Tongues

[TEXBOW]

I believe in the gifts of tongues but Charismatics seem to need all references to tongues in the scriptures a supernatural experience for all within ear shot. In 1 Corinthians 14:27 some argue that Paul is talking about a person who speaks a different language to a group who does not understand that language and needs an interpreter. It would be very confusing to have one or more ministers who are speaking in different languages who need interpreters thus Paul giving them instructions. There have been very detailed studies of the gift of tongues but most will not take the time to read these studies, they stick their fingers in their ears and do not want to hear. Their beliefs are firmly embedded with most a product of multiple generation belief. They want to believe what there granddaddy told them. The gift of tongues is alive and well but mis-understood by most.

 

[TEXBOW]

Well said Amadeus. My own experience is that speaking/praying/singing in tongues is good and uplifting and makes me feel closer to God. Having said that I don't do it so much any more and think that I have been inhibited by other Christians in debates like this. Please pray for me to be released from that.

I pray that you do not quench the Spirit and receive the gift without hesitation.

 

[TEXBOW]

You answer me under a false assumption. I do not believe Cessationism. I do not believe that spiritual gifts ceased in the Apostolic age. My interest in this thread is to promote a correct understanding of the gift of tongues and a correct understanding of Paul's letter to the Corinthians.

I do not agree with your view that the Corinthian church was ignorant about spiritual gifts or that they had forbidden people from speaking in tongues. Rather, some people were actually speaking in tongues, while other people were doing various other things, claiming to be speaking in tongues when in fact they were not. These disparate acts, all claiming to be the same thing, raised questions in the minds of the believers in Corinth, which is partly why they wrote a letter to him. They had questions about the true nature of the gift and how to understand what is happening.

By the way, when Paul exhorts the Corinthians to prophesy he isn't necessarily talking about the gift of prophecy. What do I mean? He begins chapter 14 with a general exhortation.

Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy. 1 Corinthians 14:1

In general, to "prophesy" is to speak by the Spirit of God. (Refer to 1 Corinthians 12:3) There are many different spiritual gifts that fall under this general category: predicting the future is one way to prophesy, but so is teaching, preaching, and evangelizing. All of these gifts fall under the general category of prophesying.

In the verse above, Paul is talking about prophesying in the general sense, including all aspects of edifying the church. The text that follows is NOT a comparison between two spiritual gifts, i.e. tongues and prophecy. Rather, Paul's goal is to draw a sharp distinction between actual tongues and other acts which people have mistaken for tongues. Paul will argue that actual tongues is one of the many means to "prophesy."

If a person is speaking to themselves, this is not tongues, it's something else. Actual tongues is speaking to the church by the spirit of God. In other words, the gift of tongues is another way to prophesy. If a person is praying to themselves or praying in the spirit, this is not tongues, this is something else. And I am not saying it's wrong to pray silently and I'm not saying that praying silently "in the spirit" isn't a valid spiritual practice. I'm simply explicating Paul's view that the actual gift of tongues involves public speaking by the spirit of God. To speak in tongues IS to prophesy.

I agree with your view but we must recognize their is a prayer language that is different than "tongues". I think what makes this subject difficult is that the translation from Greek to English didn't have the ability to give different words that we use today to define prophecy, tongues and utterances. I think tongues, languages and utterances are all in one bucket in Greek. The definition of prophecy can be defined in Greek as preach the truth not necessarily predicting the future. I think today when a Pastor delivers a sermon (assuming he is a Spirit filled true believer) in the Greek language it could be defined as prophesy. It takes a lot of effort to do a deep dive in this subject and most will not take the time mostly because they do not want to hear or understand anything differently than what they have been told for generations.

 

[TEXBOW]

I think we would see more in the scriptures about the gift of tongues if all those who had accepted Christ in the 1st century were given that gift. I cannot find a scripture adding "speaking in tongues" to a means of salvation. Paul in 1 Corinthians 15 does not mention speaking in tongues as a requirement for salvation nor does he in Ephesians 2:8-9. The gift of tongues is one of several gifts available to the believer but these gifts are not required for your salvation. I also think there is much confusion regarding baptism in the Holy Spirit and water baptism. We do not receive the gifts of the Spirit before we are sealed.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Well said Amadeus. My own experience is that speaking/praying/singing in tongues is good and uplifting and makes me feel closer to God. Having said that I don't do it so much any more and think that I have been inhibited by other Christians in debates like this. Please pray for me to be released from that.

Remember what Jesus said about prayer, it would be done in secret.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Of course I have read about the gift of the interpretation of tongues.

And I will make the same point here, the gift is given to the believer/converted, those who have the Holy Spirit upon them, and not to those who do not have the Holy Spirit.

So, it remains, the Acts 2 event does not speak of a gift of a supernatural hearing received by the hearers, nor of the gift of interpretation of tongues received by the hearers, who were unbelievers and who have not the Holy Spirit.

Tong
R4763

Read 1 Corinthians 14:2 and tell me how Acts 2 does not contradict it.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Correct. Those that gathered had mockers not a Holy Spirit gift.

Only the devout Jews that already belonged to God were drawn by the Spirit. They are His gifts, and He can use them as He pleases. At the time, Gentiles were not given the gospel, let alone the Holy Spirit. Therefore, the mockers had to be Gentiles, probably Romans.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I think we would see more in the scriptures about the gift of tongues if all those who had accepted Christ in the 1st century were given that gift. I cannot find a scripture adding "speaking in tongues" to a means of salvation. Paul in 1 Corinthians 15 does not mention speaking in tongues as a requirement for salvation nor does he in Ephesians 2:8-9. The gift of tongues is one of several gifts available to the believer but these gifts are not required for your salvation. I also think there is much confusion regarding baptism in the Holy Spirit and water baptism. We do not receive the gifts of the Spirit before we are sealed.

The rest of Scripture just calls it "praying in the Spirit." And speaking in tongues is NOT the evidence Pentecostals believe it to be. Everyone who receives the Spirit CAN speak in tongues, Mark 16:17, but not everyone who receives the Spirit WILL speak in tongues. Before some come to Christ and actually believe His Word, they were mockers if they heard about tongues.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

who were unbelievers and who have not the Holy Spirit.

They were already believers in the Messiah and had the fear of God in them, so they already belonged to God and received the gift of interpretation of tongues to draw them the rest of the way to the knowledge they needed that Jesus is their Messiah.

Acts 10 shows a Gentile that believed in God and feared Him, and he was shown a vision without having the Holy Spirit. Tong, you need to not put God and the Holy Spirit in such a small box. That is a religious spirit that is not of God.

 

[TEXBOW]

Only the devout Jews that already belonged to God were drawn by the Spirit. They are His gifts, and He can use them as He pleases. At the time, Gentiles were not given the gospel, let alone the Holy Spirit. Therefore, the mockers had to be Gentiles, probably Romans.

I think you should read Acts 2 again. It clearly refers to a multitude of many different places. It clearly tells us that the multitude marveled. We know there were Jews in Rome, just read the book of Romans. It is pure speculation to assume Gentiles were mocking them. I do not wish to add or take anything away from the scripture. So your statement that the Mockers had to be Gentiles is not in the scripture.

 

[TEXBOW]

They were already believers in the Messiah and had the fear of God in them, so they already belonged to God and received the gift of interpretation of tongues to draw them the rest of the way to the knowledge they needed that Jesus is their Messiah.

Acts 10 shows a Gentile that believed in God and feared Him, and he was shown a vision without having the Holy Spirit. Tong, you need to not put God and the Holy Spirit in such a small box. That is a religious spirit that is not of God.

You're simply inserting your view. The scriptures do not support your statement. I do not think it's wise to add to the scripture. We do not have any evidence that the multitude had the fear of God in them. It does say they were devout Jews. There is clearly devout Jews today who do not have the fear of God. The clear evidence that the Holy Spirit gave them that were of one accord the gift of speaking in those different languages does not need a charismatic embellishment to strengthen the gift. The multitude heard a noise and went to check it out and were marveled that they heard these people speaking in their native language. No need to twist the scripture to make someone believe that the multitude when they came to investigate received a gift from the Holy Spirit so they could interpret an unknown utterance to their native language. They simply understood the language they were speaking. It's like saying that I'm typing this message in Hebrew but you're reading it in English because the Holy Spirit has gifted you that ability. Trust me, I'm doing my best to type this in English.

 

[Pearl]

I pray that you do not quench the Spirit and receive the gift without hesitation.

Thank you have had the gift but have been inhibited from using it. But I intend to do something about it.

 

[Tong2020]

Read 1 Corinthians 14:2 and tell me how Acts 2 does not contradict it.

1 Cor.14:2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.

Needless to say, Acts 2 does not contradict it. For scriptures does not contradict scriptures.

You ask how? Why, will that refute what I said in my post, that the Acts 2 event does not speak of a gift of a supernatural hearing received by the hearers, nor of the gift of interpretation of tongues received by the hearers, who were unbelievers and who have not the Holy Spirit? If not, may I know, for what then is your asking?

Tong
R4766

 

[Pearl]

Remember what Jesus said about prayer, it would be done in secret.

I'm not sure what you mean @CadyandZoe

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I think you should read Acts 2 again. It clearly refers to a multitude of many different places. It clearly tells us that the multitude marveled. We know there were Jews in Rome, just read the book of Romans. It is pure speculation to assume Gentiles were mocking them. I do not wish to add or take anything away from the scripture. So your statement that the Mockers had to be Gentiles is not in the scripture.

Pilate was Roman, and Jesus was crucified in Jerusalem which was under Roman rule.

Jews from all those areas mentioned were in Jerusalem for the feasts at that time. This was the feast of Pentecost.

Who do you think were mocking? Pharisees? You do know that there were 3000 Jews that came to Christ that day don't you?

 

[1stCenturyLady]

You're simply inserting your view. The scriptures do not support your statement. I do not think it's wise to add to the scripture. We do not have any evidence that the multitude had the fear of God in them. It does say they were devout Jews. There is clearly devout Jews today who do not have the fear of God. The clear evidence that the Holy Spirit gave them that were of one accord the gift of speaking in those different languages does not need a charismatic embellishment to strengthen the gift. The multitude heard a noise and went to check it out and were marveled that they heard these people speaking in their native language. No need to twist the scripture to make someone believe that the multitude when they came to investigate received a gift from the Holy Spirit so they could interpret an unknown utterance to their native language. They simply understood the language they were speaking. It's like saying that I'm typing this message in Hebrew but you're reading it in English because the Holy Spirit has gifted you that ability. Trust me, I'm doing my best to type this in English.

So you believe that speaking in tongues was for the purpose of preaching to foreigners of other languages in their natural language?

It is not Charismatic embellishment; it is rightly dividing the Word of Truth, and not contradicting 1 Corinthians 14:2.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I'm not sure what you mean @CadyandZoe

I don't want you to be afraid or concerned about your prayer life. I want you to continue relating to God just how he wants you to do it. And don't let others keep you from your joy.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
who were unbelievers and who have not the Holy Spirit.

They were already believers in the Messiah and had the fear of God in them, so they already belonged to God and received the gift of interpretation of tongues to draw them the rest of the way to the knowledge they needed that Jesus is their Messiah.

Acts 10 shows a Gentile that believed in God and feared Him, and he was shown a vision without having the Holy Spirit. Tong, you need to not put God and the Holy Spirit in such a small box. That is a religious spirit that is not of God.

<<<They were already believers in the Messiah and had the fear of God in them, so they already belonged to God and received the gift of interpretation of tongues to draw them the rest of the way to the knowledge they needed that Jesus is their Messiah.>>>

Where did you learn that in Acts 2? Or is it just guesswork? As it is, that is just what it is you want to believe and want us to believe, or a make believe to defend your position that the hearers received the gift of interpretation of tongues. For what you say there could not even be conclusively read out of Acts 2.

Besides, granting that the hearers received the gift of the interpretation of tongues, for the sake of argument, it still does not take away the truth in Acts 2:4 concerning the disciples, “they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.”

<<<Acts 10 shows a Gentile that believed in God and feared Him, and he was shown a vision without having the Holy Spirit. Tong, you need to not put God and the Holy Spirit in such a small box. That is a religious spirit that is not of God.>>>

I am not putting God and the Holy Spirit in a small box. Why should I? How could I? I was only pointing out what could be read in Acts 2. That Acts 2 was telling us that the disciples were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Tong
R4767

 

[TEXBOW]

So you believe that speaking in tongues was for the purpose of preaching to foreigners of other languages in their natural language?

It is not Charismatic embellishment; it is rightly dividing the Word of Truth, and not contradicting 1 Corinthians 14:2.

Yes and I also believe that tongues were also a gift of the Holy Spirit for prayer. I think tongues as defined in the Greek language can refer to different things. As you mentioned, the Holy Spirit is not restricted to a box. I think many Christians loose credibility in the teaching of tongues because the define tongues in the scripture in only one way. There is not need to interpret scripture differently than the plain reading of the scripture. There is not a hidden message in every verse. We do not need the multitude to have received a listening gift from the Holy Spirit for the event described in Acts 2 to be any more wonderful and powerful. We should not add too or take away. This only weakens our true message of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. What Paul calls the least of the gifts some have elevated to an action that is necessary for salvation. Tongues or healing or wisdom or knowledge, all are gifts and tongues is not superior. I think the Pentecostal Churches in America have elevated speaking in tongues to a point that it has planted doubt in every member of their Churches who have not spoken in tongues of their faith. They have not spoken in tongues so they keep trying to get saved over and over and over again. The Holy Spirit determines which gift a believer gets. Some Churches are trying to force this gift upon members. I do not agree with that. Remember Jimmy Swaggart, he was sleeping with prostitutes on Saturday and speaking in tongues on Sunday. Believers should seek all gifts but most important strengthen their faith in the word, prayer and love. Every time a Pentecostal Pastor mentions tongues he should have to mention Love a hundred times.

 

[Pearl]

I don't want you to be afraid or concerned about your prayer life. I want you to continue relating to God just how he wants you to do it. And don't let others keep you from your joy.

Thank you.