Timing of Eze 37 and 38 pre Trib?
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God meant that He would bring Gog to Israel to punish His people. Not to play around in fields and dies somewhere nearby. Do you believe that those nations will one day attack Israel as prophesy says or not? It is only a question of belief.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
It is you who changes God's Word to make it fit your eschatology. You have yet to give a verse where they actually fight against Israeli citizens. Since a war has been going on for over 10 years on the mountains of Israel, and all those nations mentioned have been fighting and dying in that war, the only thing left is the Second Coming where Jesus prevents armies from attacking Jerusalem itself.
Unless you can prove Jerusalem keeps getting occupied and destroyed over and over, I am not seeing your point.
ScottA
Well-Known Member
Ezekiel 38:17
Thus saith the Lord God ; Art thou he of whom I have spoken in old time by my servants the prophets of Israel, which prophesied in those days many years that I would bring thee against them?
Ezekiel 38:18
And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord God , that my fury shall come up in my face.
So God is not bringing the nations led by Gog to some suburb in Syria that was maybe supposed to be part of the original promised lands. He is bringing the armies to THEM, as prophesied.
In case there is the slightest doubt that this invasion in the end times is against people, here is God clarifying this.
Ezekiel 38:16
And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.
The OP is not about some 'over and over' thing. It is about the specific prophesy that you do not believe is future, therefore should not be addressing in this thread. The poster that discussed the possibility that there were actually 2 separate attacks referred to was respecting the prophesy as real and future. He had the right to try to understand in detail what the prophesy was saying. You cannot do any such thing since you disrespected the OP, and are not even in the ballpark to be able to discuss it.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
One minute Eze 38 and 39 are already here and happened. The next you say 'of course it's future'. Which is it?
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
No battle against Israel and it's people has been going on in the way the prophesy says. Gog did not lead anyone anywhere before this. No one attacked His people in Israel. You cannot put the prophesy in the present or past.
Ronald D Milam
Active Member
Looks like you only got the very ones you stated you didn't want to discuss this with, per se. The truth is most of them are all over the place on prophecy, you destroyed their thesis when they understood this never happened in history, then you got some of them tongue tied, it was kind of amusing I must admit.
The Truth is the Psalm 83 war and the Gog & Magog war goes hand in hand. The Psalm 83 wars or skirmishes with no winner lasted from 1948 until 2010ish, it was all of Israel's immediate neighbors and as we saw, there was 15-20 wars over that time or continual warfare. Then there are two things that happened to bring forth a quasi peace between Israel and her mostly immediate neighbors she had been fighting with for nigh 70 years.
Iran is going nuclear and she is led by radicals. Thus Saudi Arabia, UAE, Egypt, Jordan etc. all understood instead of trying to destroy Israel, they now needed to throw in with her in order to form a coalition against the rising power of Iran and her radicals. This however was only drven home and accomplished because there was not a true Dem nor Republican elected in 2016, a "Wildcard" in Trump was elected who saw things in a different light or they would have never of gotten the Abraham Accord, so Trump got through what God had him elected for, it had to happen, no Israel hating liberal would have ever of allowed that, nor would any neo war faction RINO. So, we are now at the stage where "THE HOOK GOES IN" We have a very weak and feckless leader in Biden, one both China and Putin probably has 100 percent proof that he's not only a crook but compromised, he has sold us out for dollars and they no doubt have the receipts.
So, the hook is set, Putin understands no one will do anything about Ukraine, he and Xi already understood the feckless types would try to institute sanctions, that would be their cue to destroy the Petro Dollar the USA has taken advantage of for over 50 years. They have others who secretly despise the USA and understand they can bring the USA to its knees through their (our) 30 trillion in Debt which is really 60-90 trillion in debt.
After this is successful, and the USA goes under (very soon to happen, mark my words) Putin will then move on Israel because the USA's collapse will cause a world wide economic collapse, and Putin will desire to take over Israel's oil and gas reserves because he's feeling the pain, Gog invades Israel for "Plunder" says Ezekiel. This all happens either just before the Rapture or just after, but it is not the Anti-Christ who comes forth later, these nations led by Gog get DEFEATED by God, the Anti-Christ will conquer Israel at the 1260 day mark of the 70th week (Middle of the week). This along with the Asteroid that wipes out a 1/3 of the world. makes the path straight for the Anti-Christ, with no Russia, Turkish or Iranian Armies the Anti-Christ will have an easy time conquering Israel and the whole Mediterranean Sea Region after all of these events, thus they are all tied together, as is the Psalm 83 wars which have come and gone.
Davy
Well-Known Member
Then you only show your Biblical illiteracy. You might want to do your own homework in study of Old Testament history per God's written Word instead of heeding men's ignorant traditions.
God split old Israel after Solomon's days into two separate kingdoms, also called 'houses'. The "house of Israel" ONLY meant the ten northern tribes of Israel. God scattered them first, never to return to the holy land to this day. They became known to the world as the 'lost ten tribes'.
The other kingdom, in the south, became known as the "house of Judah", and was at Jerusalem-Judea, and with one of the house of David still as king (Rehoboam, Solomon's son). The "house of Judah" was made up of 3 tribes, Judah, Benjamin, and Levi, and they became those known as 'JEWS'. The ten northern tribes were not know as Jews. The title of Jew originates from the tribe of Judah (per the Jewish historian Josephus who lived in 100 A.D.). This is why Apostle Paul said he was a Jew, yet born of the tribe of Benjamin. It's because all those living in the southern kingdom of Judah took the title of Jew, including foreigners. Those Jews remained in the land, but were later removed to their captivity to Babylon for 70 years, with only a small remnant of them returning to Jerusalem. The rest of the Jews of the southern kingdom were later scattered like the ten tribes were.
The ten tribes were scattered further, leaving their captivity in Assyria and the lands of the Medes. They trekked westward, around the Black Sea, and migrated in stages into Asia Minor and Europe. They were known as Cimmerians and Scythians. They made up the beginning remnants of the western Christian nations, fulfilling the Genesis 48 prophecy that Ephraim's seed would become "a multitude of nations". This is why The Gospel was first accepted on national scales in Europe, Great Britain being the first to do so. The prophecy God gave through Hosea reveals God's Plan for the ten tribes, even for when Jesus returns.
OK, so you agree that the battle with Gog is a different battle that the battle of Armageddon. You also place it as likely very close to the Rapture, before of after. Seems like a reasonable view. Another poster suggested that there were 2 distinct battles referred to in Eze 38, 39 separated by about 7 years.
As for Putin, it does seem something strange has gotten into him lately. I agree that either he or his successor will be Gog who leads the nations to attack Israel. I also agree it does seem like that will be right at/near the time of the Rapture.
Actually the land of end time prophesy is clearly Jerusalem and Israel. Not Alaska. God did not lose track of anything or anyone. Neither was He wrong about choosing people from the 12 tribes of Israel in the end.
Perhaps you should tell us what cult you are with if any?
Davy
Well-Known Member
Davy
Well-Known Member
Israel Old Testament History of 1 Kings 11 forward:
God split old Israel into two separate 'kingdoms' because of Solomon allowing his many wives and concubines of foreign pagan nations to bring their idol worship into Israel.
God gave Jeroboam of the tribe of Ephraim, one of the northern ten tribes of Israel in the northern lands, to be king over Israel (meaning the ten northern tribes). Jeroboam had before been chosen as a governor over the ten northern tribes during Solomon's reign.
The son of Solomon of the house of David, Rehoboam, became king over the southern "kingdom of Judah" made up ONLY of the tribes of Judah and Benjamin.
Mind you, God chose the tribe of Judah to be the king tribe, but per 1 Kings 11, He broke up the old kingdom and gave ten tribes of Jeroboam of the tribe of Ephraim. Once all The Bible is studied, along with Bible history, it becomes obvious that the Genesis 48 prophecy that Ephraim's seed would become "a multitude of nations" is when that process began with God giving Jeroboam to be king over the ten tribes called "Israel".
ONLY the northern kingdom of ten tribes was called "Israel" after that split, or "house of Israel", or "kingdom of Israel", or "Samaria", or even "Ephraim". The southern "kingdom of Judah" was not then called Israel, but "Judah", or "house of Judah", or just "Jerusalem".
The title of JEW is what those of the southern "kingdom of Judah" began to call themselves, that name taken from the sole tribe of Judah.
King Jeroboam of the "house of Israel" feared his people would go down to Jerusalem to worship and augment the "house of Judah", so he setup two golden calf idols in false worship in two cities in the north. And he also setup common priests of the people. God had chosen the tribe of Levi only to serve as priests. To the Levites left the northern kingdom and went to Jerusalem and sided with the "house of Judah". The "kingdom of Judah" then became made up of the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi. Some small remnants of the northern ten tribes that also refused the calf idols went south and joined with Judah. But the majority of the ten northern tribes remained in the north under Jeroboam.
The two kingdoms had war against each other.
Because of the "house of Israel" doing calf idol worship, God brought the kings of Assyria upon the ten northern tribes, and removed them all captive to Assyria and the lands of the Medes, never to return. The kings of Assyria replaced them in the northern holy lands with pagan peoples from five cities of Babylon, each with their own pagan god. These would be called Samaritans. Only the "kingdom of Judah" remained in the holy land in the south at Jerusalem-Judea.
About 120 years later, because the "house of Judah" also fell away into false worship, God brought the king of Babylon (Nebuchadnezzar) upon the southern "kingdom of Judah", and removed the JEWS captive to Babylon for 70 years. Jerusalem and the temple built by Solomon were destroyed. The king line of the house of David, specifically in Jerusalem, then ended, with Zedekiah king of Judah having his son heirs executed, his eyes poked out, and taken captive in chains to Babylon, where he died. To this day that king line of the house of David has never been re-established, in Jerusalem.
After 70 years, a small remnant of the "house of Judah', JEWS, returned to Jerusalem to rebuild the city and walls, and 2nd temple. The majority of the "house of Judah" chose to stay in Babylon, because God took good care of them there. These were then later scattered through the countries like the ten tribes were. Only in the past few centuries have some of these JEWS been returning to the holy land. The ten tribes have remained scattered.
In the Book of Hosea, God said He would give the ten tribe "house of Israel" the full strength of the Baal worship they loved, and would hedge up their paths so they could not find their way back. He said then He would open a door of hope for them, bringing them into the wilderness to new lands, and there He would make a new covenant with them, and they would no longer call Him "Baali", but instead "Ishi". And there they would know Him and be His people. This was prophecy about God establishing the lost ten tribes among the Gentiles in the West and sending The Gospel of Jesus Christ to them both, and that causing the fulfillment of the "multitude of nations" prophecy about Ephraim. And then from there, by their care of The Gospel, as Christ's ambassadors, they would take The Gospel to the rest of the world. Apostle Paul quoted from Hosea about this to Gentile Roman believers in Christ, per Romans 9, DIRECTLY CONNECTING THE TEN NORTHERN TRIBES OF ISRAEL WITH THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST.
God split old Israel into two separate 'kingdoms' because of Solomon allowing his many wives and concubines of foreign pagan nations to bring their idol worship into Israel.
God gave Jeroboam of the tribe of Ephraim, one of the northern ten tribes of Israel in the northern lands, to be king over Israel (meaning the ten northern tribes). Jeroboam had before been chosen as a governor over the ten northern tribes during Solomon's reign.
The son of Solomon of the house of David, Rehoboam, became king over the southern "kingdom of Judah" made up ONLY of the tribes of Judah and Benjamin.
Mind you, God chose the tribe of Judah to be the king tribe, but per 1 Kings 11, He broke up the old kingdom and gave ten tribes of Jeroboam of the tribe of Ephraim. Once all The Bible is studied, along with Bible history, it becomes obvious that the Genesis 48 prophecy that Ephraim's seed would become "a multitude of nations" is when that process began with God giving Jeroboam to be king over the ten tribes called "Israel".
ONLY the northern kingdom of ten tribes was called "Israel" after that split, or "house of Israel", or "kingdom of Israel", or "Samaria", or even "Ephraim". The southern "kingdom of Judah" was not then called Israel, but "Judah", or "house of Judah", or just "Jerusalem".
The title of JEW is what those of the southern "kingdom of Judah" began to call themselves, that name taken from the sole tribe of Judah.
King Jeroboam of the "house of Israel" feared his people would go down to Jerusalem to worship and augment the "house of Judah", so he setup two golden calf idols in false worship in two cities in the north. And he also setup common priests of the people. God had chosen the tribe of Levi only to serve as priests. To the Levites left the northern kingdom and went to Jerusalem and sided with the "house of Judah". The "kingdom of Judah" then became made up of the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi. Some small remnants of the northern ten tribes that also refused the calf idols went south and joined with Judah. But the majority of the ten northern tribes remained in the north under Jeroboam.
The two kingdoms had war against each other.
Because of the "house of Israel" doing calf idol worship, God brought the kings of Assyria upon the ten northern tribes, and removed them all captive to Assyria and the lands of the Medes, never to return. The kings of Assyria replaced them in the northern holy lands with pagan peoples from five cities of Babylon, each with their own pagan god. These would be called Samaritans. Only the "kingdom of Judah" remained in the holy land in the south at Jerusalem-Judea.
About 120 years later, because the "house of Judah" also fell away into false worship, God brought the king of Babylon (Nebuchadnezzar) upon the southern "kingdom of Judah", and removed the JEWS captive to Babylon for 70 years. Jerusalem and the temple built by Solomon were destroyed. The king line of the house of David, specifically in Jerusalem, then ended, with Zedekiah king of Judah having his son heirs executed, his eyes poked out, and taken captive in chains to Babylon, where he died. To this day that king line of the house of David has never been re-established, in Jerusalem.
After 70 years, a small remnant of the "house of Judah', JEWS, returned to Jerusalem to rebuild the city and walls, and 2nd temple. The majority of the "house of Judah" chose to stay in Babylon, because God took good care of them there. These were then later scattered through the countries like the ten tribes were. Only in the past few centuries have some of these JEWS been returning to the holy land. The ten tribes have remained scattered.
In the Book of Hosea, God said He would give the ten tribe "house of Israel" the full strength of the Baal worship they loved, and would hedge up their paths so they could not find their way back. He said then He would open a door of hope for them, bringing them into the wilderness to new lands, and there He would make a new covenant with them, and they would no longer call Him "Baali", but instead "Ishi". And there they would know Him and be His people. This was prophecy about God establishing the lost ten tribes among the Gentiles in the West and sending The Gospel of Jesus Christ to them both, and that causing the fulfillment of the "multitude of nations" prophecy about Ephraim. And then from there, by their care of The Gospel, as Christ's ambassadors, they would take The Gospel to the rest of the world. Apostle Paul quoted from Hosea about this to Gentile Roman believers in Christ, per Romans 9, DIRECTLY CONNECTING THE TEN NORTHERN TRIBES OF ISRAEL WITH THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST.
Yes the tribes are Israel. Sorry if you thought they were JWs or whatever. Alaska has zero to do with it. Have you something against Jews or God restoring Israel in the time of Jacob's trouble? Or do you think Jacob really means Santa?
Ronald D Milam
Active Member
Yes, many say it has to be at least 7 years before the middle of the week because Israel is burning weapons for 7 years, and since they will not be in control after the midway point (the AC will be ruling at that time), that means if they burn weapons for 7 years the Gog and Magog war would have to be 7 years before the 1260 midpoint, but I have come to understand that the way God uses 7 and 10 simply put, most of the times, God is referring to COMPLETION, when its 10 its a completion by mankind as in the 10 kings or Horns/Toes of Daniel and when its 7 its DIVINE COMPLETION as in the 7 Eyes and 7 Spirits means God sees all and is everywhere, (completeness). Thus, I think the 7 years of Israel burning weapons simply means they completely get rid of their Nukes. How else could the E.U. and the Anti-Christ Conquer Israel if they still had nuclear weapons?
Here's the deal, the "Covenant" is simply an Agreement which is already in place (European Neighborhood Policy) and ran in 7 year cycles from 2007-2013 and from 2014-2020 and all that's needed is the Anti-Christ ruler to come to power and force HIS COMPROMISE DEAL onto these agreements already at hand. He will demand Israel give up their nukes after the Gog annihilation, in which everyone believes Israel killed them by using some kind of Special Weapons/Nukes etc. and he put pressure on BUT promises to be their protector, as the USA is to Hawaii so to speak, and Israel has been wanting to be a part of the E.U for 20 plus years, the play FUTBAL in the European zone. That is the Agreement they enter into, they become a part of the E.U. but have to give up their nukes, in the middle of the week the AC will then turn on them and attack them.
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Interesting speculation. Personally I see no reason why the seven years prophesied cannot be seven years. After all, the final seven years is seven years. The 31/2 years is exactly that. As for future pressure for Israel to give up nukes, that seems reasonable. After all, if they nuke Damascus and Iran or something, a lot of bad things will happen on earth.
However, since the Rapture may be happening when that war of Gog goes on, it is hard to speculate as to all the reasons for things. Possibly the US is Babylon the great and gets wiped off the map at this time also. Possibly China is hurt in the process, so maybe it is not the big honcho on the world scene then. That would leave Europe as the major player in the world if the US were destroyed and burned, China weakened, and Russia devastated by losing that war of Gog in Israel. That would fit the plagues, famine and etc that are coming. But who knows the actual sequence of events and reasons? It does seem a stretch to claim that the seven year agreement is some existing European thing. That agreement in the end is specific to Israel, and probably allows them to build the new temple etc.
Ronald D Milam
Active Member
Yes, I am not saying the 7 years of burning weapons is or is not 7 years, I am sounding a warning it may not need to be 7 years per se, we know the 70th week is 7 years because its part of a prophecy of 490 years which uses days to get there by giving us 70 sevens, thus again, (think about it) that is God saying Israel's punishment and all of the age of man will be over after the 70 sevens as in 10 x 7 x 7, as in man & God has a destiny with completion on this day, the 1260th day of the last half of the 70th week. We also know the last week is 7 years because we get detailed info of two 1260 day periods of time which will end the last 7 years. So, if something is so and so and is meant for a certain time period, I find it that God has a way of making that point very, very clear as in "Times, Time and Half" or the 1260 days of Rev. 12 or the 42 months of Rev. 13 etc.
As a person called specifically unto prophecy for 37 plus years, then who got a boost 6 or so years ago when praying and asking God why the Church was so all over the place in these end times when we should be ONE because we all have the same Holy Spirit, thus I asked God why there was 100s of understandings of who the Harlot is, what the Beast(s) mean, via the 144,000s identity, what the timing of the Rapture is etc. etc. Then I got this answer below from the Holy Spirit and I understood it instantaneously, He said "Ron, you guys already know it all" !! BOOM, We can not get the correct end time answers He is willing to give, because we already have our answers we got from other men from long ago (Hal Lindsey to whoever) and those understandings have a "Roadblock Effect" on us, even though all of those men may have been great men of God (or not, LOL, in many cases). So lets say at 11 years old a young kid can't grasp that 2 + 2 = 4 because until he was 10 he was taught that 2 + 2 = 5, and its a roadblock unto his learning ability, that's the Church in essence the way the holy spirit described it unto me, "you guys already know it all".
For instance, the 144,000 are nowhere in the bible said to be these "Jewish Super Preachers" but that has become Legend and is just repeated by 99.5 percent of even modern day preachers. So, since I knew God wanted me to go back and reread and to simply ASK God what everything meant, just as I had done vis the Gospels, and that He would answer me because in these End Times that is His desire, we the Church actually need to know now !! So, when rereading the book of Revelation I understood the 144,000 are said to "Need Protection" and if these were actually super Jewish Preachers they would not need protection, AND I saw that they were between the Seals being opened, which I have come to see as NOT JUDGMENTS, they only Seal the Judgment Scroll up as a letter from a king would be sealed, or as if a closet door had 7 locks on it and that closet could only be looked into once the 7th lock was taken off. Thus I understood that the 144,000 comes between the Seals being loosed and the Rev. 8 Judgments falling, and they need protection, and they are Jews, thus just like the Woman in Rev. 12 I asked could this just be a code word for the fleeing Jews. And it indeed was:
144,000 is 12 (Fulness) x 12 x 10 (Completion) x 10 x 10 = 144,000 to me that is God SHOUTING via a code in a book full of codes or encoded messages that this is ALL Israel who have repented fleeing Judea unto the Mountains, the fact they are virgins = the 10 (Completion) Virgin Brides who represent ALL Christendom but are only Virgins in Christ, else He would not marry us. They are seen just before the DOTL (Rev. 8 Trumpet Asteroid) events, thus they turn unto Christ Jesus as Zechariah 13:8-9 and Malachi 4:5 says just before the DOTL, that would be them fleeing, and God says HOLD UP the four winds (Judgment actions) until the 144,000 are SEALED like we are, with the holy spirit, and until the are in the safe zone of the Petra/Bozrah area.
This only came to me in full after I understood how God uses numbers. The 10 Commandments represent ALL God's Word, the 10 Plagues, the 7 Churches, I actually think 666 just means the Last Beast is a MAN not a Beast Kingdom like the others, he will only be revealed when he conquers Israel and THE MANY who are all the nations in the Mediterranean Sea Region. So, the 7 eyes and 7 spirits and 7 judgments all can be 7 but for the most part they represents God's completion, the 7 Feasts are 1. Passover (Fulfilled) 2. Unleavened Bread (Jesus knew no sin) 3. First-fruits (Jesus was the first-fruits of the grave) 4. Feast of weeks/The Harvest/Pentecost or the Church Age (This was always ended by THE LAST TRUMP every year !! Thus Jesus calling us home ends the Summer Harvest of the Church Age) 5. Feast of Trumps (Ends the Church Age, the LAST TRUMP was the 100th Trump and sounded longer and louder than the other 99 after they spied out the New Moon which could only start the New Year, but it could be over a two day period, thus no one ever knew the exact Day nor Hour......but the SEASON was known). The Feast of Atonement (The 70th week Prophecy of Dan. 9:24-27 says Israel MUST ATONE and they do so AFTER the Pre Trib Rapture of the Church) 7. Feast of Tabernacle ( To TABERNACLE means to DWELL with God and Israel will indeed Dwell with Jesus/God for 1000 years.)
So, these were Holy Convocations, or Dress Rehearsals, LOL........Sorry about my tangents, I get going and can't stop. Anyway, God uses numbers in keen ways and we have to pick up on it.
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