Timing of Eze 37 and 38 pre Trib?

[dad]

Scripture is on my side. Christ said the Great Tribulation was to be shortened. This was new information. It changes the old 7 year Great Tribulation from Daniel.

No. The time was shortened, not the prophesy that took that into account already. Nothing is on your side.

 

[dad]

No you did.

You claimed there was a war for 7 years, because Daniel 9:27 said so.

Show me the quote where you think I said that. There is a war mentioned, yes. I suspect that might be connected to the covenant mentioned. It doesn't really matter though. By the way it was not Dan 9:27 that mentioned a war. So who are the people of the prince in Dan 9:26? The power that was in place when Jesus was killed was Rome. The people who destroyed Jerusalem was Rome. The Prince in the end will be the leader of the revived Roman Empire. (the ten kings under the AntiChrist) So the people of the prince would seemingly be his people.

 

[ewq1938]

No. The time was shortened, not the prophesy that took that into account already. Nothing is on your side.

Everything is on my side:

Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

The beast only has 42 months, that's it. That is the full length of the shortened tribulation. It used to be 84 months, now it's 42.

 

[dad]

What I told you about no flesh being saved is correct.

Jesus pointed out no flesh would be saved if those days were not shortened.

However, you are correct in saying that the rapture of the Church will happen before the 7 years. That is when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in and God turns His attention to Israel.

We seem to agree on that one.

I keep telling you, I don't care how many TV preachers tell you that the wrath of God and the tribulation are the same period, they are not. The tribulation is over at the 6th seal, and then the wrath of God begins. The wrath of God does not last 7 years.

I disagree. The last and most sever part of the wrath is at the end of the Tr4ibulation, and when Jesus returns. That does not mean it is the only wrath. Looking at the seals and trumpets and vials it is all wrath as far as I am concerned.
That time is spoken of as days of vengeance.

Luke 21:22 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

That is talking about the Tribulation! Not after.

IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Rev 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

The tribulation is OVER at the 6th seal. Then the wrath of God begins.

Rev 6
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

The sixth seal certainly tells of the time His wrath comes hot and heavy. Another verse calls the vials the completion of His wrath. That means there was also wrath before this, but the vials really wrap it up.

I never said the 7 years is shortened.

Great.

The tribulation is shortened but not the 7 years.

No. The years and months and days given are not changed in any way. There are appointed days for that Great Tribulation. The days God appointed took into account that that was all the time man could have. Whatever other possible times may have existed were shortened..NOT the seven years or the last part of the seven years.

So if the tribulation and the wrath of God are the same timeframe, how could He shorten the days? Answer, they are not the same timeframe.

False. That was not what was shortened. The days of the end for man were shortened TO the seven years! The given times in prophesy ARE the shortened times.

 

[dad]

Everything is on my side:

Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

The beast only has 42 months, that's it. That is the full length of the shortened tribulation. It used to be 84 months, now it's 42.

False. The beast does not appear out of thin air one day. The beast is a man alive that will be revealed one day. That leader does not pop onto the planet the day he sets up the abomination of desolation in the holy place! For all we know he was in power long before that time. Once he blasphemes the holy place, then the clock is ticking and he has only the 42 months LEFT. Nothing in the seven years is shorted. God did not make a mistake. You made the mistake thinking that the exact times prophesied did not take into account that the days for man were shortened to what the prophesy spells out.

 

[ewq1938]

False. The beast does not appear out of thin air one day. The beast is a man alive that will be revealed one day. That leader does not pop onto the planet the day he sets up the abomination of desolation in the holy place! For all we know he was in power long before that time. Once he blasphemes the holy place, then the clock is ticking and he has only the 42 months LEFT. Nothing in the seven years is shorted. God did not make a mistake. You made the mistake thinking that the exact times prophesied did not take into account that the days for man were shortened to what the prophesy spells out.

From the first day he is revealed to the world as the false god, the 42 month clock is ticking. That is when tribulation against Christians begins and it doesn't stop until Christ returns.

 

[Timtofly]

You need to pay attention to what you are reading. Rev 11 is THE END OF THE WRATH OF GOD. The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord. Armageddon has happened and the MYSTERY OF GOD IS FINISHED. Don't you notice that when you go to Rev 12 you go back to before the birth of Christ.

How can you understand that the tribulation is over at the 6th seal and don't understand that you are in the great tribualtion AGAIN in Rev 14.

If Revelation 11:15 happens after Armageddon, when does the 42 months start? How is there desolation in the midst of a week that has already been over?

I am not the one saying the Seals even represent Matthew 24:21-28. You are. The Seals are not specified in the OD. Why people attempt to get their chronology from the OD is beyond comprehension. John gives the correct chronological order, because he is an eyewitness of the literal event. The Gospels are just bits and pieces of what Jesus said those few days in the temple and on the mount of Olives just before His crucifixion.

Here is the great tribulation at the 5th seal
Rev 6
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Here is the great tribulation in Rev 14.

Rev 14
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

You know that Jesus comes at the 6th seal and there is a rapture. Here is the exact same coming of Jesus in Rev 14
Rev 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

The 5th Seal does not mention tribulation nor martyrdom as the main event of this seal. If this is even mentioning the OD, it would definitely not be Matthew 24:21-22. It would be Matthew 24:4-13

"And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows. Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."

Stephen and James were martyrs. Peter was put in prison. These souls represent the whole church from the Cross until now. It is not about the Trumpets, Thunders, nor anything in Revelation after chapter 7.

The 5th Seal event is only about the church being glorified, "putting on a robe of white". Paul describes it as "putting on immortality". The whole church from all time, even those just raptured from the earth are glorified. They are waiting until Jesus and the angels finish the final harvest during the Trumpets and Thunders. The 7th Trumpet declares the final harvest is over and now all nations are given to Jesus as Prince. This final harvest is the greatest tribulation without precedent. It is the end of Adam's flesh and blood. All souls have to shed Adam's flesh. And at the same time all the angels who rebelled and followed Satan are unleashed to torment all of humanity on earth.. the church is not on the earth. You can call this God's wrath, not God's wrath. The wrath of the Lamb, or not. What you cannot do is claim the Trumpets and Thunders happen at the same time as the first 4 Seals. The Second Coming happens because that is when Jesus comes to earth with His angels. The 6th Seal brings Jesus to earth. Jesus only leaves if Satan is given 42 months. And this 42 months is not during the Seals, Trumpets, nor Thunders.

Souls under the alter is the symbolism meaning all redeemed by the Atonement of the Cross. The 7th Trumpet is the confirmation the Atonement Covenant is completed and confirmed. The only event associated with the 5th Seal is the church being glorified. Some here want to make the 5th Seal into the wrong event.

The only reason you are going back to previous seals is because the story has ended. The wrath of God is over at the 7th trumpet. When the 7th trumpet begins to sound the mystery of God is FINISHED. Rev 13 and 14 are back in the seals because the story is over and now you get more details of the same story. That's why there is a coming of Jesus at the 6th seal, and then the wrath of God begins. And there is a coming of Jesus in Rev 14 and then the wrath of God begins. It's the same story.


No Tim, the seals are the 70th week of Daniel which is about Israel. The Church is removed before the seals are opened. Here are the elders with their reward crowns in Rev 4 and here are the kings and priest of the Church in Rev 5
Rev 4
4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

Rev 5
0 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.


The seals are the 70th week of Daneil as God turns His attention to His Chosen after the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. At the 7th seal the wrath of God begins. At the 7th trumpet the wrath of God ends. The dead are judged and rewards are given. Then the story put you back in the seals in Rev 13 and 14. And then the wrath of God begins in Rev 15. And then Gods wrath ends.

The wrath of God is over in Rev 11, when the 7th trumpet sounds. Here is what happens at the end.

Rev 11
19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

The exact same thing happens at the end of Rev 16. You are looking at the same story. The wrath of God is over at the 7th vial. There are lightnings and voices and thunder, an earthquake and great hail.

Rev 16
18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

No, no, no! John does not go back after the 7th Trumpet in time to before the Rapture and the glorification of the church. Revelation is not about time loops or parallel universes. Amil think each parallel starts at the Cross and ends at the Second Coming. There is neither literally nor figuratively any common sense reasoning for that human opinion.

Revelation 13, 15, 16, 17, 18, and 19 deal only with Satan's 42 months. Now explain how Satan's 42 months come before the 5th Seal. Why does Satan have full control, there is utter desolation, all the church is beheaded, before Jesus and the angels are here for the final harvest? Who is left after Satan's 42 months to harvest? Satan gets all of humanity and nothing would be left for Jesus and the angels. At Armageddon all are dead. Then you want the rapture and Second Coming to happen?

Normally one would accept the first 4 seals are bad, and then the Second Coming. All you are doing is explaining away a pre-trib rapture, and making every thing pre second coming, by suggesting some time warp writing by John that states we all go back after the 7th Trumpet in time to the 1 Seal. Sorry but after the 7th Seal, there is no going back to the 1st Seal, not even literarily. The 7th Trumpet is interrupted by Satan's 42 months, not the first 4 Seals.

 

[dad]

From the first day he is revealed to the world as the false god, the 42 month clock is ticking. That is when tribulation against Christians begins and it doesn't stop until Christ returns.

That is not what the bible says. It starts the clock when the abomination of desolation is set up.

Daniel 9:27
He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.' In the middle of the ‘seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.

So the man exists before he sets up the abomination. The false prophet also lives. The revealing is in the middle of that seven years, so nothing is shortened at all, not by a day. Just because the second half of the seven years is when the punk is revealed does not mean there is no seven years! The seven year clock starts ticking once the seven years start! The second half of course only starts midway through that seven years. So nothing is shortened in the prophetic years.

 

[ewq1938]

That is not what the bible says. It starts the clock when the abomination of desolation is set up.

Same thing.

 

[Timtofly]

Rev 13 or any other chapter does not support erasing the last seven years of history given in prophesy to Daniel. The 42 months is in the midst of the week. It did not REPLACE the week!

So 10.5 years? When exactly is the end?

 

[dad]

Same thing.

No. For the seven years or the last part of that seven years to be reduced in time would mean there was not seven years after all. There is. The full 3 1/2 years of Tribulation that starts in the middle is exactly as long as prophesied and not reduced. Period.

 

[dad]

So 10.5 years? When exactly is the end?

No idea how your math works. sorry. When God says seven years, that is exactly what it is.

 

[ewq1938]

No idea how your math works. sorry. When God says seven years, that is exactly what it is.

God also said that time would be shortened.

 

[Timtofly]

No idea how your math works. sorry. When God says seven years, that is exactly what it is.

But you added 3.5 years into the middle of those 7 years and then declared none of it could be shortened.

If there is not an added 3.5 years, then where in Revelation is there a 7 year period at all? Revelation 13 declares only 42 months. Revelation 13 interrupts the 7th Trumpet. Revelation 13 is not the intended event of the 7th Trumpet. How can all the kingdoms belong to Jesus at the 7th Trumpet, and then, boom, Satan is given 42 months?

What is the 7 years for? The Seals, Trumpets, Thunders? Do they include 42 months given to Satan. If Satan gets the last 42 months, who was in charge the first 42 months?

If Satan has 7 years, why did John not state that, but only gave 42 months and after the 7th Trumpet already sounded?

You claim 7 years as being solid and unmoveble. Then 42 more months come along. Are they not in addition to?

 

[dad]

God also said that time would be shortened.

Did you think that meant that He did not know all this when He gave the years and months? The time shortened was time that could have been outside the prophesy. In other words, unless mankind was stopped they would kill themselves. So God tells us in prophesy that there is an end to man's time, and gives us the exact years. Jesus also pointed out that whatever days man had would need to be cut short to keep us alive at all. The prophesies take that into account.

 

[dad]

But you added 3.5 years into the middle of those 7 years and then declared none of it could be shortened.

I added nothing. The seven years are the time allotted. The mid point till the end is the 31/2 years. Nothing in the prophesy is changed or shortened or added to. There is an exact appointed time.

If there is not an added 3.5 years, then where in Revelation is there a 7 year period at all?

The seven years are the last seven years of man's rule on earth. Also the time of Jacob's trouble, the Tribulation and some other names are used for this time.

Revelation 13 declares only 42 months.

That is FROM the time the covenant is broken and the abomination set up in the middle of the seven years.

Revelation 13 interrupts the 7th Trumpet.

No. Rev 13 spans the time when the witnesses are doing their thing here. That ends with the last trumpet, so naturally that is in the chapter also.

Revelation 13 is not the intended event of the 7th Trumpet. How can all the kingdoms belong to Jesus at the 7th Trumpet, and then, boom, Satan is given 42 months?

The kingdoms only become God's after the seven years. That corresponds to about the time the witnesses finish their testimony as well.

What is the 7 years for? The Seals, Trumpets, Thunders?

Yes

Do they include 42 months given to Satan.

Yes. The last half of the seven years.

If Satan gets the last 42 months, who was in charge the first 42 months?

Well I assume the false prophet and AntiChrist were for the most part, or at least to some degree. But something changes the moment that evil leader claims to be God and blasphemes the holy place. I have heard some preachers say that is when the guy gets 100% possessed by Satan. That makes sense to me. Maybe a bit like Judas. The guy was around for 3 years, and tried to accuse and steal etc. He was influenced by Satan a lot, and apparently gave in to the devil a lot. Example, rather than show love to the woman pouring the ointment on Jesus' feet, he accused her of great waste. Etc. Then, at that last supper, we are told 'Satan entered IN to him' That marked a sudden change in him.

If Satan has 7 years, why did John not state that, but only gave 42 months and after the 7th Trumpet already sounded?

I do not really consider Satan has anything, except what God allows for a little time. The last seven years of history given to Daniel was about the Jews and Israel and their future for the most part. So that last seven years (after the Rapture probably) is largely about God finishing up things with Israel! It is like their history almost paused when they rejected Jesus. It starts up again for that last seven years! So the focus is not on how the whole world is ruled by Satan or whatever. WE do get that also, and are told the AC will rule the world. Exactly how long I don't think we know. But it seems that that last seven years will be the time when the beast rapidly rises to power, and eventually absolute power in the world.

You claim 7 years as being solid and unmoveble.

Correct. Those years were given to the Jewish people (Dan 9:24)

Then 42 more months come along. Are they not in addition to?

No. That is simply the last part or half of that seven years that was given.

 

[ewq1938]

Did you think that meant that He did not know all this when He gave the years and months? The time shortened was time that could have been outside the prophesy.

Daniel made the prophecy LONG before Christ announced that the Great Tribulation would be shortened. God can change prophecy and has more than once. There's several things Daniel saw that won't be happening because of changes.

In Daniel the AC overthrows 3 kings/horns. In Revelation this does not happen.

This assumes that the 4th beast In Daniel 7 is the same beast of Rev 13:1 and are the last ten horned beast of this age before the Rev 19 war of Armageddon. I know some claim the beasts are two different beasts existing at two different times.

Dan 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
Dan_7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

Dan_7:20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.

Dan 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

Yet when we look at Revelation we do not find any of the kings/horns being "plucked up":

Rev 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

All ten horns remain as kings with kingdoms the entire "hour" of the GT. The only time any of them fall or are subdued is when the entire beast with all ten horns and 7 heads is defeated by Christ at Armageddon.

In addition:

Rev 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

Again, all ten kings remain fully intact and even all together attack Babylon which happens at the end or just after the end of the great tribulation. Again this shows none of the ten horns/kings are subdued as we find in Daniel.


Daniel: antichrist and 10 kings/horns turns into antichrist and 7 kings/horns because three are plucked up.

 

[dad]

Daniel made the prophecy LONG before Christ announced that the Great Tribulation would be shortened. God can change prophecy and has more than once. There's several things Daniel saw that won't be happening because of changes.

The prophesy Jesus was referred to when Jesus spoke of the abomination of desolation. So we know that is bang on.Nowhere did Jesus say THAT time was shortened. The prophesy includes God knowing what the days were going to be shortened to.

In Daniel the AC overthrows 3 kings/horns. In Revelation this does not happen.

Says who? There are ten kings that are under the beast. What makes you think 3 kingdoms were not overthrown by the AC??

This assumes that the 4th beast In Daniel 7 is the same beast of Rev 13:1 and are the last ten horned beast of this age before the Rev 19 war of Armageddon. I know some claim the beasts are two different beasts existing at two different times.

That is an indefensible position.

Dan 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
Dan_7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

Dan_7:20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.

Dan 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

Yet when we look at Revelation we do not find any of the kings/horns being "plucked up":

Rev 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

Yes and that short time would be AFTER the AC overthrew 3 kings. The ones that the AC overthrows do not get to receive any power with the beast! So I would think that either the evil leader of the end has some sort of coup in 3 countries and takes over, or that there were originally more kingdoms than the ten that end up getting power with the AC.

All ten horns remain as kings with kingdoms the entire "hour" of the GT. The only time any of them fall or are subdued is when the entire beast with all ten horns and 7 heads is defeated by Christ at Armageddon.

No, the meaning is that they only rule a short time. The Great tribulation is a short time. It does not mean they get to rule for 60 minutes!

In addition:

Rev 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

Again, all ten kings remain fully intact and even all together attack Babylon which happens at the end or just after the end of the great tribulation. Again this shows none of the ten horns/kings are subdued as we find in Daniel.

Now here we may be looking at two things. The Babylon system in the end is destroyed by Jesus. If a major power before this time (such as the USA that corrupted the world with her influences) were nuked or burned with fire by some nations was a major representation of Babylon, then it could get destroyed at the start of the seven years or whatever, rather than at the very end!

Daniel: antichrist and 10 kings/horns turns into antichrist and 7 kings/horns because three are plucked up.

What does plucked up mean? Overthrown?

 

[ewq1938]

Yes and that short time would be AFTER the AC overthrew 3 kings.

The antichrist does not do that. All ten kings are intact all the way until the ten horned beast is destroyed.

 

[dad]

The antichrist does not do that. All ten kings are intact all the way until the ten horned beast is destroyed.

We do not know all that the AC does. Does the AC overthrow 3 powers and later work with ten others? Do the countries that get overthrown still exist and simply get new regimes which then work with the world government? You are not qualified to say the final leader somewhere along the line does not dispose of 3 powers.