Timing of the abomination of desolation

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Randy Kluth

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That didn't last. They soon returned to idolatry, apostasy, and depravity, resulting in God's ongoing punishment, and ultimate complete destruction.

If you live a life that is faithful to God, I cannot say 10 generations later that when some of your children are faithless, you failed! If Israel has been faithful at times in their relationship with God, then failures down the line does not spell their defeat. The promised age-long punishment of the nation was not intended by God to annihilate them. Rather, it was a temporary marginalization, to give time for other nations to enter into their own covenant relationship with God.

God utterly destroyed that nation in 70AD, and signaled that He was building His True Church, which would be a new nation. ( Matthew 16:18; 1 Peter 2:9).
 

covenantee

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Paul was not arguing there are 2 Israels.

He isn't arguing anything. He is merely describing reality. Two Israels.

There is "of Israel" and there is "all Israel", each with the characteristics listed.

"Of Israel" are those who are outside of Christ. They are lost.

"All Israel" are the remnant who are in Christ. They are saved.
 
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covenantee

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Rather, it was a temporary marginalization, to give time for other nations to enter into their own covenant relationship with God.

The only nation with a covenant relationship with God is the Holy Nation of His True Church. Matthew 16:18; 1 Peter 2:9
 
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Keraz

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To turn the nation into a godly nation, there will have to be great judgment.
In Romans 11:28-32: it does say some of the Jewish people will receive God's mercy, despite their continued rejection of Jesus. Romans 9:27
There will be two main criteria for this:
1/ They must be actual members of the House of Judah. Not those who call themselves Jews, but are not. Revelation 2:9
2/ They must show true repentance and remorse, as Jeremiah 12:14-16 tells us:..... I will have pity on them [Judah] and bring them back to their Land, if they learn the ways of My People, [Christians] and swear allegiance to My Name.

Note; the remnant Jews will be so ashamed of their errors, they will keep very quiet. Ezekiel 16:63

However; the main Christian peoples who will go to live in all of the holy Land after the Lord has cleared and cleansed it, will be descendants of the ten Northern tribes; the House of Israel, joined by every faithful Christian from every race, nation and language. Isaiah 66:18b-21, Revelation 5:9-10
This will fulfil God's promise to the Patriarchs, that their descendants will inherit the holy Land. Ezekiel 34:11-16, Romans 9:24-26
 

Randy Kluth

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He isn't arguing anything. He is merely describing reality. Two Israels.

There is "of Israel" and there is "all Israel", each with the characteristics listed.

"Of Israel" are those who are outside of Christ. They are lost.

"All Israel" are the remnant who are in Christ. They are saved.

I don't see "2 Israels." There are good and bad people in 1 Israel.
 

Randy Kluth

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The only nation with a covenant relationship with God is the Holy Nation of His True Church. Matthew 16:18; 1 Peter 2:9

I disagree. Just as Israel entered into a covenant relationship with God as a single nation, so many nations in the NT era may enter into a covenant relationship with God. To bunch together these many Christian nations and call them a single "nation" is, I think, a misinterpretation of the verse where Peter recalls Israel's original calling, in Exo 19.6, to be a holy nation.
 

Randy Kluth

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In Romans 11:28-32: it does say some of the Jewish people will receive God's mercy, despite their continued rejection of Jesus. Romans 9:27
There will be two main criteria for this:
1/ They must be actual members of the House of Judah. Not those who call themselves Jews, but are not. Revelation 2:9
2/ They must show true repentance and remorse, as Jeremiah 12:14-16 tells us:..... I will have pity on them [Judah] and bring them back to their Land, if they learn the ways of My People, [Christians] and swear allegiance to My Name.

Note; the remnant Jews will be so ashamed of their errors, they will keep very quiet. Ezekiel 16:63

However; the main Christian peoples who will go to live in all of the holy Land after the Lord has cleared and cleansed it, will be descendants of the ten Northern tribes; the House of Israel, joined by every faithful Christian from every race, nation and language. Isaiah 66:18b-21, Revelation 5:9-10
This will fulfil God's promise to the Patriarchs, that their descendants will inherit the holy Land. Ezekiel 34:11-16, Romans 9:24-26

Our issues are unresolvable. I see the northern tribes represented in the Jewish People because they migrated to Judah after the division of Solomon's Kingdom. The Northern tribes remaining in the Kingdom of Israel were taken into captivity by Assyria, and have been lost to history. They did not merge with Gentile ethnicities, rendering those ethnicities "the Northern tribes of Israel." Rather, the exiled Israelis were lost into Gentile nations, and can never more be considered to be "Israel."

But be happy with your convictions. And remain open to whatever the Lord shows you.
 

Truth7t7

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I disagree. Just as Israel entered into a covenant relationship with God as a single nation, so many nations in the NT era may enter into a covenant relationship with God. To bunch together these many Christian nations and call them a single "nation" is, I think, a misinterpretation of the verse where Peter recalls Israel's original calling, in Exo 19.6, to be a holy nation.
Covenantee is 100% correct

There is only one covenant between man and God, that is the shed blood upon Calvary "Period"

To claim a entire "Nation" 100% will come to this saving grace is a "Fairy Tale" and against the basic teaching in scripture "Narrow Is The Way" "Few Will Find It"
 
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covenantee

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Just as Israel entered into a covenant relationship with God as a single nation

Every nation is comprised of its individuals.

If you believe that Israel entered into a covenant relationship with God, then you are saying that every individual within Israel entered into a covenant relationship with God.

Korah and his followers were individuals within Israel.

What covenant relationship did they have with God when He slew them?

To bunch together these many Christian nations

You continue to confuse individuals with nations. It is covenanted individuals, not nations, who comprise the Holy Nation of the true Church.
 
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Keraz

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the exiled Israelis were lost into Gentile nations, and can never more be considered to be "Israel."
Not according to the Lord, are they are lost forever: Amos 9:9
Hosea 11:8-11 How can I desert Ephraim, [the leader of the ten Northern tribes] They will come back and live in their heritage.
Isaiah 11:11-13 At that timer, [when we become Christians] the Lord will act for a second time and gather those scattered from Israel and the people of Judah and they will own all of the holy Land.
Many, many other Prophesies confirm this truth.
 

Randy Kluth

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Covenantee is 100% correct

There is only one covenant between man and God, that is the shed blood upon Calvary "Period"

To claim a entire "Nation" 100% will come to this saving grace is a "Fairy Tale" and against the basic teaching in scripture "Narrow Is The Way" "Few Will Find It"

No, Israel had a covenant with God prior to Calvary. There has therefore been more than one covenant between Man and God. Though the covenant of Law has expired, it nevertheless was a genuine covenant between God and Man.
 

Randy Kluth

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Every nation is comprised of its individuals.

If you believe that Israel entered into a covenant relationship with God, then you are saying that every individual within Israel entered into a covenant relationship with God.

Korah and his followers were individuals within Israel.

What covenant relationship did they have with God when He slew them?

Yes, when God made a covenant, under the Law, with Israel, it involved every single individual in Israel. The failure of many simply meant that those individuals failed to keep their part of the agreement.

You continue to confuse individuals with nations. It is covenanted individuals, not nations, who comprise the Holy Nation of the true Church.

No, I don't confuse nations and individuals. Nations represent a group of individuals. Individuals view only individuals.

Your view of the international Church as a "nation" is, I think, a flawed view of Peter's reference to ancient Israel, a nation called to be "holy." An international entity is not a single nation.
 

Randy Kluth

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Not according to the Lord, are they are lost forever: Amos 9:9
Hosea 11:8-11 How can I desert Ephraim, [the leader of the ten Northern tribes] They will come back and live in their heritage.
Isaiah 11:11-13 At that timer, [when we become Christians] the Lord will act for a second time and gather those scattered from Israel and the people of Judah and they will own all of the holy Land.
Many, many other Prophesies confirm this truth.

You've simply enlarged the Anglo-Israel theory to include more Western ethnicities. By definition Western ethnicities are not "Israel," which has a completely different Semitic ethnicity. Even if Israeli DNA is sprinkled throughout the European peoples, they cannot, in my opinion, be viewed as "Israel" in any sense whatsoever. Being Christian does not change their DNA.
 

Truth7t7

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No, Israel had a covenant with God prior to Calvary. There has therefore been more than one covenant between Man and God. Though the covenant of Law has expired, it nevertheless was a genuine covenant between God and Man.
There is no covenant between God and a Nation as you claim, it's your desire and assumption found no place in scripture, comparable to a child's desire for Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy to be real

Once again and again, the shed blood upon Calvary is the only covenant that exists between God and man "period"
 
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covenantee

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The failure of many simply meant that those individuals failed to keep their part of the agreement.

They committed "breach of covenant", which is a condition within legal jurisprudence, and which renders a covenant null and void.

Thus uncovenanted, God slew them, and thousands of others over the course of Israel's history.

And ultimately, all of the uncovenanted individuals, encompassing the entire nation, were either slain or exiled in 70 AD.
 

Dropship

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The Jews may have been God's 'Chosen People' in ancient times, but that was because he needed somewhere to send his Son later on, so he nurtured them and had their backs and Israel became a comparitively civilised nation compared to the heathen tribes around them.
So God then sent Jesus, what could possibly go wrong?..:)
Oh wait-
“..the Jews shouted.. Crucify him!” (John 19:14-15)
and they've been rejecting him ever since, so if they think God will cut them some slack, they might as well whistle dixie..:)

rel god-point2 (1).jpg
 

Randy Kluth

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They committed "breach of covenant", which is a condition within legal jurisprudence, and which renders a covenant null and void.

Thus uncovenanted, God slew them, and thousands of others over the course of Israel's history.

And ultimately, all of the uncovenanted individuals, encompassing the entire nation, were either slain or exiled in 70 AD.

I don't happen to share that view, nor is it even stated as such. Those who had entered into covenant with God through the Law were indeed killed. But certainly not all who have given up on that covenant have been killed in judgment. And that's because many sin out of ignorance, or under duress. God is merciful and compassionate. He doesn't wish to kill anybody in judgment.

So Israel is really in the same place as the pagan world, not having a covenant any longer. Yes, the nation as a whole violated terms of the covenant, and Christ died. The covenant of Law was over. But the covenant of promise remains.

Now that Israel is without the covenant of Law God is not busy killing them all! How ridiculous! Jews are eligible for God's mercy through repentance just like any other ethnic group.

They are not specially targeted for death simply because they once were under the covenant of Law and broke it. Those specifically who broke the Law Christ died to forgive! Never forget that!

Those who died while Israel was still under the covenant died under judgment because they knew the Law. But many Jews have fallen away from true knowledge of God, and don't know what they're doing, as Jesus said on the cross. They are just like all pagans, subject to their conscience and without a close knowledge of God.
 

Keraz

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You've simply enlarged the Anglo-Israel theory to include more Western ethnicities. By definition Western ethnicities are not "Israel," which has a completely different Semitic ethnicity. Even if Israeli DNA is sprinkled throughout the European peoples, they cannot, in my opinion, be viewed as "Israel" in any sense whatsoever. Being Christian does not change their DNA.
As DNA has nothing to do with who is a faithful Christian, your comments are of no value.
But God does have a secret and that pertains to where the ancient Israelites of the Northern ten tribes were taken to and have eventually settled. As Jeremiah 31:21 tells us; they left waymarks, dolmens along their route thru Europe and the Lord's people are prophesied to return to their heritage before Jesus Returns.

The simple truth is, Judah - the Jews, are no longer a part of the People God chose - no ethnicity is. Only faith and keeping the Commandments count for anything today. For us now, our concern should be to stay strong ttru all that must take place before Jesus returns.
 
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n2thelight

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You are arguing that there is an Antichrist predicted in the NT. I said there is no *AoD representing Antichrist* predicted in the NT.

First you must understand what is meant by the term AoD

Matthew 24:15 "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place (whoso readeth, let him understand:)"

This reference is directed to Daniel 9:27.

The "abomination" is when Satan stands in Jerusalem, and proclaims that he is God, and the world believes it. The "desolation" is an incorrect translation into the English, which should read "desolator", and Satan is the desolator that will make the claim that he is God, the true Christ. "Desolation" is a condition, in the Hebrew manuscripts it is written, "On the wings of the desolator," this is not a condition, but a entity, a person. It is through this individual, Satan that the abomination shall come from. It is the desolator [Satan] that shall cause all but the sealed of God, to become desolate, or deceived.

Daniel 9:27 "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and the determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

The Holy place is the place that the temple sits, and this is the subject for the very first, when the buildings of the temple were observed by the disciples, and the question of what it would be like at His second advent. This is where the desolation [Satan, the Antichrist] shall sit on mount Zion, making his abominations, or statements that he is the Christ.

The world will be deceived when Satan claims himself to be Christ, for he does have supernatural powers, and he will use them to to draw the peoples of the world to come to peace.
 

Randy Kluth

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As DNA has nothing to do with who is a faithful Christian, your comments are of no value.
But God does have a secret and that pertains to where the ancient Israelites of the Northern ten tribes were taken to and have eventually settled.

This is a contradiction, as I see it. If DNA has nothing to do with it, who cares where ancient Israelites of the Northern ten tribes were taken?