angels loosed from the pit (which could be millions or billions), and the majority of people who gladly take the mark and join normal society, even as utterly desolate as it will be? Those beheaded will be totally outnumbered and hunted down. Even 42 months seems like overkill, but that seems to be the minimum time alloted with no smaller amounts available.

I don't really see a difference between fire coming out of their mouths and killing people or they being the means of removing people's heads. Is being beheaded figurative? Is being consumed by fire figurative?

The term beheaded is only found 7 times in the whole Bible. 2 times in the OT. 4 times in the Gospels all related to John the Baptist. Only once in Revelation 20:4. So John never even describes who, how, or really why any one is beheaded until after the fact. John never claims they are beheaded by the government.

"And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will."

No, beheading people is not found in this description. But nothing here rules out that these two witnesses are not involved. Perhaps the closer to this 42 month period, the more sense it would make than to actually point it out 1900 years ago?

These 2 witnesses can only be during the same 42 months as Satan, because the church does not go around killing people figuratively nor literally, to both kill their enemies and send people to a resurrection specifically described for a specific reason, being beheaded.

Jesus and the angels along with the 144k are reaping the final harvest during the Trumpets and Thunders no matter how long of time that is, but that stops at the 7th Trumpet. Because that is when all Nations are declared to be under the Authority of Jesus. Revelation 11:15 is the declaration of accomplishment.

The 7th Trumpet is not the start of the Second Coming. It is the completion of the Second Coming. When the 7th Trumpet stops, the Millennium begins.

 

[dad]

You are forcing Jesus to address the world all at the same time. The Seals, Trumpets, and Thunders are not about time at all. They are about "to whom" Jesus is dealing with

I am not forcing anything. The events are very much time related. So one needs to know what is last and what is first, and what is in between as a starting point to comprehension.

The chronology happens because Jesus deals with each individual group separately, not in a blink of an eye. The Seals deal with the church, not Israel, and not the Nations.

Let's look at one seal as an example. It is easy to see that it is not the Bride He was talking to here, let alone talking to exclusively!

4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

The Bible was specifically given to and about Israel and the church

Says who?
There is plenty written for folks in the tribulation also, for example. Not just Israel, and certainly not for a raptured church.

At the Second Coming, Jesus deals with the church in the Seals first, then Israel in the Trumpets for Abraham's sake.

Except you made that up. Whole of cloth.

The vials are only necessary, if Satan is allowed 42 months.

The vials are the completion of the wrath, and are poured out on a wicked world, not on a world after Jesus starts to rule!

The 42 months and Revelation 13 may not even happen. Only at the sound of the 7th Trumpet will that even be determined. Revelation 10. Daniel 9:27 is the sounding of the 7th Trumpet, not some gap in time between the first century and a Second Coming, based on the events of 70AD, or even the Cross, and the end of the OT economy.

Verse 26 is about the Cross and the 70AD event

Let's look at it.

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

This whole thing is about what happens in the seventy weeks. One thing is that Jesus was killed for others. Then it talks about a war that involves a covenant for seven years.

Sorry, that never happened yet.

The Millennium is made up of the undecided whom Jesus chooses. The 144k were undecided.

Says who? Show us the verse that says the special witnesses of the end time were 'undecided'??

The sheep are those in Israel who were undecided.

Jesus has plenty of sheep that were not of that fold actually.

The wheat is a remnant of all Nations who are undecided.

The wheat are the good guys here. The ones that choose to accept His gift. Nothing undecided involved at all.

Then we come down to the last 42 months, when those beheaded make a decision to cut off their heads as their decision to being a testimony to Christ. They are resurrected.

They do not decide to cut their own heads off. Neither are they resurrected before the time. That is still in the tribulation.

The 144k, the sheep, and the wheat simply are souls changed out of Adam's dead flesh into permanent incorruptible physical bodies by the grace of God.

Again you made that up. Show a verse that says the wheat is any such thing? Like the sheep and goats, it merely speaks of God's people and the devil's crowd.

God chose them

He gives us the choice and when we choose Him, we are the chosen. Period. There are no others.
The wheat all chose Jesus! The sheep all chose Jesus! All that the Father gave Jesus were those that chose Jesus!

 

[dad]

There is no 7 years. The 1260/42 months is the full length of the Great Tribulation. Any time before that is not part of the Great Tribulation. Remember that Christ shortened the original 7 year length of it found in Daniel:

No. The covenant is made for seven years and only broken in the middle of that. There are seven years still, no one shortened what God said would be! What is shortened is included in that last time. Otherwise man would no longer exist and all flesh would die.

You can't have a 7 year Great Tribulation then shorten it down to 7 years.

The Great Tribulation is only the last part. The seven year tribulation is the seven years that includes the Great Tribulation. No one is shortening one day of that.

 

[Timtofly]

There is no 7 years. The 1260/42 months is the full length of the Great Tribulation. Any time before that is not part of the Great Tribulation. Remember that Christ shortened the original 7 year length of it found in Daniel:

Mat_24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

You can't have a 7 year Great Tribulation then shorten it down to 7 years.

You cannot even shorten it down to 42 months. It is plausible that it could be as short as 5 or 6 months. Which point in Matthew 24 do you see as Satan's 42 months? The fig tree blooming? The Second Coming? The GT, or the appearance of the AoD?

 

[ewq1938]

No. The covenant is made for seven years and only broken in the middle of that.

That's the old plan. The new is now shorter.

Mat_24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

You can't have a 7 year Great Tribulation then shorten it down to 7 years.

 

[dad]

I never said the 7th Trumpet sounds for years after they die. The 7th Trumpet starts to sound.

3.5 days later the week is split in half.

The end comes at the end of the seven years, which includes the Great Trib. The witnesses do not die at the start of it, they START!

Satan is given 42 months, the same time as the 2 witnesses' 1260 days.

All before Jesus returns.

Trumpet is still sounding, the 2 witnesses killed. 3 days later they raise early Sunday morning. Armageddon for 1 hour, 5pm to 6pm.

Who invented that timing?

By the way if any poster here is a JW, or mormon, please identify yourselves.

At 6pm the 7th Trumpet stops, the Millennium begins. Evening and morning start the Millennium just as in Genesis 1.

Not sure why you feel free to make silly stuff up and post it here.

So either the 7th Trumpet starts, goes 3.5 days. Waits 42 months. Then the last 3.5 days starts back up, yes, it goes for the whole 42 months; 3.5 years and then 3.5 days. Or 1263.5 days after the interruption to the week. Daniel 9:27

That is confused blather.

Jesus is very capable as God to declare when Salvation stops and starts.

He already did. He said whosoever believes will be saved.

No verse states Jesus and Satan co-reign for 42 months.

No kidding.

Satan does not battle and defeat Jesus. Jesus as God removes the Atonement opportunity to live as righteousness in Satan's 42 months. There are only the 2 individual witnesses. People are being marked or beheaded. There is no sitting on the fence trying to avoid making a decision, is there? Would you prefer people starve in misery outcast from society or loose their head and make a quick decision to follow God? Where do you think people are going to hide out from the FP, Satan, the beast, all the angels loosed from the pit (which could be millions or billions), and the majority of people who gladly take the mark and join normal society, even as utterly desolate as it will be? Those beheaded will be totally outnumbered and hunted down. Even 42 months seems like overkill, but that seems to be the minimum time alloted with no smaller amounts available.

More confused preaching. Yes of course lots of people die for their faith in that time...so?

I don't really see a difference between fire coming out of their mouths and killing people or they being the means of removing people's heads. Is being beheaded figurative? Is being consumed by fire figurative?

Well, one is done by God and His witnesses, and the other is done by Satan and his leaders. How would anyone not see a difference?

The term beheaded is only found 7 times in the whole Bible. 2 times in the OT. 4 times in the Gospels all related to John the Baptist. Only once in Revelation 20:4. So John never even describes who, how, or really why any one is beheaded until after the fact. John never claims they are beheaded by the government.

Who did you think did it, God?

No, beheading people is not found in this description. But nothing here rules out that these two witnesses are not involved.

Say what? I hope you are not suggesting God's witnesses behead people?

These 2 witnesses can only be during the same 42 months as Satan, because the church does not go around killing people figuratively nor literally, to both kill their enemies and send people to a resurrection specifically described for a specific reason, being beheaded.

No secret as to when the 2 witnesses are.

Jesus and the angels along with the 144k are reaping the final harvest during the Trumpets and Thunders no matter how long of time that is

Say what? Now you think the saved Jews are running around reaping a harvest in the end??

The 7th Trumpet is not the start of the Second Coming.

It is the completion of the Second Coming. When the 7th Trumpet stops, the Millennium begins.

The trumpet does not need to KEEP sounding all the while Jesus is mopping up His enemies. It sounded to say, the time had come.

 

[dad]

That's the old plan. The new is now shorter.

Mat_24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

You can't have a 7 year Great Tribulation then shorten it down to 7 years.

No one shortens the seven years. Period.

 

[Timtofly]

I don't know where you have come up with this stuff. When the 7th trumpet BEGINS to sound, the wrath of God is OVER.

Rev 10
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

The coming of Jesus in Rev 14 is the coming of Jesus BEFORE the wrath of God. This occurs at the 6th seal. Wrath is over at the 7th trumpet(Rev 11). You are back in the seals in Rev 13 and 14.

I agree. Satan should not have any time at all. There should be no abomination and desolation per Daniel 9:27 or Revelation 13. But Revelation 13 was written after the 7th Trumpet, not prior to.

Sorry, but John wrote after each event he saw. No where does it state John traveled back and forth through time like he was unlocking a puzzle.

That craziness about the book hopping back and forth chronologically is pure human imagination.

The Seals are God dealing with the church at the Second Coming. Once a seal was opened there is no going back to a previous Seal.

After the church is removed, Jesus deals with Israel during the 6 Trumpets. Jesus is sitting on His throne in Jerusalem during the Trumpets. Matthew 25:31. The OD is not in Chronological order, because it was a multiple day event. During the day, Jesus was in the temple, during the night on the Mount of Olives, and no one will agree on the order and even to whom. It is impossible because the Gospels were recalled memories and were not supposed to be orderly nor chronological, even with the help of the Holy Spirit. Revelation on the other hand was John literally writing while things happened. It was not a dream or vision that John "attempted" to get right the day after.

 

[Timtofly]

This whole thing is about what happens in the seventy weeks. One thing is that Jesus was killed for others. Then it talks about a war that involves a covenant for seven years.

Now you are just making stuff up. There is no war mentioned in Daniel 9:27.

Do you think the AoD has been constantly ongoing since the first century? As well as a war the whole time?

Of course we are in the 70 weeks. They started in Daniel's time and will be over when the Millennium starts.

The Atonement is the Covenant made. It is for all time, not just 7 years. There is no 7 year confirmation period. The 7th Trumpet is the week long confirmation. It is a set of days, not years. Perhaps one should interpret Daniel with Revelation, instead of Revelation with a single verse in Daniel?

He gives us the choice and when we choose Him, we are the chosen. Period. There are no others.
The wheat all chose Jesus! The sheep all chose Jesus! All that the Father gave Jesus were those that chose Jesus!

What verse in Scripture ever claims the wheat and sheep made a choice? This is pure speculation. You are trying to project these two accounts onto the church age prior to the Second Coming. That is impossible. Jesus does not separate the sheep and wheat in midair at the Second Coming, as you conclude. Read Matthew 13 and Matthew 25 again. They do not describe being caught up in a blink of an eye.

 

[ewq1938]

No one shortens the seven years. Period.

Christ said it so it is true.

Mat_24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

 

[dad]

Now you are just making stuff up. There is no war mentioned in Daniel 9:27.

I posted the verses before and after that one. Sorry if context is the enemy of your schemes.

Do you think the AoD has been constantly ongoing since the first century?

Why would anyone think that? Once it is here the clock is ticking and time is short.

As well as a war the whole time?

What whole time?

Of course we are in the 70 weeks. They started in Daniel's time and will be over when the Millennium starts.

You got one point right. Pour the bubbly.

The Atonement is the Covenant made.

What atonement? Hopefully you are not talking about Jesus when He was here? No one confirmed any deal for seven years then.

It is for all time, not just 7 years. There is no 7 year confirmation period.

Let's look at the verse and see if you agree with it.
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

So there IS a seven year period in the end after all.

The 7th Trumpet is the week long confirmation. It is a set of days, not years.

So now all the weeks are days rather than sets of sevens as the bible says?

How does that work, did Jesus come 69 days after Gabriel visited Daniel?!! Or do you get to wave a magic wand and get anything to mean whatever your cult or group or denomination prefers?

Perhaps one should interpret Daniel with Revelation, instead of Revelation with a single verse in Daniel?

Why pretend anyone does that? Revelation refers to scores of old testament passages.

What verse in Scripture ever claims the wheat and sheep made a choice?

If they wheat and sheep are His people then need you ask?

This is pure speculation. You are trying to project these two accounts onto the church age prior to the Second Coming.

Jesus did that by mentioning the end of the world in connection with the harvest. But there is no church here since they were raptured in the end. So you are projecting dreams.

That is impossible. Jesus does not separate the sheep and wheat in midair at the Second Coming,

You thought the wheat had to be separated from the chaff way up in the air?? Strange.

as you conclude. Read Matthew 13 and Matthew 25 again. They do not describe being caught up in a blink of an eye.

You thought anyone said it was?

 

[dad]

Christ said it so it is true.

Mat_24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

False. Christ said the days are shortened, but the seven years includes that. That is a shortened timeframe for earth as He rushes all things to completion! It is not the seven years that are cut short, but any time earth may have had that could have been longer. Don't blame your confusion on God.

 

[ewq1938]

False. Christ said the days are shortened, but the seven years includes that.

So again with the whole 7 years shortened down to 7 years. This is false. It was shortened from 7 years down to 42 months or half of 7 years.

Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

The Great Tribulation is not one day longer than 42 months.

 

[The Light]

I agree. Satan should not have any time at all. There should be no abomination and desolation per Daniel 9:27 or Revelation 13. But Revelation 13 was written after the 7th Trumpet, not prior to.

Sorry, but John wrote after each event he saw. No where does it state John traveled back and forth through time like he was unlocking a puzzle.

That craziness about the book hopping back and forth chronologically is pure human imagination.

You need to pay attention to what you are reading. Rev 11 is THE END OF THE WRATH OF GOD. The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord. Armageddon has happened and the MYSTERY OF GOD IS FINISHED. Don't you notice that when you go to Rev 12 you go back to before the birth of Christ.

How can you understand that the tribulation is over at the 6th seal and don't understand that you are in the great tribualtion AGAIN in Rev 14.

Here is the great tribulation at the 5th seal
Rev 6
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Here is the great tribulation in Rev 14.

Rev 14
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

You know that Jesus comes at the 6th seal and there is a rapture. Here is the exact same coming of Jesus in Rev 14
Rev 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

The Seals are God dealing with the church at the Second Coming. Once a seal was opened there is no going back to a previous Seal.

The only reason you are going back to previous seals is because the story has ended. The wrath of God is over at the 7th trumpet. When the 7th trumpet begins to sound the mystery of God is FINISHED. Rev 13 and 14 are back in the seals because the story is over and now you get more details of the same story. That's why there is a coming of Jesus at the 6th seal, and then the wrath of God begins. And there is a coming of Jesus in Rev 14 and then the wrath of God begins. It's the same story.
Rev 6
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Rev 14
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

After the church is removed, Jesus deals with Israel during the 6 Trumpets.

No Tim, the seals are the 70th week of Daniel which is about Israel. The Church is removed before the seals are opened. Here are the elders with their reward crowns in Rev 4 and here are the kings and priest of the Church in Rev 5
Rev 4
4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

Rev 5
0 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Jesus is sitting on His throne in Jerusalem during the Trumpets. Matthew 25:31. The OD is not in Chronological order, because it was a multiple day event. During the day, Jesus was in the temple, during the night on the Mount of Olives, and no one will agree on the order and even to whom. It is impossible because the Gospels were recalled memories and were not supposed to be orderly nor chronological, even with the help of the Holy Spirit. Revelation on the other hand was John literally writing while things happened. It was not a dream or vision that John "attempted" to get right the day after.

The seals are the 70th week of Daneil as God turns His attention to His Chosen after the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. At the 7th seal the wrath of God begins. At the 7th trumpet the wrath of God ends. The dead are judged and rewards are given. Then the story put you back in the seals in Rev 13 and 14. And then the wrath of God begins in Rev 15. And then Gods wrath ends.

The wrath of God is over in Rev 11, when the 7th trumpet sounds. Here is what happens at the end.

Rev 11
19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

The exact same thing happens at the end of Rev 16. You are looking at the same story. The wrath of God is over at the 7th vial. There are lightnings and voices and thunder, an earthquake and great hail.

Rev 16
18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.