TODAY you will be with me in paradise

[Truthnightmare]

With all due respect, I don't think the Bible indulges in theoretical physics, eg wormholes. A lot of people speak of the relativity of time without a clue of what that means, experientially.

Therefore, I think Jesus intended to tell the thief that he would instantly be with him after death *that day.* It was not a theoretical day aligned with a future day in which Christ returns. It was *that particular day* in which he died.

Once we are created, we are subject to the rules of creation, involving time and space. The thief is in a literal place and at a literal time. The time he entered paradise was on that calendar day, not associated with the day of Christ's return.

The thief wanted to be with Jesus when his Kingdom comes, which would be distant in the future. But Jesus corrected that by saying he would instantly be with him following death. This would naturally lead to participation in the Kingdom when it finally does come.

With all due respect, I don't think the Bible indulges in theoretical physics, eg wormholes. A lot of people speak of the relativity of time without a clue of what that means, experientially.

In the beginning God created the heavens
and the earth.

Beginning = time
Heavens = space
Earth = matter

A continuum all have to come into existence at once.

If you have matter but no space where would you put it?

If you have matter and space with no time, when would you put it.

Time has past present future

Space has length width height

Matter has solid liquid gas

A trinity of trinity’s.. God is a physicists

Learned this from a Christian physicists

 

[Randy Kluth]

In the beginning God created the heavens
and the earth.

Beginning = time
Heavens = space
Earth = matter

A continuum all have to come into existence at once.

If you have matter but no space where would you put it?

If you have matter and space with no time, when would you put it.

Time has past present future

Space has length width height

Matter has solid liquid gas

A trinity of trinity’s.. God is a physicists

Learned this from a Christian physicists

You don't need that info from a physicist when you can get it from your own experience. We've all experienced water in solid, liquid, and gas states. We all experience time in the past, present, and will in the future.

As I said, beyond this we get into the theoretical. Hence your questions have no answer from our own experience. That was my point. Once we are created, we are subject to the laws of our creation.

 

[Truthnightmare]

You don't need that info from a physicist when you can get it from your own experience. We've all experienced water in solid, liquid, and gas states. We all experience time in the past, present, and will in the future.

As I said, beyond this we get into the theoretical. Hence your questions have no answer from our own experience. That was my point. Once we are created, we are subject to the laws of our creation.

Experience is not absolute denoting of understanding. I can learn fire will burn my sticking my hand in the fire (experience) but does not tell me why fire is hot.

Should we abolish the teaching of physics, and tell everyone they can gather the knowledge from experience?

We must get understanding.

7] Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.

Yes we are subject to laws of creation, and many of these laws are physics.

 

[Randy Kluth]

You still insist that the spirit is a conscious entity, when no scripture says so.

I just gave you my argument, which you then ignored? Jesus viewed a dead child as "sleeping," because he viewed her spirit as still alive. If her spirit was dead, along with her body, she wouldn't be "sleeping," would she? When people sleep they are still alive!

The “spirit” is the “breath of life” that animates a soul.....how can animals have the same spirit as man and breathe the same air and die the same death, if man alone has a spirit that lives on without a body or soul? This is not a Bible teaching.

The Bible speaks of the spirit of a man going up and the spirit of an animal going down. But yes, people and animals both are spiritual entities, one going up to God and the other going down to the ground.

Eccl 3.21 Who knows if the human spirit rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?”

However, when you compare men and animals you are neglecting the main difference--Man is created in the image of God, whereas animals are not. Just as animals were made for us, we were made for God.

When Jesus said that God “DESTROYS” both “body and soul in Gehenna” (Matt 10:28)....there is no mention of a spirit.....the whole person is obliterated from life, found unworthy to retain the gift. No one alive is in Gehenna.

The destruction of the entire person in Gehenna indicates their complete removal from God's paradise on the New Earth. It has nothing to do with the annihilation of the person--just his removal.

It's like a "cut and paste" operation. When a person makes a "cut" the image is completely *destroyed.* But it remains on the clipboard to be "pasted" in a new document.

“Sheol” is translated as “hades” in Greek, so they mean one and the same thing. Sheol is the place where all the dead go....the common grave of all mankind (Eccl 9:5-6, 10)....those in sheol know nothing....cannot think, plan or exercise wisdom in a place where the dead sleep.

I've not said otherwise--not sure what you're trying to prove? People go to the place of the dead when their bodies die. You can call it Sheol or you can call it Hades.

I know that you are desperate to keep the dead alive, but that was satan’s lie...”you surely will not die”...
God never mentioned an afterlife of any description to Adam. There was just life or death.

Satan was giving a half truth. People never die completely just as Satan himself has not died. But death indicates the separation that we experience from God spiritually, resulting in the death of our bodies. This is the 1st death.

I have given you scripture already concerning the Jewish belief in the condition of the dead. The dead stayed in their graves awaiting their resurrection...they haven’t gone anywhere.....there is no “holding tank” full of spirits of the dead.....the only spirits in existence are those who were created to live in heaven.

This is what I read about Jewish beliefs: "Judaism does not have a definitive answer to the question of what happens after we die." CLICK

Also: Traditional Jews believe that during the Messianic Age, the temple will be rebuilt in Jerusalem, the Jewish people ingathered from the far corners of the earth and the bodies of the dead will be brought back to life and reunited with their souls.... This belief — distinct from, though connected to, the belief in the immortality of the soul — is mentioned explicitly only twice in the Hebrew Bible, in the books of Isaiah and Daniel, though hints of it are extrapolated from other biblical sources.
CLICK

The only humans who will go to heaven are specially chosen for a role in God’s Kingdom....they must experience a rebirth in order to exist there. Not all Christians will go to heaven...that is not where God put us. We were designed to live on earth and the earth was designed to support our lives forever.

And you get this from where?

So you have never scripturally tested the teachings of the church system which Jesus and his apostles said was going to fall into apostasy?

I've tested everything. In fact I did a study a long time ago searching for the origins of each NT doctrine. Not saying I know it all, though. I don't.

What we have today is a very poor substitute for what Jesus started. It does not resemble first century Christianity at all. Can Christ be the head of a divided church?

Yes, he can. Christ is head over a divided Church right now. He just seeks to heal the divisions, or disqualify those who are off the track.

Elijah did not go to heaven....he was spectacularly transferred to a new assignment, this time in the neighboring kingdom of Judah.

2 Kings 2.11 As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind.

I don't believe Elijah ever returned from heaven.

Hades has been twisted into something it never was. There is no such place as the “Hell” that Christendom believes in.

Hades and Hell refer to the place of the dead, and is mentioned in the Scriptures. It is disposed of in the Lake of Fire.

What kind of loving God torments people forever without any way out.

When a person leaves his or her spouse for someone else, and later realizes it was a terrible mistake, they will regret their decision the rest of their life. When someone rejects Christ, they will regret their choice for the rest of their eternal life. That is the "torment." It cannot be otherwise anymore than the adulterer can avoid feeling guilt and shame for committing adultery.

What punishment under God’s law ever involved torment? To be sentenced to suffer for all eternity for a short lifetime of sin is against God’s perfect justice. The penalty does not fit the crime.

I agree that many probably have it wrong to some degree. That's why I don't believe God "tortures" people for eternity. But the regret will be eternal, and the distance from God's Presence will be eternal. No avoiding that. I do think there will be a reasonably livable place for the Lost in eternity, and a means of production for their Lord God.

But God apparently has little interest in dwelling on much more than the choice that must be made here and now. The choice is simply this: Do we want to live in the Presence of God, which requires our submission to Him, or do we dislike who He is?

 

[Truthnightmare]

We may disagree on our relationship to physics
and it’s application upon life in the flesh.

But this was one of the best responses I’ve ever read….

I will merely point out God is the God of the living, not the dead. God is also a consuming fire, this should be considered when we think of the lake fire… The lake of fire destroys everything, including hell… and souls that go in will be blotted out of existence, no eternal torment.

 

[TheHC]

But if you remove the commas which are not God breathed or switched it to after to day you then have the correct rendering of the scripture.

I appreciate your statement,
“….the commas which are not God breathed….”!!

You are so right! Such punctuation was not in the original Greek writings, they had to be added afterward, when translated. Which wouldn’t have been inspired.

The comma being placed after “today” does not contradict other scripture, such as Matthew 12:40 in combination with Psalm 16:10 which Peter quoted in Acts 2:27.

Take care

 

[Brakelite]

Only Christian cults would say that. Conventional Christianity defines what conventional Christianity is--not apostates like yourself.

I don't mean to be rude, but you're an outsider defining "Christianity" for Christians. That is not a valid means of defining Christianity. It's much more acceptable to get a definition of "Christianity" from conventional Christians.

Sorry, but that's nonsense. So called conventional Christianity cannot validate itself... It is validated by scripture and the fruit of the Spirit. Nothing more, nothing less.
In the last days, just before the second coming, there are only 2 overt groups.
1. Babylon the Great and her harlot daughters on one side controlling religion and the political landscape of the world, of which the Antichrist as a system of apostasy persecutes the "remnant of her seed" (Rev.12:17; Matt.24:9) and
2. Those who keep the commandments of God and have the faith and testimony of Jesus. (Rev. 12:17; 14:12).
It will be Babylon the Great, the harlot, who will be controlling the religious and political landscape, and will be dictating to the world what is and what isn't conventional Christianity. The true church, God's people, will be recognised by their faith and obedience to God's commandments, and will be hated of all nations for that very reason. Conventional? Orthodoxy? I think God's final witness to His resurrection power and glory will be the most unconventional unorthodox people on earth.

 

[Ziggy]

I don't know if this question has been asked in this thread, but can someone tell me how long To day is?

Heb 3:13
But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

If we are to exhort one another DAILY, while it is called To day... How long is To day?

Thank you

 

[bluedragon]

What Does Scripture Say about Paradise and What Heaven Will Be Like? - Topical Studies

Paradise is mentioned three times in Scripture, first in Luke 23:43. These few references tell us something vital about what God has in store for us....

www.biblestudytools.com

Bosom of Abraham - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Randy Kluth]

Sorry, but that's nonsense. So called conventional Christianity cannot validate itself... It is validated by scripture and the fruit of the Spirit. Nothing more, nothing less.

This is a total contradiction. What is validation by Scripture but validation by "conventional Christianity," and its Apostles? You cannot have a validation by Scripture apart from the Apostles and Christianity!

I don't know what your problem is, but you continue to be a thorn in the side. You're angry at something and instead of firing at the enemy you fire at friends and brothers.

This is something Separatism in Christianity has been vulnerable to. At a time when State Christianity has faltered, Separatism looks really good and like proper Christianity when it is not the rule, but only the exception. God would prefer an entire society to be Christian, as opposed to a small Christian sect that stands opposed to the social order and to State rule.

But I don't personally want to be a rebel, and will accept rejection by a fallen State and by a fallen Christianity as long as I feel confident I'm not inviting it with a hostile attitude. We should not deny the truth, but we need to state it in love, to the best we can.

In the last days, just before the second coming, there are only 2 overt groups.
1. Babylon the Great and her harlot daughters on one side controlling religion and the political landscape of the world, of which the Antichrist as a system of apostasy persecutes the "remnant of her seed" (Rev.12:17; Matt.24:9) and
2. Those who keep the commandments of God and have the faith and testimony of Jesus. (Rev. 12:17; 14:12).
It will be Babylon the Great, the harlot, who will be controlling the religious and political landscape, and will be dictating to the world what is and what isn't conventional Christianity. The true church, God's people, will be recognised by their faith and obedience to God's commandments, and will be hated of all nations for that very reason. Conventional? Orthodoxy? I think God's final witness to His resurrection power and glory will be the most unconventional unorthodox people on earth.

You should not define "conventional Christianity" by its exceptions, particularly in the last days when it has been predicted that great apostasy will rule. This is *not* "conventional Christianity!"

 

[Hobie]

Luke 23:


i.e., the second coming on the last day of the current universe


This criminal died on his last day on Earth. When a person dies, time stops with respect to him (e.g., gravitational time dilation). When he is resurrected, he will be with Jesus in paradise. To him, it will be the same day: today, i.e., the last day of the old universe. From his perspective and God's perspective, there wasn't even any waiting. His today is the same as his last day on the old earth and is the same as the last day of the universe after he is resurrected, John 6:


In terms of physics, a wormhole (Einstein-Rosen bridge) is a structure that connects two black holes. It is possible that an object that falls into one end of a wormhole can travel through it and come out at the other end at a different point in space-time.

Some believe that the dead have a conscious spirit existence in Sheol/Hades as in the story of The Rich Man and Lazarus. I think that is a parable meant to be symbolic and not physical.

I don't think our dead loved ones can presently see us from heaven.

Another Lazarus was not a parable but a real person. He was the brother of Mary and Martha. He was dead for 4 days (John 11:39). I don't think he would appreciate Jesus resurrecting him while he was enjoying his time in heaven.

See also What is a human soul?.

Everyone when coming up when Christ raises them out of the grave, it will be like a moment from when they went into the grave and the next they see the Redeemer waiting for them with a cloud of angels to take the to heaven....