TODAY you will be with me in paradise

[MatthewG]

Because of the victory of Christ, the holding places of faithful and faithless people who had yet to have their sin to be paid for was away from God. It's a place many associate with Hell, or the Parable of Lazarus. A place of always wanting is beyond the chasm; where Abraham talks to the rich man. Lazarus was at rest, where the rich many were in what seemed like a state of unrest. To me, there is Paradise, Abrahams's bosom. There is the outside of Paradise, and there was also a place that is said to have angels chained in prison, awaiting judgment. Jesus again and his victory over sin, hell, death, Satan, When Hell (Sheol was dumped out), all those that had died from Genesis, and up until the point of the wrath of God has been administered to Israel. They were judged based on the actions they had done, before and placed where they were to go, from the ending of the Age - which brings in a new age, (Revelation 21-22), the place once known as Hell, is now done away with. Replaced with what? The Heavenly Kingdom established by the Lord Yeshua, now brings in the new age of fulfillment, in which today, people when they die are resurrected, be faithful human beings, or unfaithful human beings. Yahava, will give them their reward and gift them with a spiritual body which will be pleasing and good from him, (I suppose to be it condemned, or even of life.) Hell is replaced as it was a separation from God because of sin before sin was paid for. John mentions in Revelation 22, that outside of the kingdom are several categories which are covered there that are outside of the Kingdom and it seems that the lake of fire, while it was made for the devil and his angels and not human beings. Souls may take part in the fire that is from Yahava, and perhaps those outside, are able to come into the kingdom after suffering again loss in the afterlife, by a willingly choice. There is no more 'chasm which is impossible to cross'. there is a replacement 'The gates of the Kingdom never close.' However many people always state that common phrase "there is no second chance." While that may be true in the aspect of having built a spiritual treasury while here on earth, rather than building on the earthly, and not at all any spiritual treasury, receiving a resurrected condemned body that perhaps is not equipped enough to even bear the fire of Yahava.

 

[quietthinker]

I don't really understand that. You think the "immortality of the soul" is pagan? And I'm not sure where a comma can determine how "today" is being used? It appears that Jesus is correcting the notion that the thief would have to be "remembered," because he would continue with Jesus through the process of death and remain with him until the Kingdom comes.

Luke 23.42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.”
43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

For Jesus to indicate he was telling the man something today, as if he had to be reminded what day he was speaking, is an obvious truism, which would have no place if there is an alternative explanation. So instead of saying that he was saying something at a given time, which is obvious to all, he would more likely be saying that the man would be somewhere "today," since Jesus was correcting an imperfect notion that the man would have to wait until the Kingdom comes.

Paul also addresses this issue when he said that his departure would mean coming immediately into the presence of the Lord--not waiting until the Kingdom comes.

Phil 1.23 I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far.

It is helpful to understand Hebrew word and or thought form. Understanding it indicates that he is telling the thief today, that he will be with him in paradise.....and when and where is paradise? In the Earth made new at the end of the millennium as mentioned in Revelation 21:1-5

 

[Waiting on him]

Luke 23:


i.e., the second coming on the last day of the current universe


This criminal died on his last day on Earth. When a person dies, time stops with respect to him (e.g., gravitational time dilation). When he is resurrected, he will be with Jesus in paradise. To him, it will be the same day: today, i.e., the last day of the old universe. From his perspective and God's perspective, there wasn't even any waiting. His today is the same as his last day on the old earth and is the same as the last day of the universe after he is resurrected, John 6:


In terms of physics, a wormhole (Einstein-Rosen bridge) is a structure that connects two black holes. It is possible that an object that falls into one end of a wormhole can travel through it and come out at the other end at a different point in space-time.

Some believe that the dead have a conscious spirit existence in Sheol/Hades as in the story of The Rich Man and Lazarus. I think that is a parable meant to be symbolic and not physical.

I don't think our dead loved ones can presently see us from heaven.

Another Lazarus was not a parable but a real person. He was the brother of Mary and Martha. He was dead for 4 days (John 11:39). I don't think he would appreciate Jesus resurrecting him while he was enjoying his time in heaven.

See also What is a human soul?.

I prefer the story told of Lazarus and Abraham in Genesis. When I try and analyze the story told by Jesus in the first century.


Looking at it through the information given in Genesis gives me a greater perspective. Since this debate is about time- maybe a good place to begin?

 

[Waiting on him]

verse?

I have a few versus for you


Luke 16:22 KJV
And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

John 1:18 KJV
No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.


Have a look at the account in Genesis.

 

[ScottA]

Luke 23:


i.e., the second coming on the last day of the current universe


This criminal died on his last day on Earth. When a person dies, time stops with respect to him (e.g., gravitational time dilation). When he is resurrected, he will be with Jesus in paradise. To him, it will be the same day: today, i.e., the last day of the old universe. From his perspective and God's perspective, there wasn't even any waiting. His today is the same as his last day on the old earth and is the same as the last day of the universe after he is resurrected, John 6:


In terms of physics, a wormhole (Einstein-Rosen bridge) is a structure that connects two black holes. It is possible that an object that falls into one end of a wormhole can travel through it and come out at the other end at a different point in space-time.

Some believe that the dead have a conscious spirit existence in Sheol/Hades as in the story of The Rich Man and Lazarus. I think that is a parable meant to be symbolic and not physical.

I don't think our dead loved ones can presently see us from heaven.

Another Lazarus was not a parable but a real person. He was the brother of Mary and Martha. He was dead for 4 days (John 11:39). I don't think he would appreciate Jesus resurrecting him while he was enjoying his time in heaven.

See also What is a human soul?.

A better understanding of Time vs. Eternity, rather than the would-be worldly mechanical or scientific terms, is to realize that Time is a complete illusion. That Time is simply a created media by which God reveals all things to all included, "but each one in his own order."

In other words, which is actually real? The storytime time of a story that is previously written then read after the fact, or the time of the author? Which in this case, with God being the Author--the answer is not Time at all, but the eternity of God.

One thing is for sure: It's time for the renewing of our minds to view things from God's perspective and by His terms, rather than by the terms of the created (made up) world. Incidentally, I said "made up", but the correct term for defining this world and its purpose--God's purpose...is "make believe." Made that they might believe. That is the purpose of its creation.

 

[quietthinker]

I prefer the story told of Lazarus and Abraham in Genesis. When I try and analyze the story told by Jesus in the first century.


Looking at it through the information given in Genesis gives me a greater perspective. Since this debate is about time- maybe a good place to begin?

why do you think Jesus told that parable?

 

[Waiting on him]

why do you think Jesus told that parable?

I believe it is a story he is telling of himself.

The reason being is that in the account in Genesis Lazarus is the first servant in Abrahams house.

 

[RR144]

This criminal died on his last day on Earth. When a person dies, time stops with respect to him (e.g., gravitational time dilation). When he is resurrected, he will be with Jesus in paradise ...

“Truly, I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise,” Luke 23:43 (CSB). Our Lord did not go to Paradise that day but went to the tomb. He was raised on the third day. There are no commas in the Greek text. Punctuation was invented around 1515 AD. Placing the comma after “today” clarifies the text’s meaning. “Truly, I tell you today (now), you will be with me in Paradise”–at My second coming, when the Kingdom of Heaven shall be established in the earth.

 

[Waiting on him]

“Truly, I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise,” Luke 23:43 (CSB). Our Lord did not go to Paradise that day but went to the tomb. He was raised on the third day. There are no commas in the Greek text. Punctuation was invented around 1515 AD. Placing the comma after “today” clarifies the text’s meaning. “Truly, I tell you today (now), you will be with me in Paradise”–at My second coming, when the Kingdom of Heaven shall be established in the earth.

According to the apostle John Jesus was already in the bosom of the Father.

 

[RR144]

According to the apostle John Jesus was already in the bosom of the Father.

Can you show me where?

 

[Waiting on him]

Can you show me where?

John 1:18 KJV
No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
John 10:30 KJV
I and my Father are one.

 

[Waiting on him]

What if Jesus when he made that statement hanging on the cross was already in paradise/the bosom of the Father?

Just something to think about

 

[quietthinker]

I believe it is a story he is telling of himself.

The reason being is that in the account in Genesis Lazarus is the first servant in Abrahams house.

Jesus tells this parable in response to the Pharisees deriding him. They boasted in their knowledge of their scriptures yet they didn't hear what they said. The punch line of the parable is in vs 31 of Luke Ch. 16 ie, 'if they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead'.

The parable was a prophecy re the attitude of the Pharisees because they rejected him even though he rose from the dead.

Jesus was using a myth in circulation at the time to make his point. He was not giving a discourse on the state of the dead or how it works in the perceived netherworld......and to say it again, Jesus used this myth to make his point re their rejection of him.

 

[Waiting on him]

Jesus tells this parable in response to the Pharisees deriding him. They boasted in their knowledge of their scriptures yet they didn't hear what they said. The punch line of the parable is in vs 31 of Luke Ch. 16 ie, 'if they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead'.

The parable was a prophecy re the attitude of the Pharisees because they rejected him even though he rose from the dead.

Jesus was using a myth in circulation at the time to make his point. He was not giving a discourse on the state of the dead or how it works in the perceived netherworld......and to say it again, Jesus used this myth to make his point re their rejection of him.

Why do you believe Jesus used these specific names Abraham and Eliezer?

 

[quietthinker]

Why do you believe Jesus used these specific names Abraham and Eliezer?

Abraham, because it was used in the myth.....a common Hebrew name.

 

[Waiting on him]

Abraham, because it was used in the myth.....a common Hebrew name.

Okay, why Eliezer?

 

[quietthinker]

Okay, why Eliezer?

The name Lazarus is Greek from the Old Testament Hebrew name Eliezer

 

[Brakelite]

With all due respect, I don't think the Bible indulges in theoretical physics, eg wormholes. A lot of people speak of the relativity of time without a clue of what that means, experientially.

Therefore, I think Jesus intended to tell the thief that he would instantly be with him after death *that day.* It was not a theoretical day aligned with a future day in which Christ returns. It was *that particular day* in which he died.

Once we are created, we are subject to the rules of creation, involving time and space. The thief is in a literal place and at a literal time. The time he entered paradise was on that calendar day, not associated with the day of Christ's return.

The thief wanted to be with Jesus when his Kingdom comes, which would be distant in the future. But Jesus corrected that by saying he would instantly be with him following death. This would naturally lead to participation in the Kingdom when it finally does come.

Except Jesus wasn't in heaven that day. He was still dead. He didn't go to the Father until after the resurrection. The comma placed before the word 'today' was not inspired. It was placed in there by some translator in the middle ages whose mind was already informed by the popular concept of denial of the resurrection.

 

[RR144]

John 1:18 KJV
No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
John 10:30 KJV
I and my Father are one.

I'm sorry, what does this have to do with the topic or what I initially posted?

 

[Waiting on him]

I'm sorry, what does this have to do with the topic or what I initially posted?

The fact that God was in him reconciling Himself to the world, to me this implies Jesus was already in the bosom/paradise of the Father.