Tongues

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TEXBOW

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Tongues are not required for salvation but they are a sign that follows those who believe, per Mark 16.

The personal prayer language unknown tongue is for all believers.

The specialized gift of speaking in tongues aloud in church with a message from God, is not for everyone.

Tongues spoken aloud in church were not known languages, but unknown languages that need interpreted by someone with the HS gift of interpretation.

If tongues in church were known languages, that would mean that when the Corinthian church forbade tongues, they forbade speaking in a known language - which would mean a VERY silent church service!
Curtis, unless what they are talking about is someone teaching/preaching to believers with a different language. It would be like an American church today saying we are not going to allow an evangelist from Mexico who only speaks Spanish to preach at our church which would require an interpreter.

Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians 14:11that he does not know the meaning of the language I shall be a foreigner to that person and that person who speaks will be a foreigner to him.

I think many choose to brush aside, to ignore 1 Corinthians 14:2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries. This would mean that someone speaking in an unknown utterance in Church is speaking TOO GOD.

1 Corinthians 14 is very interesting. Things can be understood in various ways mostly dependent on how YOU WANT to understand. We all have our bias for whatever reason. What I come away with in regard to the gift of Tongues is that its languages and prayer language. Tongues are valid today. Prayer language/utterances are valid today BUT some have elevated their role in salvation and are fixated on that one gift of many. Others are fixated on healing ministry the same way. Churches fail to teach the full Gospel to their members. A Spirit inspired message from the pulpit is wonderful but I think a Spirit inspired expository teaching of the scriptures are just as important. Pastors ignore scripture that might raise questions of conflict with denominational beliefs. Paul clearly seems to diminish the gift of Tongues in 1 Corinthians 14:19-23.

Its difficult for me to ignore all the scriptures about how someone willfully committing sin, convincing themselves they are not in sin, when God says they are a liar. That God is not in them. Does it make any sense that a prostitute practicing her trade is at the same time a temple of the Holy Spirit? Can someone who is filled with the Holy Spirit (sealed with the Holy Spirit) sleep with prostitutes on Saturday and speak in Tongues from a pulpit on Sunday and repeat that many many times? What Spirit did he have? A Pastor friend told me we should not attempt to reconcile that behavior from Jimmy Swaggart. I can't reconcile it and I can't understand it either. Is the Holy Spirit jumping in and out of us based upon our behavior? Is speaking in an unknown tongue really any evidence at all? What evidence was it for Jimmy Swaggart? Bad on Saturday, Good on Sunday. Can tongues be a deception? Some have faked it and admitted it later. Repeating "I ride a Honda" over and over very fast. It would be interesting to do some research in Jimmy Swaggart's tongues and interpretations during that period.
 
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1stCenturyLady

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The mistake we make is to assume that since this happened to Cornelius, it's supposed to happen to every believer. I don't think every believer will speak in tongues to give evidence of a clean heart. This may happen to some of us, but not necessarily to everyone.

Right, speaking in tongues is by faith. If you don't have faith that tongues are for today, then you have a chain around your heart, so won't. But that doesn't mean you haven't been given the Holy Spirit, if, in fact, you have been baptized in the Holy Spirit. The biggest error in the church is the belief that everyone who believes in Jesus actually have the Holy Spirit. He is who we must show evidence of having, not tongues, and His evidence is freedom from committing willful sins of lawlessness. The gifts are given, but are secondary to a purified life. Many in the Church are still being drawn by the Spirit, but He is still on the outside of us, but not indwelling us that proves the difference.

I didn't receive the Spirit for 30 years after starting to go to church! But when I did, what a change that made in my life. Before that time I was just learning the Bible. But "many are forever learning but never come to a knowledge of the Truth." That is a picture of most of today's church. "Few there are who find it."
 
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Paul Christensen

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Can you explain why Peter didn't mean to say it then? I was quoting Peter.

Recall the story. Acts of the Apostles 10:9-16 In that context, Peter is reminded by the Lord that God alone decides who is clean and holy. A bit later, Peter is witness to the fact that the Holy Spirit, which was promised to the Jews, was poured out on a Gentile -- Cornelius. So then, Peter himself makes the connection between the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and being declared "holy and clean."

Fast forward to Acts 15.
"Peter stood up and said to them, “Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; 9 and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith."

What evidence does Peter provide that Cornelius' heart was cleansed? God, knowing the heart, gave him the Holy Spirit.
The link is there alright. Notice that Peter says that their hearts were cleansed by faith. It was because they were cleansed by faith that they were able to receive the Holy Spirit, in the same way that when our hearts were cleansed by faith in Christ's finished work on the cross, we were able to receive the Holy Spirit.
 
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1stCenturyLady

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Its difficult for me to ignore all the scriptures about how someone willfully committing sin, convincing themselves they are not in sin, when God says they are a liar. That God is not in them. Does it make any sense that a prostitute practicing her trade is at the same time a temple of the Holy Spirit? Can someone who is filled with the Holy Spirit (sealed with the Holy Spirit) sleep with prostitutes on Saturday and speak in Tongues from a pulpit on Sunday and repeat that many many times? What Spirit did he have? A Pastor friend told me we should not attempt to reconcile that behavior from Jimmy Swaggart. I can't reconcile it and I can't understand it either. Is the Holy Spirit jumping in and out of us based upon our behavior? Is speaking in an unknown tongue really any evidence at all? What evidence was it for Jimmy Swaggart? Bad on Saturday, Good on Sunday. Can tongues be a deception? Some have faked it and admitted it later. Repeating "I ride a Honda" over and over very fast. It would be interesting to do some research in Jimmy Swaggart's tongues and interpretations during that period.

Hi brother!

About Jimmy Swaggart, don't forget that the gifts of God are irrevocable. That is why even though the Jews for the most part rejected Jesus, even killing their own Messiah, God is not through with their nation completely, even in the midst of their ongoing rejection (1948, 1967). God chastised him harshly, allowing his secret to be revealed because He loved him. Jimmy Swaggart repented.
 
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1stCenturyLady

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1 Corinthians 14 is very interesting. Things can be understood in various ways mostly dependent on how YOU WANT to understand. We all have our bias for whatever reason. What I come away with in regard to the gift of Tongues is that its languages and prayer language. Tongues are valid today. Prayer language/utterances are valid today BUT some have elevated their role in salvation and are fixated on that one gift of many.

I used to speak in tongues quite often, but seeing as I can hear God's voice and understand His will for what to pray, I stopped praying in tongues, and only do so in group settings lifting up praise to God like a choir, as they did on the Day of Pentecost. But this week I watched one of my recorded shows of Sid Roth and realized I was really missing out on a lot that God has for me through operating that praise language. God loves to hear it, and I have been withholding it from Him.
 

amadeus

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Hi brother!

About Jimmy Swaggart, don't forget that the gifts of God are irrevocable. That is why even though the Jews for the most part rejected Jesus, even killing their own Messiah, God is not through with their nation completely, even in the midst of their ongoing rejection (1948, 1967). God chastised him harshly, allowing his secret to be revealed because He loved him. Jimmy Swaggart repented.
Perhaps a fallen star like the unnamed prophet in I Kings 13. The prophecy of that man killed by a lion on his way home was fulfilled in King Josiah more than 300 years later. Being a fallen star did not negate his God-given prophecy!
 
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amigo de christo

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Got any Chapter and Verse for this Hog Wash?
When peter preached to the house of cornelious , he laid hands on none . They simply were filled with the Spirit .
Always remember that . It dont just come by the laying on of hands . Folks get to caught up on church doctrine these days .
I say get caught up on bible doctrine . I know that in the case where peter came down , HE did lay hands on them and simeon
tried to offer money . But its not always the case . The SPIRIT cometh unto He who believes . Believes IN JESUS CHRIST .
Course in truth one cannot even truly call HIM LORD IN heart , LEST BY the SPIRIT . But i was speaking of the baptism of the Holy Ghost .
Now , let all that has breath praise the glorious Lord .
 

amigo de christo

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Got any Chapter and Verse for this Hog Wash?
They will show in in one part of acts where this was the case . Me thinks it was chapter eight or nine ,
but read also chapter TEN . The house of cornelious . PETER laid hands on none and yet the SPIRIT FELL UPON THEM .
Folks get too caught up with doctrines of men . I say LEARN those bibles my friends .
 

amigo de christo

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God will work through any denomination He wants...However He wants...I want what He wants.
People often receive the gift of tongues through the laying-on of hands.
When I received the gift of tongues, I was alone.
Not through all denominations . Any denomination or group that preaches another jesus or another gospel
GOD aint working through those men . And TRUMAN ............................pull up a chair
its a number so high i cant count it that are flat out false . I dont mean they teach a lil error , I MEAN THEY FOLLOW SATAN HIMSELF .
Its real bad truman . I dont say it without reason . I tested the doctrine and the fruits . Both were super and i do mean super deadly
and super false . And as i said i aint talking about minor errors . I am talking an outright betrayal to our LORD and SAVOIR HIMSELF .
 
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amigo de christo

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John Calvin, Charles Taze Russell, Jakob Ammann, and Joseph Smith, all had their issues, both personal and theological. Strangely enough their issues were with Christianity itself. Something in the scriptures, not the overall message, but something specific that they objected to or could not rationalize and they could not shake it. For all these men, it was one or two things (categorically) that caused them to jump the logical train of thought and build denominations around their own personal difficulties with the scriptures.

Issues....confussed....overwhelmed.....it was not a matter of intelligence and then again it was. These men knew they were not stupid so they could not understand why they could not figure out the meaning of the scriptures as a whole. They were hung up, per say on these categorical theological concepts.

So what they finally came up with.....to really rectify it all internally to themselves, were just outlandish conclusions and interpretations of the Bible. So the end results were beliefs that just do not make sense and ultimately ended up alienating their denominations from main stream Christianity.

I could get into the Shakers but that would be a little more complex.
Only one of those names listed above truly followed Christ . You can try and figure it out .
A hint , IT WASNT THE MORMON . Though we or even an angel preach any other gosple unto you than ...............
 
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1stCenturyLady

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When peter preached to the house of cornelious , he laid hands on none . They simply were filled with the Spirit .
Always remember that . It dont just come by the laying on of hands . Folks get to caught up on church doctrine these days .
I say get caught up on bible doctrine . I know that in the case where peter came down , HE did lay hands on them and simeon
tried to offer money . But its not always the case . The SPIRIT cometh unto He who believes . Believes IN JESUS CHRIST .
Course in truth one cannot even truly call HIM LORD IN heart , LEST BY the SPIRIT . But i was speaking of the baptism of the Holy Ghost .
Now , let all that has breath praise the glorious Lord .

Yes, too many with religious spirits try to create formulas and interpretations that cannot be altered. I think that is why Jesus used many different methods when healing people so we wouldn't put God in a box.
 

amigo de christo

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Americans fall into one of three categories:
1. Those who make it happen.
2. Those who watch it happen.
3. Those who wonder what in blazes happened!

I think that American Prosperity prophets fall into the 3rd category, especially when Covid-19 happened.
christains fall into the a fourth group . THEY wait upon the LORD and by HIS Spirit they do as they ought too .
Very small group . Very tiny . Prosperity preaches are all out false . I say things direct my friend .
Since we on the note of prosperity preachers , i say go ahead and ban TBN forever cause its plumb full of
men and women of belial . Now i wont continue to make this list of all that are false ,
cause i dont have that kind of time . Its bad my friend . EVERONE today, however , just wants to overlook error
and have fake unity . What we need is real unity . That means JESUS loved above all , which means we love HIS DOCTRINE
it MATTERS . Doctrine matters . Say it with me . Doctrine matters . Be encouraged my friend .
But if folks wont warn , then at least let me do it . I aint here to have the world love me , Though i do love the people ,
I am here OUT OF LOVE To point to JESUS and that would mean the biblical one . We are running out of time
and a STRONG delusion is brewing and building . And none wants to go under that .
 
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amigo de christo

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I used to speak in tongues quite often, but seeing as I can hear God's voice and understand His will for what to pray, I stopped praying in tongues, and only do so in group settings lifting up praise to God like a choir, as they did on the Day of Pentecost. But this week I watched one of my recorded shows of Sid Roth and realized I was really missing out on a lot that God has for me through operating that praise language. God loves to hear it, and I have been withholding it from Him.
You need to beware of that sid roth show . the man has had folks on that show that speak to the dead my friend ,
GOD does not approve . Talking to dead loved ones .
That show is full of folks that operate under a spirit of divination .
And dont marvel that they can say JESUS is LORD .
The lady in acts , YES READ THAT LOVELY BIBLE ,
She too operated under a spirit of DIVINATION , and she was hollering THESE MEN COME TO SHOW US THE WAY
IT SAID TRUTH . YET paul cast it out . TURN TBN OFF . You are loved my friend . This is not an attack
but i warn out of love . Turn that show off and let us simply rest in the Lord and grow in HIS grace and do BY HIS SPIRIT .
 
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1stCenturyLady

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Only one of those names listed above truly followed Christ . You can try and figure it out .
A hint , IT WASNT THE MORMON . Though we or even an angel preach any other gosple unto you than ...............

Hmmmm

John Calvin, Charles Taze Russell, Jakob Ammann, and Joseph Smith

Calvinism
Jehovahs Witnesses
Amish
Mormons

It would be interesting to know which one you think followed Christ. Personally, I can't imagine. Now if you put John Wesley up there, he would have my vote!
 
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1stCenturyLady

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You need to beware of that sid roth show . the man has had folks on that show that speak to the dead my friend ,
GOD does not approve . Talking to dead loved ones .
That show is full of folks that operate under a spirit of divination .
And dont marvel that they can say JESUS is LORD .
The lady in acts , YES READ THAT LOVELY BIBLE ,
She too operated under a spirit of DIVINATION , and she was hollering THESE MEN COME TO SHOW US THE WAY
IT SAID TRUTH . YET paul cast it out . TURN TBN OFF . You are loved my friend . This is not an attack
but i warn out of love . Turn that show off and let us simply rest in the Lord and grow in HIS grace and do BY HIS SPIRIT .

I can discern the difference. Personally, I must have missed the speaking to the dead you were talking about. Some of his guests he doesn't even know. And some he has known for a long time. What I like to see is how many teach something new to them that God has already taught me in the Spirit. Those I can trust, because it confirms they can hear the same God as I have. So should I throw out a great show because of a few shows with dirty bath water? There are many more guests who do hear from God, than those who are deceived.

But some of his subjects I delete without even watching, and some I "keep" to watch again. Sorry, my friend, but in general, this is a great show and the only Christian show I watch. I stay away from all Word of Faith based shows. Long ago when that movement started it was on faith for healing, then got twisted into name it and claim it for prosperity. But I would say of all denominations, they are the easiest for me to teach the corrections that can make their faith productive and have ALL their prayers answered, and instead of making God their servant, they produce the fear of the Lord and are His servants.
 

Grailhunter

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Only one of those names listed above truly followed Christ . You can try and figure it out .
A hint , IT WASNT THE MORMON . Though we or even an angel preach any other gosple unto you than ...............

They all had issues and confusion of the mind....and it affected their interpretation of the scriptures and so they developed weird religions. And the Mormons? Weird religion but good people. I have known a lot of them.
 
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Enoch111

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The biggest error in the church is the belief that everyone who believes in Jesus actually have the Holy Spirit.
False. You call this "the biggest error" when in fact it is Gods' truth. So it seems that you are really confused and trying to confuse others. Your false doctrines are evident whenever you post, so you need to be learning instead of trying to teach.

So let's see what the Bible says about every believer receiving the Holy Spirit. And we will not even consider the Corinthian church.

1. THE CHURCH AT JERUSALEM
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2:38)

First of all we will avoid the error of claiming that only those who were water baptized received the gift of the Holy Spirit (see Acts 10). Paul was addressing probably 30,000 Jews from all over the Roman empire, and about 3,000 souls were saved. Did they all receive the Holy Spirit by repenting and believing on Christ? Absolutely. Did any of them speak in tongues? Absolutely not. There is no record of these 3,000 speaking in tongues, and had it happened it would certainly have been recorded.

2. THE CHURCH AT ROME
Here is what Paul said to these Christians, and there is no mention of tongues in this epistle (Rom 8:9-11):
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

It should be crystal clear from this that the Holy Spirit indwells every genuine Christian, which is also a guarantee of the believer's resurrection. Yet not a single mention of tongues in Romans.

3. THE CHURCH AT EPHESUS

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the Word of Truth, the Gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. (Eph 1:13,14)

So what did Paul tell the Ephesians here?
1. First they heard the Gospel.
2. The Gospel is the Word of Truth.
3. They believed on and trusted Jesus after hearing the Gospel.
4. Because they believed they were sealed with the Holy Spirit.
5. It is the indwelling Spirit which seals the believer until the day of redemption (the Resurrection/Rapture).
6. There is no mention of tongues in this epistle.

CONCLUSION: ALL GENUINE BELIEVERS RECEIVE THE GIFT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, AND IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH TONGUES.
 

Grailhunter

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Hmmmm

John Calvin, Charles Taze Russell, Jakob Ammann, and Joseph Smith

Calvinism
Jehovahs Witnesses
Amish
Mormons

It would be interesting to know which one you think followed Christ. Personally, I can't imagine. Now if you put John Wesley up there, he would have my vote!
The history of John Wesley is very interesting and impacted several denominations through the Great Awakenings. In the early days of his ministry he associated with the Moravian Church which is one my favorites.
 

Grailhunter

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False. You call this "the biggest error" when in fact it is Gods' truth. So it seems that you are really confused and trying to confuse others. Your false doctrines are evident whenever you post, so you need to be learning instead of trying to teach.

So let's see what the Bible says about every believer receiving the Holy Spirit. And we will not even consider the Corinthian church.

1. THE CHURCH AT JERUSALEM
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2:38)

First of all we will avoid the error of claiming that only those who were water baptized received the gift of the Holy Spirit (see Acts 10). Paul was addressing probably 30,000 Jews from all over the Roman empire, and about 3,000 souls were saved. Did they all receive the Holy Spirit by repenting and believing on Christ? Absolutely. Did any of them speak in tongues? Absolutely not. There is no record of these 3,000 speaking in tongues, and had it happened it would certainly have been recorded.

2. THE CHURCH AT ROME
Here is what Paul said to these Christians, and there is no mention of tongues in this epistle (Rom 8:9-11):
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

It should be crystal clear from this that the Holy Spirit indwells every genuine Christian, which is also a guarantee of the believer's resurrection. Yet not a single mention of tongues in Romans.

3. THE CHURCH AT EPHESUS

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the Word of Truth, the Gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. (Eph 1:13,14)

So what did Paul tell the Ephesians here?
1. First they heard the Gospel.
2. The Gospel is the Word of Truth.
3. They believed on and trusted Jesus after hearing the Gospel.
4. Because they believed they were sealed with the Holy Spirit.
5. It is the indwelling Spirit which seals the believer until the day of redemption (the Resurrection/Rapture).
6. There is no mention of tongues in this epistle.

CONCLUSION: ALL GENUINE BELIEVERS RECEIVE THE GIFT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, AND IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH TONGUES.
@1stCenturyLady @Enoch111

I am not sure if you two are disagreeing that much. You might want to clarify the syntax of the words.
Receive the Holy Spirit.
Filled with the Holy Spirit
Not everyone has the same interaction or relationship with the Holy Spirit. We assume that everyone that believes and is baptized receive the Holy Spirit, because of the scriptures. But the Holy Spirit prophesies through some and some experience tongues. Some see visions. And for some the Holy Spirit is dormmate. Some say they received the Holy Spirit in the beginning, but don't have any real association with the Holy Spirit.