Timing of Eze 37 and 38 pre Trib?

[ewq1938]

We do not know all that the AC does. Does the AC overthrow 3 powers and later work with ten? Does the countries that get overthrown still exist and simply get new regimes? You are not qualified to say the final leader somewhere along the line does not dispose of 3 powers.

It's not found in John's vision. Anyone is qualified to state that fact. John did not see the antichrist overthrow 3 horns.

Another difference between what Daniel and John saw is the beast is killed before he is given to flame while the beast in Revelation 19 goes into the fire alive.



Dan 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

1. The beast was slain.
2. His body destroyed.
3. Dead and destroyed body given to flame.


That's not what John saw:

Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

1. Beast is alive.
2. Body is not destroyed.
3. Cast into the lake of fire alive.

 

[dad]

It's not found in John's vision. Anyone is qualified to state that fact. John did not see the antichrist overthrow 3 horns.

We already know he overthrows 3 kings from Daniel. Not everything needs to be restated.

Another difference between what Daniel and John saw is the beast is killed before he is given to flame while the beast in Revelation 19 goes into the fire alive

Dan 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

1. The beast was slain.
2. His body destroyed.
3. Dead and destroyed body given to flame..

The evil leader is killed and his body is destroyed as he is cast alive into the lake of fire.

That's not what John saw:

Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

1. Beast is alive.
2. Body is not destroyed.
3. Cast into the lake of fire alive.

Their bodies are destroyed as they are cast alive into the lake of fire. Not sure why you strive to try and find contradictions in God's word.

 

[ewq1938]

We already know he overthrows 3 kings from Daniel.

Try quoting that from Revelation.

The evil leader is killed and his body is destroyed as he is cast alive into the lake of fire.

So both dead and destroyed AND alive when cast into fire? Makes perfect sense!

Their bodies are destroyed as they are cast alive into the lake of fire. Not sure why you strive to try and find contradictions in God's word.

Not contradictions, differences. Many things Daniel saw will not happen according to Revelation. I think the change of covenants is responsible for the differences in prophecy. I believe God can and does change OT prophecy with updated and new prophecies in the NT.

 

[dad]

Try quoting that from Revelation.

Why would we try to quote Matthew or Hosea or Genesis in another book? There are additional clues in prophesy found in different books. Daniel and Revelation speak of the final leader and we get details in both books. For example some of the wars in the end we find in Daniel. If this is not repeated in Revelation that does not mean there are no wars.

So both dead and destroyed AND alive when cast into fire? Makes perfect sense!

The lake of fire need not 'make sense' to you. I have never seen a body cast in there, have you?
Daniel 7:11
Then I continued to watch because of the boastful words the horn was speaking. I kept looking until the beast was slain and its body destroyed and thrown into the blazing fire.
So Jesus destroys the false prophet and beast, and they are still alive as they enter the lake of fire. So it seems that the body is not destroyed enough to be quite dead yet when it is tossed into the lake. I see nothing to doubt about here. We should also remember that people in the lake of fire are alive even though their earthly bodies died a long time ago. Revelation 20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
So though the bodies were destroyed long ago, the beast and false prophet are very much alive here 1000 years later in the lake.

Not contradictions, differences

I don't believe you. The differences are internal, in your head and heart.

Many things Daniel saw will not happen according to Revelation.

ALL things Daniel saw regarding the end will happen.

I think the change of covenants is responsible for the differences in prophecy.

If you don't believe prophesy why dance around?

I believe God can and does change OT prophecy with updated and new prophecies in the NT.

I see no prophesy that is false or as you call it 'updated' in the New Testament or Old Testament.

 

[ewq1938]

Why would we try to quote Matthew or Hosea or Genesis in another book?

The fact remains that in Revelation the antichrist does not overthrow any of the horns, no plucking up etc. The antichrist is not an 11th horn either, but is a separate beast with two of his own horns. Daniel saw something completely different as well as seeing the ten horned beast get killed before being burned while John saw the ten horned beast cast into fire while still alive. Ignore the differences if you can't handle them.

 

[dad]

The fact remains that in Revelation the antichrist does not overthrow any of the horns, no plucking up etc.

No. Power is given to him over all kindreds actually. Revelation is not where we get details of how.

Revelation 13:4
And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

So he is already seen here as being in power and unstoppable. If people are marvelling at the guy as a great warrior and saying basically no one can beat this guy, that tells us the beast won a war or some wars. You are in no position to claim that those wars he fought did not involve subduing three powers!

The antichrist is not an 11th horn either, but is a separate beast with two of his own horns.

That is a false portrayal.

7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

So he comes from one of the kingdoms.

Daniel saw something completely different as well as seeing the ten horned beast get killed before being burned

I already answered that.

while John saw the ten horned beast cast into fire while still alive. Ignore the differences if you can't handle them.

Maybe that is how he is killed, by being cast into the lake of fire. His body at least, since as was pointed out he is still alive later.

The beast and false prophet were taken. Then they are killed and their bodies destroyed (as) they are on their way into the lake. What you failed to do was try to view each prophesy as true and real. Instead you strained to imagine contradictions. Do you think that is a good way to have God show you anything?

 

[ewq1938]

Maybe that is how he is killed, by being cast into the lake of fire.

In Revelation 19 that is how the beast dies but not in Daniel where the beast is killed before being burned by fire.

Being alive and then burned is opposite of being killed and then burned.

 

[dad]

In Revelation 19 that is how the beast dies but not in Daniel where the beast is killed before being burned by fire.

Being alive and then burned is opposite of being killed and then burned.

No. You have no idea what being tossed into a lake of fire is like. That would destroy your body. It would also kill you. Bing and a bam and a boom. God was right all along.

 

[ewq1938]

No. You have no idea what being tossed into a lake of fire is like. That would destroy your body. It would also kill you. Bing and a bam and a boom. God was right all along.

You still aren't getting it.

Revelation 19, ten horned beast is alive when cast into the fire and dies in the fire.
Daniel the ten horned beast is killed before the fire happens. That beast is dead before the fire.

The two accounts do not match and cannot be harmonized.

 

[dad]

You still aren't getting it.

Revelation 19, ten horned beast is alive when cast into the fire and dies in the fire.
Daniel the ten horned beast is killed before the fire happens. That beast is dead before the fire.

The two accounts do not match and cannot be harmonized.

Maybe we could say he was killed by the lake of fire or on the way to it? By the time he reaches the lake his body is dead. That means he was taken alive and cast in alive, but then his body was destroyed and he was killed as he went to the lake.

 

[ewq1938]

Maybe we could say he was killed by the lake of fire or on the way to it? By the time he reaches the lake his body is dead. That means he was taken alive and cast in alive, but then his body was destroyed and he was killed as he went to the lake.

No because in Daniel the beast is dead before the fire happens. The beast is not killed by fire in Daniel, but the beast is killed by fire in Revelation.

 

[dad]

No because in Daniel the beast is dead before the fire happens. The beast is not killed by fire in Daniel, but the beast is killed by fire in Revelation.

Maybe not dead before the fire happens but on the way to it. We also might look into when Dan 7 is talking about. Would that be the great white throne judgment?

9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

If so, that is after the 1000 years.

As mentioned, we do not know what it would be like getting cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 19:20
And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

If they were alive when cast, how long would they live on the way to that lake of fire? There is no lake of fire on earth, and we have no idea where it is. So, if God casts them in, and they were to live through it, then they would arrive alive. If they were to be killed entering that lake (their bodies) then they would arrive and still exist there anyhow. So which is it? Do they get cast in and stay alive till the 1000 years is over? Or does their bodies get destroyed on the way to the lake, killing them? In EITHER case it harmonizes.

 

[ewq1938]

In EITHER case it harmonizes.

No, there is no harmony. Many details are different between Daniel and Revelation.

3 beasts live past the 4th beasts destruction. This doesn't happen in Revelation.

3 horns are not removed from the 7 headed beast in Revelation.

The beast is killed before being given to flame in Daniel but in Revelation 19 the beast is alive when cast into the lake of fire.

In Daniel the little horn is not a second beast but is part of the 4th beast. In Revelation there isn't just one beast. There are two. The False Prophet is not one of the heads or horns of the first beast but is his own separate and different beast with it's own two horns.


These are the only differences I know of so far.

Daniel and Revelation are not the same books and same events. Similar imagery is used but the details are often opposite.

 

[dad]

No, there is no harmony. Many details are different between Daniel and Revelation.

3 beasts live past the 4th beasts destruction. This doesn't happen in Revelation.

What verse says that?

If you are talking about Dan 7:8 it says this

I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.


So it was talking about Rome just before this. (the fourth beast). It is from the remains of the Roman empire, the revived empire in the end, that the beast lives. There are nations today that could be overthrown to make way for a world power. Since it is the final leader of earth that overthrows them, it is correct to say that he overthrows horns or powers that came from them.
It seems to be saying that out of some of the nations from that fourth beast (Roman Empire) - there arose that evil final king, the AntiChrist, who overthrows 3 nations to solidify power. There is nothing in Revelation that opposes this whatsoever. We are told he will have dominion over all peoples. How is it that when Daniel clues us in somewhat on his rise to power, and how he subdues three nations, you claim that is some sort of contradiction with Revelation??? That makes no sense. Of course any world leader must eliminate nations that will not fall in line.

3 horns are not removed from the 7 headed beast in Revelation.

The beast comes from that seventh head, and is considered the eighth, but yet is of the seven. So if there are ten horns in that last kingdom (the revived Roman empire) and the AntiChrist comes along and knocks out three of the kings, that seems fine to me. But overthrowing does not seem to mean destroying them completely. Probably he sets up new regimes in them, so that there are still ten kings! In this case, yes, the three kings ARE overthrown in that seventh head in Revelation. But there are still ten kings after that, just with regimes that he can control.

The beast is killed before being given to flame in Daniel but in Revelation 19 the beast is alive when cast into the lake of fire.

Daniel speaks of the great white throne judgment it seems, and that is after the 1000 years. If the beast is taken then and killed
then it fits both.

In Daniel the little horn is not a second beast but is part of the 4th beast. In Revelation there isn't just one beast. There are two.

We get additional details in Revelation. The false prophet's job is to get the world to worship the beast and he is from that fourth beast (revived Roman empire)

The False Prophet is not one of the heads or horns of the first beast but is his own separate and different beast with it's own two horns.

He has horns to falsely appear as a lamb. That has nothing to do with the ten kings etc.

 

[Timtofly]

I added nothing. The seven years are the time allotted. The mid point till the end is the 31/2 years. Nothing in the prophesy is changed or shortened or added to. There is an exact appointed time.
The seven years are the last seven years of man's rule on earth. Also the time of Jacob's trouble, the Tribulation and some other names are used for this time.
That is FROM the time the covenant is broken and the abomination set up in the middle of the seven years.

No. Rev 13 spans the time when the witnesses are doing their thing here. That ends with the last trumpet, so naturally that is in the chapter also.
The kingdoms only become God's after the seven years. That corresponds to about the time the witnesses finish their testimony as well.
Yes

Yes. The last half of the seven years.


Well I assume the false prophet and AntiChrist were for the most part, or at least to some degree. But something changes the moment that evil leader claims to be God and blasphemes the holy place. I have heard some preachers say that is when the guy gets 100% possessed by Satan. That makes sense to me. Maybe a bit like Judas. The guy was around for 3 years, and tried to accuse and steal etc. He was influenced by Satan a lot, and apparently gave in to the devil a lot. Example, rather than show love to the woman pouring the ointment on Jesus' feet, he accused her of great waste. Etc. Then, at that last supper, we are told 'Satan entered IN to him' That marked a sudden change in him.
I do not really consider Satan has anything, except what God allows for a little time. The last seven years of history given to Daniel was about the Jews and Israel and their future for the most part. So that last seven years (after the Rapture probably) is largely about God finishing up things with Israel! It is like their history almost paused when they rejected Jesus. It starts up again for that last seven years! So the focus is not on how the whole world is ruled by Satan or whatever. WE do get that also, and are told the AC will rule the world. Exactly how long I don't think we know. But it seems that that last seven years will be the time when the beast rapidly rises to power, and eventually absolute power in the world.
Correct. Those years were given to the Jewish people (Dan 9:24)
No. That is simply the last part or half of that seven years that was given.

Satan is not given 7 years, neither is the FP. They only have the last 42 months to do anything. There is no 7 year AC control mentioned once in Revelation.

Jesus as Prince is in control after the Second Coming leading up to those 42 months. It is called the final harvest in Matthew 13. The time is shortened, because the longer God holds back the Second Coming, the closer it is to those 42 months given to Satan in Revelation 13. Which is a point in time after the 7th Trumpet already started to sound. Even if you claim the Second Coming is the 7th Trumpet it is still prior to those 42 months.

Satan cannot have control over a throne that has not been set up yet. The throne is set up before handed over to Satan for 42 months. Satan is not handed a throne set up by Satan 3.5 years earlier. How does that make sense?

 

[dad]

Satan is not given 7 years, neither is the FP. They only have the last 42 months to do anything. There is no 7 year AC control mentioned once in Revelation.

Not sure I mentioned or care about how much time Satan will have. The issue is that there are seven years given in prophesy and that is the last years or man's rule on earth. Both the false prophet and beast are alive, obviously in that seven years and well before it. We are not told when the mark of his comes in either, that could and probably is before the last 3 1/2 years. Same thing with some of the wars, and etc. The whole seven years of indignation (I hear that is the same word as wrath in Hebrew) is a horrible time of wrath. When does the first trumpets sound? I don't think we know. When does the mark come in, I don't think we know. When does the killing of believers start? I don't think we know where in the seven years these things and a lot more happen. When does Satan get cast to earth with his hordes? When does the bottomless pit open? etc etc. 42 months is just the worst part of that time.

Jesus as Prince is in control after the Second Coming leading up to those 42 months.

Right, after the Tribulation Jesus (and us His saints) return to earth.

It is called the final harvest in Matthew 13. The time is shortened, because the longer God holds back the Second Coming, the closer it is to those 42 months given to Satan in Revelation 13.

Shortened means cut short. No days or years are cut at all. Those days that may have included more time if the seven years was not needed to limit things are all that was cut short! NOT the seven years. (or the last half of those seven years)

Which is a point in time after the 7th Trumpet already started to sound. Even if you claim the Second Coming is the 7th Trumpet it is still prior to those 42 months.

The second coming of Jesus to this earth is certainly after the Great Tribulation. There is no other possibility whatsoever.

Satan cannot have control over a throne that has not been set up yet.

So tell me when that last world government is set up exactly? Did you think it was the day the AntiChrist defiles the holy place in Israel!?

The throne is set up before handed over to Satan for 42 months. Satan is not handed a throne set up by Satan 3.5 years earlier. How does that make sense?

The mark of the beast and all the evil aspects of the final world government are NOT of God, obviously. He is not setting up some child sacrificing, created gender disrespecting, vile dictatorship! He allows it to happen to end things here.

 

[Keraz]

tell me when that last world government is set up exactly?

It seems to me that many people don’t see how the Bible prophesies tie together to make a whole coherent picture.

There is no doubt that Daniel and Revelation have many parallel prophesies, that can also be seen; giving more details, in the other Bible books.

Regarding a One World Government: This concept has been around for a long time and many overt and covert movements have promoted it. That such a political entity will happen, led by a charismatic man known to us as the Anti-Christ, is quite clearly prophesied in Daniel 7:23-24 and described in Daniel 11:21-45, paralleled in Revelation 17:12-13 and described in Revelation 13:1-18.

The problem the promoters of the OWG have, is the refusal of the nations to relinquish their sovereignty. We all prefer to do our own thing and with the current world situation, this works OK. There are hiccups with nations that mismanage their economies, but it is against the interests of the IMF and the ‘gnomes of Zurich’ to allow a nation to go bankrupt.

So, in order to force the nations to agree to a OWG; initially 10 regions, governed by 10 Presidents*, they know there has to be some kind of dramatic event to start this process. That planned event is to be a nuke attack in the Middle East. A mini WW3, that will shake up the world and have the beneficial effect of solving the Palestinian/ Israel conflict - they would both be gone!

Iran will proceed with their avowed plans to wipe Israel off the map and the recent developments in Syria, Gaza and Israel, is an indication of how close we are to this attack. They know such an attack will result in their own destruction, but they will do it, as their Satanic religion pushes them into it. Ezekiel 35:6, Proverbs 8:32

However, it won’t be retaliation by Israel or America that will thwart this secret attack by Iran and her allies onto Israel, the Lord will take action and He will destroy them all, Psalms 11:4-6, Psalms 83, 2 Peter 3:7, virtually depopulating the entire Middle East region. Ezekiel 7:14, Ezekiel 30:2-5, Jeremiah 10:18, Jeremiah 49:35, Isaiah 34:5, Zephaniah 1:14-18 & 2:4-5 and many other prophesies about the terrible Day of the Lord’s fiery wrath.

The rest of the world will mostly survive and as things will be then, agreement on a OWG will be easy. Not quite as planned, but a similar result!

What happens to all the true believers in the Lord? Raptured to heaven? Nowhere does the Bible say that will happen at any time. 1 Peter 3:12 says it clearly; it will be the fiery test of our faith and we must stand firm, believing in His protection.

Then: look up, for our redemption is near. Luke 21:25-28 Jesus will Return soon, just a few years after all this happens.
*Google - 10 world regions.

 

[dad]

It seems to me that many people don’t see how the Bible prophesies tie together to make a whole coherent picture.

There is no doubt that Daniel and Revelation have many parallel prophesies, that can also be seen; giving more details, in the other Bible books.

Regarding a One World Government: This concept has been around for a long time and many overt and covert movements have promoted it. That such a political entity will happen, led by a charismatic man known to us as the Anti-Christ, is quite clearly prophesied in Daniel 7:23-24 and described in Daniel 11:21-45, paralleled in Revelation 17:12-13 and described in Revelation 13:1-18.

The problem the promoters of the OWG have, is the refusal of the nations to relinquish their sovereignty.

After real emergencies, say a limited nuclear war, a severe food shortage, a genuine pandemic that kills say hundreds of millions of people or etc I suspect nations would be willing to cooperate. Dan mentions three kings that get overthrown, maybe they were holdouts!?

We all prefer to do our own thing and with the current world situation, this works OK. There are hiccups with nations that mismanage their economies, but it is against the interests of the IMF and the ‘gnomes of Zurich’ to allow a nation to go bankrupt.

Sometimes such a big thing happens that it does not much matter what folks in Zurich want or not.

So, in order to force the nations to agree to a OWG; initially 10 regions, governed by 10 Presidents*, they know there has to be some kind of dramatic event to start this process. That planned event is to be a nuke attack in the Middle East. A mini WW3, that will shake up the world and have the beneficial effect of solving the Palestinian/ Israel conflict - they would both be gone!

Speculation. One problem with that scenario is that I doubt God allows Israel to be wiped out by nukes. He rules soon from there.

Iran will proceed with their avowed plans to wipe Israel off the map and the recent developments in Syria, Gaza and Israel, is an indication of how close we are to this attack. They know such an attack will result in their own destruction, but they will do it, as their Satanic religion pushes them into it. Ezekiel 35:6, Proverbs 8:32

If they are among the nations that come from the north in the end against Israel, then God wipes them out on their way. They would amount to little more than, as the commies used to say 'useful idiots'

However, it won’t be retaliation by Israel or America that will thwart this secret attack by Iran and her allies onto Israel, the Lord will take action and He will destroy them all, Psalms 11:4-6, Psalms 83, 2 Peter 3:7, virtually depopulating the entire Middle East region. Ezekiel 7:14, Ezekiel 30:2-5, Jeremiah 10:18, Jeremiah 49:35, Isaiah 34:5, Zephaniah 1:14-18 & 2:4-5 and many other prophesies about the terrible Day of the Lord’s fiery wrath.

I know.

The rest of the world will mostly survive and as things will be then, agreement on a OWG will be easy. Not quite as planned, but a similar result!

After such a demo of heaven power, I think the world would be ready for changes. But ready or not here it comes! My opinion is that the Rapture likely happens about that time also, clearing the way for the last seven years to happen.

What happens to all the true believers in the Lord? Raptured to heaven? Nowhere does the Bible say that will happen at any time. 1 Peter 3:12 says it clearly; it will be the fiery test of our faith and we must stand firm, believing in His protection.

We can disagree on that.

 

[ewq1938]

What verse says that?

Dan 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
Dan 7:12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

Those beasts are the ones found here:

Dan 7:4 The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.
Dan 7:5 And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.
Dan 7:6 After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.

Those three beasts remain alive after the 4th beast is killed. That doesn't match anything in Revelation. Revelation only has 2 beasts and both are destroyed in Revelation 19, no other beasts exist to live on.

I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

Another thing that does not happen in any part of John's vision.

 

[Keraz]

After real emergencies, say a limited nuclear war, a severe food shortage, a genuine pandemic that kills say hundreds of millions of people or etc I suspect nations would be willing to cooperate

Believing what the Bible prophets tell us is better.

Dan mentions three kings that get overthrown, maybe they were holdouts!?

Those 10 Governors, will all confer their leadership onto one powerful man. Revelation 17:12-13

Sometimes such a big thing happens that it does not much matter what folks in Zurich want or not.

Just as I have said.

Speculation. One problem with that scenario is that I doubt God allows Israel to be wiped out by nukes. He rules soon from there.

I never speculated that Israel would be nuked. I strongly disagree with that idea. The Lord will destroy His enemies in the Middle East. Amos 1, Ezekiel 30:1-5, Zephaniah 1:14-18, +