TODAY you will be with me in paradise

[TonyChanYT]

We don't know when that thief died on his own cross.

What do you mean by "on his own cross"?

 

[Randy Kluth]

Yes...way outside.

Sorry to hear that. Yea, the church, the govt, everybody is corrupt. Kill off the people, and let the animals live, right?

There is no conscious part of man that leaves the body at death.....no scripture says so.

Actually Scriptures do say so. Paul said to depart and be with the Lord is far better.

When the body dies so does the soul, but the spirit is the “breath” that animates us....when the spirit goes out (like a light or a candle goes out)....it does not consciously live on....all consciousness ceases. (Eccl 9:5, 6, 10)

Those passages are not speaking of the eternal soul. It's speaking of our existence in these mortal bodies. Once those bodies are dead, our consciousness of life in this world goes with them.

No scripture teaches this. It is an assumption based on a lie....because when we die, we are actually dead....death is the opposite of life. Eternal death is the opposite of eternal life.
There never was a “heaven or hell” scenario. It was only ever “life or death”.

Hell simply means the grave, the place where souls go before final judgment. That place will be discarded in the resurrection.

His spirit left his body with his last exhalation. That which animates the mortal body ceases, and the soul dies. The spirit is not the soul and the soul is not a spirit....they mean two entirely different things.

Actually, they're used virtually synonymously in the Bible. The spirit, which animates a person when joined to the body, becomes a "soul." So the breath of life is the substance that gives life, and when joined to a body becomes a living personality.

Why would Jesus be raised with the wounds of his execution, when God had the power to heal him?

The idea was to show not just God's healing power, as Jesus had done many times before, but also to show that resurrection was possible to those still in their mortal bodies. But more importantly, it was to show the need, beyond our mortal bodies, to possess immortal bodies.

That was the original idea in the garden of Eden. Man was mortal and had the opportunity to partake of the Tree of Life.

Why were these wounds only visible at the times when he had to convince a doubting Thomas?

Jesus had to ascend to heaven to obtain his immortal body, which is now scar-free. The wounds, now healed, were to show people like Thomas that resurrection is possible. Jesus was raised from the dead to show us mortals that we can be raised from the dead, even though we're sinners. Jesus was showing us the grace involved in forgiving us, that we will be raised like him from the dead.

If his disciples did not always recognise him and no mention is made of his poor physical condition except on those occasions when he wanted to convince the doubters, can you explain why his body was not a sad and sorry sight on all the occasions when people saw him? The disciples who conversed with him on the road did not recognise him....(Luke 24:28-35) Surely if his battered body was the in the same condition as when he died three days earlier, they would have said something about that? Jesus was cruelly tortured before his execution.

For one thing, men had a lot of facial hair back then. It was not always apparent who was who, when their normal attire changed. Jesus was healed from death after his resurrection, and was *not* in a "poor physical condition."

Philip was? Where will I find that in the Bible? I know Elijah was.....

Acts 8.39

This was a demonstration of what faith can do.....Peter also walked on the water until he doubted....only then did he begin to sink and was saved by his Lord. This was before Jesus death and resurrection. (Matt 14:23-31)
Jesus’ abilities were those of a normal human being until he presented himself for baptism...only then was he anointed or baptized with the holy spirit so as to perform miracles.

I don't know that. It isn't said.

The 120 disciples in the upper room in Jerusalem received holy spirit and were thereafter able to perform miracles.
But Jesus was not resurrected in the flesh, as Peter said...he was resurrected “in the spirit” or in spirit form as were the chosen elect going to be when he returned to take them “home”.......the mortal would then put on immortality....but that is only for the elect, not for those who will be their subjects on earth. They will be resurrected as Lazarus was....physically returned to life, and reunited with his family. (John 11:11-14)

Sounds like you've packed your own personal theology? To be "resurrected in the Spirit" would mean for me that a person is "physically resurrected in the flesh by the power of the Holy Spirit."

You were arguing that Jesus must have had an immortal body after resurrection because he could do miraculous things in his body. My point is that Jesus and others had already done miraculous things in their mortal bodies, without having to have immortal bodies.

Again you infer consciousness when the Bible does not speak of consciousness after death....just the opposite. (Psalm 6:5; Psalm 115:17)

Adam and Eve were never created to be immortal. They were offered “everlasting life” but it was conditional.
“Everlasting life” for humans was dependent upon access to the only source of that life.....denying access to “the tree of life” meant certain death. They were never meant to be immortal, but obedience to God would have kept them living....forever. (Gen 3:22-24)

Since God has expressly said His purpose for Man is to live in perpetuity, and does not want us to die, but to rather have immortal bodies, I would assume that God's purpose was for us to be immortal.

If they were immortal, death could not have overtaken them, and the death penalty would have been meaningless.

Adam and Eve had to partake of the Tree of Life--a conscious moral choice, if they were to obtain immortal bodies.

If Jesus was God incarnate, he was already immortal and hence he could not die to save humanity.

Immortality is not just a matter of being Divine, or of living in perpetuity. Rather, it is a matter of having indestructible bodies, which all men can have if they choose for Jesus, who has the power to endow us with immortality.

Yes, he legally qualified for immortal life after his earthly mission was successfully completed.....it came with the “authority” given to him by his Father.....something he did not have before. (Matt 28:18)

Jesus' "requirement" to save us was self-imposed, since he was Divine. He imposed upon himself the necessity of producing a way to redeem us from eternal separation from himself. And that way was to put up with our sins until we either choose for him or against him when given a 2nd chance.

Jesus always had the authority as God to do whatever he wanted. But he imposed upon himself the necessity of showing human obedience to the divine Father. In doing so he carried out what God always could do, but chose to do it in the way He wanted to do it, namely by giving us a 2nd chance.

Indeed....Rev 21:2-4 guarantees it. No more suffering, pain or grief.....mankind will, for the first time, be governed by God’s kingdom under the 1000 year rulership of his son, to restore all that Adam lost for us. Christ’s sacrifice makes all of that possible.

Yes

 

[Gabriel _Arch]

What do you mean by "on his own cross"?

Immanuel died that same day. The thief was beside him on his own cross.

 

[TonyChanYT]

Immanuel died that same day. The thief was beside him on his own cross.

The thief died soon after the soldiers broke his legs.

 

[Gabriel _Arch]

The thief died soon after the soldiers broke his legs.

Would that be supposition? We don't read of the thief after his exchange with Immanuel.

The Romans enjoyed inflicting torture on their victims. They didn't break the legs of the crucified on a regular basis.
Sometimes, victims would hang on their cross for days, succumbing slowly to suffocation.

 

[TonyChanYT]

We don't read of the thief after his exchange with Immanuel.

31Since it was the day of Preparation, and so that the bodies would not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken and that they might be taken away. 32So the soldiers came and broke the legs of the first, and of the other who had been crucified with him.

 

[Gabriel _Arch]

31Since it was the day of Preparation, and so that the bodies would not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken and that they might be taken away. 32So the soldiers came and broke the legs of the first, and of the other who had been crucified with him.

The first, and the others? There was but one,single,other one.

 

[Brakelite]

Several questions here. The spirit is, I think, an animating force that becomes a soul, a personality, when joined to a body. Afterwards, the soul may become unclothed from its body, to be re-clothed in a new body. So yes, the spirit, or soul, of a man survives the death of the body and is destined to obtain a new immortal body.

The spirit is indeed an animating force... It is the breath that gives life to the body. Pneuma, from which we get the word pneumatic tyres, drills, press, etc. Spirit and soul are 2 distinct things.
Note how the spirit of God inspired Moses to describe the creation of man...
KJV Genesis 2:7
7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Man became a living soul after the breath was given the body. Neither the spirit nor the body were independent living entities on their own. Death is simply the reverse of creation.
KJV Ecclesiastes 12:5-7
5 ....because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets:
6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.
7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave
it.
Does the spirit become an independent living entity, or is it merely the same as it was when God first gave it, the breath of life, which once separated from the body, causes the death of man, the death of the "living soul", for as Ezekiel says,
KJV Ezekiel 18:4
4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

However, the righteous obtain with their immortal bodies Eternal Life. As such, they enter into a blessed state of Paradise with God. The ungodly, however, are separated from God by their own choice, though God places them where they need to be to keep living and serving him in some capacity. We would not call it "blessed" because the presence of the Lord is for them somewhat distant, though still necessarily connected.

So in other words, you are saying sinners are immortal. That only the righteous receive immortality as a gift, but sinners are naturally immortal and cannot die? Very confusing.

In the event where King Saul consulted the witch of Endor, Samuel's spirit appeared. It looked like Samuel, but was obviously different.

Eccl 3.21 Who knows if the human spirit rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?”

1 Sam 28.13 The king said to her, “Don’t be afraid. What do you see?”
The woman said, “I see a ghostly figure coming up out of the earth.”
14 “What does he look like?” he asked.
“An old man wearing a robe is coming up,” she said.
Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground.

As Jane said. God forbade Samuel from talking with Saul when he was alive, but now at the request of a witch, He may talk? If you believe the dead can talk with the living, you are setting yourself up for all manner of evil deceptions in the last days when demons will impersonate dead people with far more openness after the holy Spirit is withdrawn from the earth.
Also, the witch saw the demon come up... Would Samuel come up? Or come down?

The Bible seems to indicate that true "life" is defined as something greater than simple consciousness, that life after death continues to exist after death. Natural life begins when a soul is joined to a body. Hence, the departed soul, though still conscious and living when the body is dead, needs to be resurrected and re-joined to a body.

Seems to indicate... You are guessing. You should take the scriptures at face value and not read into them what you have heard and been taught by others. Does God need you to survive as a spirit in order to resurrect you? Can He not remember what you were like? Where you were buried? Where you sleep?
Quote...Natural life begins when a soul is joined to a body. Wrong. Not the way Genesis describes creation.

 

[Brakelite]

Paul said to depart and be with the Lord is far better.

Allow me to address this.

KJV 2 Corinthians 5:1-8
Paul tells us of 2 houses, 2 states. Earthly, and heavenly.
1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

We all desire the heavenly yes?
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

He repeats himself...

4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

And states why he wants it so badly...

4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

The holy Spirit is the pledge, a sign of the promise of life.

5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

Why is Paul so confident?

6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

And Paul repeats his desire to be with the Lord...

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

With the subject fully before us, let us determine the meaning of the terms Paul uses in the text. What does he mean by the “earthly house” and the “heavenly house”? By being “clothed upon” and “unclothed”? By “mortality” being “swallowed up of life”? By being “absent from the body” and “present with the Lord”?

The apostle answers all of these questions for us. In verse 6, he defines “our earthly house” as being “at home in the body.” The chief characteristic of this house is that it may be “dissolved.” In other words, it is mortal. This earthly house is, therefore, our mortal body or our present mortal condition. This fact appears too obvious for further comment.
The house from heaven is “eternal” or immortal and represents the state of immortality that awaits the redeemed beyond the resurrection. Here is where the greatest misunderstanding enters the picture. Some have thought that the “house from heaven” is put on at the moment of death. But the apostle clearly spells out the TIME when he will put on immortality.
Notice how he explains when “mortality is swallowed up of life,” in Romans 8:22, 23, “…ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.” This verse in Romans is a perfect, striking parallel to the verses in 2 Corinthians 5:1-8 and clarifies when we shall be clothed with that immortality. Notice the similarity of language and thought:

To the Corinthians Paul Wrote:

“We... in this tabernacle do groan.”

“Given to us the earnest of the Spirit.”

“Earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven.”

To the Romans Paul Wrote:

“We groan within ourselves …”

“Have the firstfruits of the Spirit.”

“Earnest expectation… waiting for the redemption of our body.”

These two scriptures are speaking of the same experience. The ultimate object in both cases is to change this mortal body into the immortal body and to change this “earthly house” into the “house eternal in the heavens.” Please notice that in one verse Paul was “earnestly desiring to be clothed” with his house from heaven, and in the other verse his “earnest expectation” was the “redemption of the body.”

The comparison proves that this clothing from heaven takes place at the “redemption of the body.” Paul adds the final clarification in 1 Corinthians 15:5 1-53 when he again describes the TIME this change takes place: “…we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump… this mortal must put on immortality.” In other words, even though death should dissolve this mortal body, Paul makes it very clear that we do not put on the house from heaven (immortality) until the coming of Jesus and the redemption of the body. This is also established by the repeated references to the “naked” or “unclothed” state.

What is meant by the term “unclothed”? Notice that Paul specifically declared that he did not desire to be naked or unclothed. We can be certain, then, that the unclothed state did not involve being with the Lord, since Paul did not desire it. In fact, the apostle made reference to being clothed with only two houses, the earthly and heavenly. In the unclothed state, he was neither in the earthly body nor clothed with the heavenly. That leaves only one possible explanation. To be “unclothed” or “naked” is the condition of death that is the interlude between the dissolving of the earthly house and putting on the heavenly.

Some have claimed that the house which we have “eternal in the heavens” is the immortal soul with which we immediately enter into heaven when the earthly house is dissolved. But this could not be. Notice the impossibility of such an arrangement. If the soul inhabited that heavenly “house” immediately at death, what happens when it must inhabit the immortalized body after the resurrection takes place? It is in the glorified resurrection bodies that the righteous dwell with God for eternity. This would involve those souls leaving the “house eternal in the heavens” which they inhabited at death, and going into the redeemed bodies at the resurrection. Then what happens to the house they vacated? Are the saints to have “houses to rent”? Moreover, this view introduces something that Paul never mentioned; for here we have THREE HOUSES, but Paul’s language allows for only TWO. And one would have to be abandoned according to the popular view. Would it stand abandoned and fall into ruin? All this is unscriptural and absurd. Such a view is an impossibility.

The fact is that Paul is not talking here about the soul at all. He does not even once mention the soul in the passage or its context. He is simply contrasting the present life with the far more glorious life to come in heaven. He did not look forward to the sleep of death (being “unclothed”) when he would not be with the Lord, but he did long for the redemption of the body when he would be clothed with the “house eternal in the heavens.” While still in this life he would be clothed with a mortal body; and after mortality is “swallowed up of life,” he would have a heavenly, immortal body. But whether in the earthly tabernacles or house from heaven he would still have a body. Nowhere does Paul separate a soul from the body. It is either a body on this earth and being absent from the Lord, or it is a redeemed body in heaven and being present with the Lord.

All the above is entirely consistent with the core beliefs of the early church and scripture, that the true hope of the Christian was not to immediately enter heaven at death, but rather looking forward to the resurrection to take place at the second coming of Jesus.
It wasn't until a few centuries after Christ, and the introduction of core Greek philosophy into western Christianity that began with Pythagoras, and then with his student Plato, that concepts of the natural immortality of man entered the church. But the church knew the the righteous were to go to heaven, so what to do with the unrighteous? Where would they go? Voila...hell.
Jesus Himself said, explicitly and clearly and succinctly,
KJV Genesis 3:22-24
22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: (God never intended, designed, nor destined sinful man to live for ever. The wages of sin is death. The soul that sinneth, it shall die).
23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

 

[Randy Kluth]

The spirit is indeed an animating force... It is the breath that gives life to the body. Pneuma, from which we get the word pneumatic tyres, drills, press, etc. Spirit and soul are 2 distinct things.
Note how the spirit of God inspired Moses to describe the creation of man...
KJV Genesis 2:7
7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Man became a living soul after the breath was given the body. Neither the spirit nor the body were independent living entities on their own. Death is simply the reverse of creation.

Up until here I agreed with you. But I don't believe that "death is the reverse of creation." History runs in one direction only. Once the breath of life enters a human body, it becomes a living "soul," as you indicated. But that soul does not disintegrate or disappear upon separation of the life force from the body. Once a soul is created, a spiritual entity, it remains forever.

So in other words, you are saying sinners are immortal. That only the righteous receive immortality as a gift, but sinners are naturally immortal and cannot die? Very confusing.

Not quite. What I'm saying is that the Bible describes "immortality" differently with respect to believers than how the eternity of the soul and resurrection of the body are for unbelievers. In our sense of the term "immortal" yes--unbelievers are resurrected up in immortal bodies--they cannot die.

But the Bible describes the gift of immortal bodies for believers in a different way, indicating that they are prepared for living an eternity in God's Kingdom and in God's Presence. Unbelievers are some distance down the road from God's Presence, and a chasm away from the congregation of believers.

They are "immortal"--yes, but they do not have what's called "Eternal Life." They will live forever, but this is not called, in the Bible, "Eternal Life."

These are semantical differences in the Bible, and they are governed by context, and not necessarily by the particular words used.

As Jane said. God forbade Samuel from talking with Saul when he was alive, but now at the request of a witch, He may talk? If you believe the dead can talk with the living, you are setting yourself up for all manner of evil deceptions in the last days when demons will impersonate dead people with far more openness after the holy Spirit is withdrawn from the earth.
Also, the witch saw the demon come up... Would Samuel come up? Or come down?

It's possible the a demon impersonated Samuel, but if that was so, wouldn't the Bible have said that? A spirit "coming up" indicates a person "arises" out of a dead state, not having anything to do, necessarily, with coming out of Hades.

We do speak of going up to heaven to God (metaphorically), because He is "above the earth" in His omnipresence. However, where is "down?" Spirits and dead men do not live inside the planet. They do however get described as being in a prison of sorts when they are evil spirits. Nothing in this passage suggests this spirit is coming out of a prison.

Seems to indicate... You are guessing. You should take the scriptures at face value and not read into them what you have heard and been taught by others. Does God need you to survive as a spirit in order to resurrect you?

Yes, God would have to re-create our personality all over again if our souls died. Thankfully, our souls remain under the altar or elsewhere until its time to be resurrected. Revelation, 5th Seal.

 

[Randy Kluth]

What is meant by the term “unclothed”? Notice that Paul specifically declared that he did not desire to be naked or unclothed. We can be certain, then, that the unclothed state did not involve being with the Lord, since Paul did not desire it.

This isn't true, though it sounds very logical. Paul could love departing in death and appearing with God in glory, and still be dissatisfied that he was as yet not clothed with a new body. He enjoys the glorious presence of the Lord, and yet remains dissatisfied with his incomplete state. That is perfectly reasonable to me, if the context warrants it.

To be “unclothed” or “naked” is the condition of death that is the interlude between the dissolving of the earthly house and putting on the heavenly.

Of course, but that condition of death is reconciled by our presence with the Lord, who is the guarantee of our resurrection. We are not yet clothed with a new body when we die, but we are in the presence of Him who guarantees us that body.

Some have claimed that the house which we have “eternal in the heavens” is the immortal soul with which we immediately enter into heaven when the earthly house is dissolved.

This is not quite stated properly, from my pov. We do not yet enter into the full glory of our resurrection until the 2nd Coming. But upon death, we immediately enter into the presence of God, it being true that Jesus has already obtained for us a ticket to the resurrection to life.

We therefore get to be with God in heaven, but remain in an intermediate state of death. We at least partly agree, I think?

But this could not be. Notice the impossibility of such an arrangement. If the soul inhabited that heavenly “house” immediately at death, what happens when it must inhabit the immortalized body after the resurrection takes place? It is in the glorified resurrection bodies that the righteous dwell with God for eternity.

Our eternity in the presence of God begins in our intermediate state of physical death but retaining our life in the Spirit. Our souls are kept with God until the time for our resurrection at Christ's 2nd Coming.

This would involve those souls leaving the “house eternal in the heavens” which they inhabited at death, and going into the redeemed bodies at the resurrection. Then what happens to the house they vacated?

The house in the heavens Paul spoke of are not bodies created for souls in the intermediate state of death! That "house" Paul refers to is our immortal bodies, given us at the 2nd Coming! We do not vacate that house, nor will we ever vacate that house. It is by definition "immortal." We have no house at all in our intermediate state of death.

All the above is entirely consistent with the core beliefs of the early church and scripture, that the true hope of the Christian was not to immediately enter heaven at death, but rather looking forward to the resurrection to take place at the second coming of Jesus.

I don't believe so. I never heard of such a thing? Do you have any source material you wish to offer?

It wasn't until a few centuries after Christ, and the introduction of core Greek philosophy into western Christianity that began with Pythagoras, and then with his student Plato, that concepts of the natural immortality of man entered the church. But the church knew the the righteous were to go to heaven, so what to do with the unrighteous? Where would they go? Voila...hell.

So when you speak of the "core beliefs of the early church" you're really just referring to *your interpretation" of Scripture? ;) Sorry, brakelite--not good enough.

 

[TonyChanYT]

The first, and the others? There was but one,single,other one.

How many persons whose legs were broken?

 

[Gabriel _Arch]

How many persons whose legs were broken?

Two.

 

[TonyChanYT]

Two.

Who were they?

 

[Gabriel _Arch]

Who were they?

Read the New Testament. I think it will assist you in your time here to know what Christians are sharing with one another.

 

[TonyChanYT]

Read the New Testament. I think it will assist you in your time here to know what Christians are sharing with one another.

I am asking you to see if you know the answer:
Who were the two whose legs were broken?

See also Familiarize yourself with the whole Bible by daily reading

 

[Aunty Jane]

I am asking you to see if you know the answer:
Who were the two whose legs were broken?

See also Familiarize yourself with the whole Bible by daily reading

This is a fairly silly question IMO. It is common knowledge that there were only two others executed that day.

Luke 23:32-33.....
“32 Two other men, criminals, were also being led off to be executed with him. 33 And when they got to the place called Skull, they nailed him to the stake there alongside the criminals, one on his right and one on his left.”

John 19:31-33...
“Since it was the day of Preparation, so that the bodies would not remain on the torture stakes on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath day was a great one), the Jews asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken away. 32 So the soldiers came and broke the legs of the first man and those of the other man who was on a stake alongside him. 33 But on coming to Jesus, they saw that he was already dead, so they did not break his legs.”

Not exactly a question for scholars.....

 

[Aunty Jane]

All the above is entirely consistent with the core beliefs of the early church and scripture, that the true hope of the Christian was not to immediately enter heaven at death, but rather looking forward to the resurrection to take place at the second coming of Jesus.

I don't believe so. I never heard of such a thing? Do you have any source material you wish to offer?

@Randy Kluth .....This is what astounds me...that people are so ingrained with “church” doctrine that they have no idea what Jesus taught about the condition of the dead.
The Jews did not gain their belief in a conscious part of man that departs at death from their scripture....as you may know, their history was hardly one of obedience and sticking to God’s word. They continually adopted and practised the false religious ideas from the pagan nations around them....something God told the NOT to do and for which he punished them.

When Jesus raised his friend Lazarus, where was he? Did Jesus say that he was conscious somewhere? Was he in a better place, waiting for a reunion with his resurrected body? NO! Jesus said he was “sleeping”. (John 11:11-14) If he was “sleeping”, was he conscious? Are you conscious when you sleep? (Psalm 115:17)
Where did his sisters think he had gone?

John 11:17-23....
“When Jesus arrived, he found that Lazʹa·rus had already been in the tomb for four days. 18 Now Bethʹa·ny was near Jerusalem, about two miles away. 19 And many of the Jews had come to Martha and Mary to console them concerning their brother. 20 When Martha heard that Jesus was coming, she went to meet him; but Mary kept sitting at home. 21 Martha then said to Jesus: “Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died. 22 Yet even now I know that whatever you ask God for, God will give you.” 23 Jesus said to her: “Your brother will rise.”......he did not say that he had already risen in spirit form, or that it was merely his body in the tomb......if he was in a better place, what was to point of bringing him back to this sinful life, only to die again?

What was Martha’s response there?

“Martha said to him: “I know he will rise in the resurrection on the last day.”

The resurrection was to take place in the future...”on the last day”, during Christ’s thousand year reign.....this is not a reuniting of an existing conscious spirit that has been waiting in some “holding tank” for centuries, twiddling their thumbs till the kingdom was to “come”...”the resurrection on the last day” is the actual raising of the dead who have been in sheol/hades sleeping peacefully, unaware of the passage of time.....death is a hiatus between this life and the promised resurrection in the new world to come. This is what Jews believed from their scripture. Jesus was Jewish and taught from Jewish scripture. Belief in an immortal soul is entirely pagan.

Immortality of the soul was NOT a Bible teaching. (Eccl 9:5-6, 10) It was adopted like a lost puppy by the apostate Jews, and also by the early church, which was also apostate by that time, as Jesus had foretold. The Jews were never taught that God was three......he was “one”. (Deut 6:4) There was no “immortal soul”, just a future resurrection under God’s Kingdom. (John 5:28-29) And the dead were only in one of two places....not “heaven or hell”.....but in either “hades or Gehenna”....in neither place are they conscious.

You can get released from hades but not from Gehenna, which is a death from which no resurrection is possible.....it is the “second death”....eternal death. In order to torture the wicked forever, they would have to be alive forever.....but eternal life is promised only to the righteous. If there is no immortal soul, there is no need to invent places for them to go.

Unless you are familiar with original Jewish belief, you can take what the early “Christian” church taught as gospel....but we need to understand what Jesus said about the “wheat and the weeds”.
He and his apostles foretold that an apostasy would occur in Christianity, just as it did in Judaism....and by the very same means....corrupted men were easily led off the path of truth by God’s adversary.

If what those in Christendom have been led to believe is not the truth, and never was....where does that leave the vast majority of “Christians” today? Jesus already told us....

“Go in through the narrow gate, because broad is the gate and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are going in through it; 14 whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are finding it. “Be on the watch for the false prophets who come to you in sheep’s covering, but inside they are ravenous wolves. 16 By their fruits you will recognize them. Never do people gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles, do they? 17 Likewise, every good tree produces fine fruit, but every rotten tree produces worthless fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear worthless fruit, nor can a rotten tree produce fine fruit. 19 Every tree not producing fine fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Really, then, by their fruits you will recognize those men.”

What good fruitage has ever come from the divided and bickering churches of Christendom? She has always supported the world’s bloodshed. (Isaiah 1:15, John 17:16; John 18:36)

God’s spirit unites his worshippers...it does not divide them except to separate the “wheat” from the “weeds” and the “sheep” from the “goats”. They will be at peace when everyone else is at war. (2 Peter 3:11-14)

 

[Randy Kluth]

When Jesus raised his friend Lazarus, where was he? Did Jesus say that he was conscious somewhere? Was he in a better place, waiting for a reunion with his resurrected body? NO! Jesus said he was “sleeping”. (John 11:11-14) If he was “sleeping”, was he conscious? Are you conscious when you sleep? (Psalm 115:17)
Where did his sisters think he had gone?

A corpse appears to be "sleeping." But if the spirit is still alive, Jesus would view the corpse as merely "sleeping." The body is unconscious. The spirit is conscious, no longer being limited to the body.

“Martha said to him: “I know he will rise in the resurrection on the last day.”

The body will rise, or be re-created, at the Return of Christ. That takes place on the last day of this age.

The resurrection was to take place in the future...”on the last day”, during Christ’s thousand year reign.....this is not a reuniting of an existing conscious spirit that has been waiting in some “holding tank” for centuries...

Actually that's what happens. The spirits of departed saints go into some kind of "holding tank" until the day of resurrection at Christ's Return.

This is what Jews believed from their scripture. Jesus was Jewish and taught from Jewish scripture. Belief in an immortal soul is entirely pagan.

Do you have any references for me about this? About Jewish beliefs about the afterlife? About the Jewish sense of an "immortal soul" or not?

Immortality of the soul was NOT a Bible teaching. (Eccl 9:5-6, 10) It was adopted like a lost puppy by the apostate Jews

1st you tell me immortality and soul consciousness after death was not a Jewish belief. And now you tell me "apostate Jews" did believe as such! Make up your mind!

, and also by the early church, which was also apostate by that time, as Jesus had foretold.

Only Christian cults would say that. Conventional Christianity defines what conventional Christianity is--not apostates like yourself.

I don't mean to be rude, but you're an outsider defining "Christianity" for Christians. That is not a valid means of defining Christianity. It's much more acceptable to get a definition of "Christianity" from conventional Christians.

The Jews were never taught that God was three......he was “one”. (Deut 6:4)

Well of course not. They rejected their Messiah when he came. He was God and they didn't want to accept that in their apostate condition.

There was no “immortal soul”, just a future resurrection under God’s Kingdom. (John 5:28-29) And the dead were only in one of two places....not “heaven or hell”.....but in either “hades or Gehenna”....in neither place are they conscious.

Hades and Hell are synonymous! Elijah went up to heaven--how is that not teaching that God is in heaven, and that the saints can go there after death?

You can get released from hades but not from Gehenna, which is a death from which no resurrection is possible.....it is the “second death”....eternal death. In order to torture the wicked forever, they would have to be alive forever.....but eternal life is promised only to the righteous. If there is no immortal soul, there is no need to invent places for them to go.

Hades is a place already established--no need to invent it. I agree that Gehenna more accurately depicts the 2nd Death, which is an eternally-destroying fire, removing the souls of the ungodly from God's paradise on earth.

People are not, I think, burning forever. Rather, there's a quick fire, and then they're eternally removed. That's what it means to be thrown into the fire forever, an eternal banishment from the New Earth--not eternal torture. Torment yes, but torture no. Grief yes, but terror no.

What good fruitage has ever come from the divided and bickering churches of Christendom? She has always supported the world’s bloodshed. (Isaiah 1:15, John 17:16; John 18:36)

Growing pains happen, and challenges happen. Some are imposters or enemies of the Gospel fighting within nominal Christianity. But you don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

Christian value comes with our relationship with Christ. Knowing him is the assurance that we have Eternal Life. And that is it in a nutshell. This knowledge changes us to be like him, and this change verifies our Salvation.

 

[Aunty Jane]

A corpse appears to be "sleeping." But if the spirit is still alive, Jesus would view the corpse as merely "sleeping." The body is unconscious. The spirit is conscious, no longer being limited to the body.

You still insist that the spirit is a conscious entity, when no scripture says so. The “spirit” is the “breath of life” that animates a soul.....how can animals have the same spirit as man and breathe the same air and die the same death, if man alone has a spirit that lives on without a body or soul? This is not a Bible teaching.

When Jesus said that God “DESTROYS” both “body and soul in Gehenna” (Matt 10:28)....there is no mention of a spirit.....the whole person is obliterated from life, found unworthy to retain the gift. No one alive is in Gehenna.

The spirits of departed saints go into some kind of "holding tank" until the day of resurrection at Christ's Return.

“Sheol” is translated as “hades” in Greek, so they mean one and the same thing. Sheol is the place where all the dead go....the common grave of all mankind (Eccl 9:5-6, 10)....those in sheol know nothing....cannot think, plan or exercise wisdom in a place where the dead sleep.
I know that you are desperate to keep the dead alive, but that was satan’s lie...”you surely will not die”...
God never mentioned an afterlife of any description to Adam. There was just life or death.

Do you have any references for me about this? About Jewish beliefs about the afterlife? About the Jewish sense of an "immortal soul" or not?

I have given you scripture already concerning the Jewish belief in the condition of the dead. The dead stayed in their graves awaiting their resurrection...they haven’t gone anywhere.....there is no “holding tank” full of spirits of the dead.....the only spirits in existence are those who were created to live in heaven.

The only humans who will go to heaven are specially chosen for a role in God’s Kingdom....they must experience a rebirth in order to exist there. Not all Christians will go to heaven...that is not where God put us. We were designed to live on earth and the earth was designed to support our lives forever.

Only Christian cults would say that. Conventional Christianity defines what conventional Christianity is--not apostates like yourself.

I don't mean to be rude, but you're an outsider defining "Christianity" for Christians. That is not a valid means of defining Christianity. It's much more acceptable to get a definition of "Christianity" from conventional Christians.

So you have never scripturally tested the teachings of the church system which Jesus and his apostles said was going to fall into apostasy? What we have today is a very poor substitute for what Jesus started. It does not resemble first century Christianity at all. Can Christ be the head of a divided church?
The true definition of Christianity is what Jesus taught...not what his teachings became under the influence of corrupt men who were already undermining Christ’s teaching before the apostles even passed away.

Hades and Hell are synonymous! Elijah went up to heaven--how is that not teaching that God is in heaven, and that the saints can go there after death?

Nope....they are not synonymous because Christendom changed the meaning of the word “hades” into something that Christ never taught.

Elijah did not go to heaven....he was spectacularly transferred to a new assignment, this time in the neighboring kingdom of Judah. The Bible record shows Elijah still at work there, perhaps over seven years later. Ruling Judah at the time was wicked King Jehoram. He had married the daughter of Ahab and Jezebel, so their evil influence was still at work. Jehovah commissioned Elijah to write a letter pronouncing judgment on Jehoram. As foretold, Jehoram died a horrible death. Worse, the account concludes: “No one regretted it when he died.” (2 Chron 21:12-20) FACT: No one went to heaven before Jesus. (John 3:13)

Hades is a place already established--no need to invent it.

Hades has been twisted into something it never was. There is no such place as the “Hell” that Christendom believes in. What kind of loving God torments people forever without any way out. What punishment under God’s law ever involved torment? To be sentenced to suffer for all eternity for a short lifetime of sin is against God’s perfect justice. The penalty does not fit the crime.
God has no need to punish the dead. They will be punished by not getting a resurrection......

Growing pains happen, and challenges happen. Some are imposters or enemies of the Gospel fighting within nominal Christianity. But you don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

Growing pains? After 2000 years......and they still can’t get it right? Are you optimistic? I’m not...the “weeds” have been growing with the “wheat” all this time...now is the time for separation......and “few” will be found on the road to life, preferring to stay with the tainted religion of their ancestors rather than accept the truth being preached today......sound familiar? Isn’t that exactly what the Jews did when Jesus preached something different to their orthodox beliefs, to them?

No one suggested throwing the baby out with the bath water, but you can preserve the baby whilst getting rid of the dirty water and giving him a much needed bath in clean water. This is “the time of the end” and so Daniel said there would be a “cleansing, whitening and refining” of God’s faithful ones at this juncture....(Daniel 12:4, 9-10) Who is listening....? History is repeating and we all know why.....human nature does not change...and the devil counts on it.