TODAY you will be with me in paradise

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TonyChanYT

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Luke 23:

39 One of the criminals who were hanged railed at him, saying, “Are you not the Christ? Save yourself and us!” 40 But the other rebuked him, saying, “Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” 42And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.”
i.e., the second coming on the last day of the current universe

43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”
This criminal died on his last day on Earth. When a person dies, time stops with respect to him (e.g., gravitational time dilation). When he is resurrected, he will be with Jesus in paradise. To him, it will be the same day: today, i.e., the last day of the old universe. From his perspective and God's perspective, there wasn't even any waiting. His today is the same as his last day on the old earth and is the same as the last day of the universe after he is resurrected, John 6:

40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”
In terms of physics, a wormhole (Einstein-Rosen bridge) is a structure that connects two black holes. It is possible that an object that falls into one end of a wormhole can travel through it and come out at the other end at a different point in space-time.

Some believe that the dead have a conscious spirit existence in Sheol/Hades as in the story of The Rich Man and Lazarus. I think that is a parable meant to be symbolic and not physical.

I don't think our dead loved ones can presently see us from heaven.

Another Lazarus was not a parable but a real person. He was the brother of Mary and Martha. He was dead for 4 days (John 11:39). I don't think he would appreciate Jesus resurrecting him while he was enjoying his time in heaven.

See also What is a human soul?.
 

Randy Kluth

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Luke 23:


i.e., the second coming on the last day of the current universe


This criminal died on his last day on Earth. When a person dies, time stops with respect to him (e.g., gravitational time dilation). When he is resurrected, he will be with Jesus in paradise.
With all due respect, I don't think the Bible indulges in theoretical physics, eg wormholes. A lot of people speak of the relativity of time without a clue of what that means, experientially.

Therefore, I think Jesus intended to tell the thief that he would instantly be with him after death *that day.* It was not a theoretical day aligned with a future day in which Christ returns. It was *that particular day* in which he died.

Once we are created, we are subject to the rules of creation, involving time and space. The thief is in a literal place and at a literal time. The time he entered paradise was on that calendar day, not associated with the day of Christ's return.

The thief wanted to be with Jesus when his Kingdom comes, which would be distant in the future. But Jesus corrected that by saying he would instantly be with him following death. This would naturally lead to participation in the Kingdom when it finally does come.
 

marks

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This criminal died on his last day on Earth. When a person dies, time stops with respect to him (e.g., gravitational time dilation). When he is resurrected, he will be with Jesus in paradise. To him, it will be the same day: today, i.e., the last day of the old universe. From his perspective and God's perspective, there wasn't even any waiting. His today is the same as his last day on the old earth and is the same as the last day of the universe after he is resurrected,
Personally, I don't think this is something you can actually know, meanwhile, I'm perfectly prepared to accept the common meaning to what Jesus told the man. He'd be with Him in paradise that self-same day as the day on which they spoke.

Jesus spoke of those in Sheol, and also showed John a vision that showed people in heaven - souls under the altar, 24 elders - and again I'm perfectly willing to accept the truth in those Scriptures also.

Much love!
 
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Tommy Cool

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This criminal died on his last day on Earth. When a person dies, time stops with respect to him (e.g., gravitational time dilation). When he is resurrected, he will be with Jesus in paradise. To him, it will be the same day: today, i.e., the last day of the old universe. From his perspective and God's perspective, there wasn't even any waiting. His today is the same as his last day on the old earth and is the same as the last day of the universe after he is resurrected, John 6:
I actually agree ….I may refer to it with the biblical metaphor sleep (not soul sleep).

Any of the just (prior to the administration/dispensation of grace) who are dead will be resurrected in paradise.
Just as when we physically sleep, …when we awake, if it’s a good night sleep, it’s like the moment we went to sleep.

We know that Jesus did not go to paradise that day …He was dead for 3 days and 3 nights… and the malefactor is awaiting the resurrection …………so the discrepancy with the scripture stating they both would be in paradise has to be in our understanding….and it is to a degree in our understanding, which is driven by a tiny little comma that the translators inserted.

Most scripture read:

Luk 23:43
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, .......... To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

But if you remove the commas which are not God breathed or switched it to after to day you then have the correct rendering of the scripture.

Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee To day, .............shalt thou be with me in paradise.


{“I say unto thee was a common biblical idiom... and is used at least 20 times in the Old and NT.}
 

GRACE ambassador

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I may refer to it with the biblical metaphor sleep (not soul sleep).

Any of the just (prior to the administration/dispensation of grace) who are dead will be resurrected in paradise.
Just as when we physically sleep, …when we awake, if it’s a good night sleep, it’s like the moment we went to sleep.

We know that Jesus did not go to paradise that day
Precious friend, respectfully disagree, according to the Scriptures:

see post #4

Amen.
 
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bluedragon

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The Bible specifically states that Jesus preached to those in Sheol. The purpose of that preaching was to inform those in Sheol that the Son of God had been born, then preached for three years and was crucified. In that message the room was then emptied. Those who had followed God went to Heaven with Jesus .....including the thief on the cross. The doors to Sheol were destroyed ....Those across the gap or gulf that could talk across the gulf ....are still in Hades and that room is getting full and more so by the day. No one resides in Sheol today ....

Sheol was also known as Abraham's Bossom and Paradise ...The Bible tells the story of the man in Hades that begged for one drop of water, then asked that his brother be informed about not believing ....There was a gap or gulf between those that believed and those that didn't. they could not reach across the gap or gulf to touch one another. There was a barrier between ...
 
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Tommy Cool

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The Bible ....

I think Tony is looking for specific reference.
As much of this appears to be private interpretation.

But I have some questions


preached for three years and was crucified.
How could Jesus be a lamb of the first year …and preach for 3 years?



Those who had followed God went to Heaven with Jesus …including the thief on the cross.

How could those who had followed God go to heaven when Jesus specifically stated Jhn 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Additionally: didn’t Jesus promise the one on the cross → Paradise ….not heaven. They are not the same.

Also: ...BOTH the thieves cast the same in Jesus’s teeth … Mat 27:44 The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth.

The doors to Sheol were destroyed. Those across the gap or gulf that could talk across the gulf are still in Hades and that room is getting full and more so by the day. No one resides in Sheol today.
Where does this come from?


Hades was used as the Greek counterpart for the Hebrew word sheol …. But sheol is used in the OT as a state or reign of being in the grave rather than a place or the grave itself. ....5 different Greek words are translated into the English word hell with different meanings.. one of those is sheol

Gehenna
” (geenna) A Greek word for the Hebrew “valley of Hinnom” which was a city dump outside of Jerusalem.

Katakaio is used in Hebrews_13:11 regarding the sacrificial beasts that were burned outside the camp.

Tartarous is used once and translated hell in II Peter_2:4 it refers to the place of imprisoned evil spirits, not a place of torment for sinners.

Hades (is translated hell 10, times and grave 1 time) “The English word hell has taken on the mythological Greek meaning associated with the pagan idea of an underworld where the dead continue to live on in torment.” In Greek mythology Hades was the god of the underworld and his name came to represent this fictitious place that we understand as Hell.

Sheol was also known as Abraham's Bossom and Paradise
Abraham's Bossom is a Parable that continues to collect all sorts of made up meanings... depending on the religion.

Paradise is, and will be in the future .... someplace on earth.
 

Aunty Jane

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Luke 23:42-43...”Then he said: “Jesus, remember me when you get into your Kingdom.” 43 And he said to him: “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”
Since there was no punctuation in Greek, the placement of the comma is important because changing its location also changes the meaning of what Jesus told this repentant thief.

If it is placed after the word “today”, it reads...Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in Paradise.
This was said in the form of an oath made that very day. It was not an odd thing for a Jew to say in those times.
i.e., the second coming on the last day of the current universe
I’m not sure that there is such a thing as a “current universe”, as everything God made was pronounced “very good” on the day of its completion. The universe of God’s making will stand forever, as will this earth. (Eccl 1:4; Psalm 78:69; Psalm 104:5) There is no defect or fault with the material creation....sin came only through man....so it is wicked mankind who will be removed from the earth......the earth and the universe will “stand forever.”
This criminal died on his last day on Earth. When a person dies, time stops with respect to him (e.g., gravitational time dilation). When he is resurrected, he will be with Jesus in paradise. To him, it will be the same day: today, i.e., the last day of the old universe. From his perspective and God's perspective, there wasn't even any waiting. His today is the same as his last day on the old earth and is the same as the last day of the universe after he is resurrected,
John 6:40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”
This is an important point since the resurrection of the dead is a scheduled event, split into two parts. There is a “first resurrection” of the ones chosen from the earth to be “kings and priests” in the heavenly kingdom, (Rev 20:6) and later when Christ has cleansed the earth of all wickedness, a general resurrection of the dead (both righteous and unrighteous ) will take place as Jesus calls these ones from their graves on earth...some to life after a faithful course...and other to a period of judgment. (John 5:28-29) These will be the subjects of the heavenly kingdom. (Rev 21:2-4)

Since there is no teaching of an immortal soul in the Bible, those in their graves “sleep”, unaware of the passage of time, hence, at their resurrection, they will open their eyes as if they fell asleep only a moment ago. Death does not take us to destinations unknown. Death is no more scary than a good night’s sleep.
The incorrigibly wicked will simply not wake up. That is the difference between hades and Gehenna.
Gehenna is the place from which no one is resurrected. It is eternal death. God does not need to torture anyone. He has no desire to do that. No law of God required torture as a punishment....death was enough.
Some believe that the dead have a conscious spirit existence in Sheol/Hades as in the story of The Rich Man and Lazarus. I think that is a parable meant to be symbolic and not physical.

I don't think our dead loved ones can presently see us from heaven.
Indeed...some believe that Lazarus and the rich man are real characters, but they symbolize those who were alive in Jesus’ day. The rich man pictured the Pharisees living the high life, whilst the poor beggar went without, hoping for a few crumbs to fall from the rich man’s table. The beggar pictured the lost sheep, to whom Jesus was sent, sadly neglected by their religious shepherds. They changed places in their symbolic “death” to their former status.....the rich man in anguish at being exposed by Jesus as frauds and hypocrites, and the beggar gaining favour with God because of accepting his Messiah and were finally fed the food needed to nourish and sustain them spiritually. (The bosom of Abraham pictured favour with God)

Taken literally, it is clearly ridiculous. Can heaven and hell be within speaking distance to one another....and can a drop of water on a man’s finger would quench the thirst of someone in flames???

Another Lazarus was not a parable but a real person. He was the brother of Mary and Martha. He was dead for 4 days (John 11:39). I don't think he would appreciate Jesus resurrecting him while he was enjoying his time in heaven.
Yes, Jesus called Lazarus from his tomb, not from heaven. How would it have been doing him a favour calling him back to a sinful state on earth if he was now a perfect spirit being in heaven? Where did Jesus say Lazarus was? (John 11:11-14) He said he was “sleeping”.
A “soul” in the Bible is any earthly creature that breathes. That includes animals and humans who breathe the same air and die the same death...(Eccl 3:19-20)....they stop breathing, which deprives the body cells of oxygen and the organs which depend on that oxygen, begin to cease functioning. First the brain, which is the control centre of the whole body, loses function and the organs that sustain breathing stop working...the lungs and the heart stops pumping oxygenated cells around the body and it dies. The “soul” in scripture is the whole person. Souls are completely mortal. They depend on external things to keep living, but once these things are withheld, (oxygen, food or water) the soul dies. (Ezekiel 18:4)

The “spirit” in man is a whole other topic....this word is also associated with breathing. When Adam started breathing, he “became a living soul”......God began his life by giving him breath (spirit) But this word in the Bible doesn’t have only one meaning.

The Hebrew word ruʹach and the Greek word pneuʹma, often translated “spirit,” have a number of meanings. All of them refer to that which is invisible to human sight and gives evidence of force in motion. The Hebrew and Greek words are used with reference to (1) wind, (2) the life-force in earthly creatures, (3) the impelling force that issues from a person’s figurative heart and causes him to say and do things in a certain way, (4) inspired expressions originating from an invisible source, (5) spirit persons, and (6) God’s Holy Spirit or his power.
 

Aunty Jane

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The Jews had no belief in an afterlife....no immortal soul. That idea was borrowed from paganism and this belief permeates all false religion. It is what the devil told as his first lie...”you surely will not die”...
He has been promoting it since the beginning, but it is not true. He altered what God said was a penalty, into something that was a gateway to another life....twisting scripture to reinforce it.

Adam was not told that he was given a “soul”, but rather that he “became a living soul” when God started him breathing.
The first mention of death in the garden of Eden was connected to disobedience....there was no ‘natural’ cause of death, because God did not create humans to die. We alone had the opportunity to live forever in mortal flesh, here on this carefully prepared planet....as long as the first humans obeyed their Creator, access to “the tree of life” was a guarantee that life would not end. (Gen 3:22-24)

What did God tell Adam about death?
Gen 3:17-19....
“And to Adam he said: “Because you listened to your wife’s voice and ate from the tree concerning which I gave you this command, ‘You must not eat from it,’ cursed is the ground on your account. In pain you will eat its produce all the days of your life. 18 It will grow thorns and thistles for you, and you must eat the vegetation of the field. 19 In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.”

Adam would simply go back to where he came from.....there was no mention of an afterlife of any sort...no heaven or hell.....just a return to the elements of the earth from which he was created.

This brings us to the words “hades” and “Gehenna”.....both rendered as “Hell” in many English translations. But what do these words mean in Greek? Therein lies the truth.....”hades” is the common grave of all mankind. It’s Hebrew equivalent is “sheol” which to an ancient Jew, simply meant being buried in the place where all the dead go....in a grave or tomb. There is no conscious existence in sheol. (Eccl 9:5, 10)

Those in hades were to be released, regardless of whether they were “righteous or unrighteous”, (John 5:28-29; Acts 24:15, Rev 20:13-14) by means of a resurrection, which is a restoration of life, not a continuation of it in another form, in another place, invisible to those on earth.

“Gehenna” OTOH, was a death from which no one is resurrected. Jesus sentenced the wicked Pharisees of his day to “the judgment of Gehenna” (Matt 23:33)....the Jews knew exactly what he meant, and this is “the lake of fire”, which is called “the second death” because it is a death from which no return is possible. (Rev 21:8)

Jesus said...”And do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather, fear him who can destroy both soul and body in Ge·henʹna.”

Those in Gehenna are “DESTROYED”, not sent to a place of eternal fiery torment. God has no need to punish people eternally...what purpose would it serve? All punishments under the Law given to Israel were designed to fit the crime committed. Death was the highest penalty....no penalty involved torture. Those guilty of capital crimes simply forfeited their lives....end of story. God knows who is in hades and who is in Gehenna, and his justice is perfect.
 

quietthinker

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With all due respect, I don't think the Bible indulges in theoretical physics, eg wormholes. A lot of people speak of the relativity of time without a clue of what that means, experientially.

Therefore, I think Jesus intended to tell the thief that he would instantly be with him after death *that day.* It was not a theoretical day aligned with a future day in which Christ returns. It was *that particular day* in which he died.

Once we are created, we are subject to the rules of creation, involving time and space. The thief is in a literal place and at a literal time. The time he entered paradise was on that calendar day, not associated with the day of Christ's return.

The thief wanted to be with Jesus when his Kingdom comes, which would be distant in the future. But Jesus corrected that by saying he would instantly be with him following death. This would naturally lead to participation in the Kingdom when it finally does come.
Where the (we) place the coma is informed by our view of the state of the dead. Placing it after 'today,' is consistent with the context and the rest of scripture. Placing it before ', today' supports the introduced pagan view of the immortality of the soul and creates an inconsistency with other utterances within scripture.
 

Aunty Jane

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@TonyChanYT if you read the account of the raising of Lazarus you will see what his sisters believed about death.
John 11:17-24...
“When Jesus arrived, he found that Lazʹa·rus had already been in the tomb for four days. 18 Now Bethʹa·ny was near Jerusalem, about two miles away. 19 And many of the Jews had come to Martha and Mary to console them concerning their brother. 20 When Martha heard that Jesus was coming, she went to meet him; but Mary kept sitting at home. 21 Martha then said to Jesus: “Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died. 22 Yet even now I know that whatever you ask God for, God will give you.” 23 Jesus said to her: “Your brother will rise.” 24 Martha said to him: “I know he will rise in the resurrection on the last day.”

When was “the resurrection on the last day”? What did Martha say was her belief about death? Lazarus was in his tomb...he had not gone anywhere. He was sleeping. (John 11:11-14)
 

Randy Kluth

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Where the (we) place the coma is informed by our view of the state of the dead. Placing it after 'today,' is consistent with the context and the rest of scripture. Placing it before ', today' supports the introduced pagan view of the immortality of the soul and creates an inconsistency with other utterances within scripture.
I don't really understand that. You think the "immortality of the soul" is pagan? And I'm not sure where a comma can determine how "today" is being used? It appears that Jesus is correcting the notion that the thief would have to be "remembered," because he would continue with Jesus through the process of death and remain with him until the Kingdom comes.

Luke 23.42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.”
43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”


For Jesus to indicate he was telling the man something today, as if he had to be reminded what day he was speaking, is an obvious truism, which would have no place if there is an alternative explanation. So instead of saying that he was saying something at a given time, which is obvious to all, he would more likely be saying that the man would be somewhere "today," since Jesus was correcting an imperfect notion that the man would have to wait until the Kingdom comes.

Paul also addresses this issue when he said that his departure would mean coming immediately into the presence of the Lord--not waiting until the Kingdom comes.

Phil 1.23 I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far.