Tongues

[Paul Christensen]

That's not a prophecy...that's called "obvious!" Lol

Ha ha ha ha! I love it!

Our anti-tongues friend is like the unsuccessful Scottish hunter who went out into the fog and mist!

 

[Helen]

I have been reading John Calvin's commentaries, and have immensely enjoying having the Holy Spirit giving me many pearls of wisdom on every page. Incidentally, although he acknowledges, in his commentary on 1 Corinthians 14, that the signs gifts have ceased, he says that tongues died out because of widespread misuse, and he clearly implies that if tongues was still active in his church, he would be speaking it. He clearly says, "If I spoke with tongues, my spirit would be praying." It is interesting when he comments on 1 Corinthians 13:10, he says that the "perfect" that is to come is the time when we are perfected in glory when we go to be with Christ. He says that the gifts of the Spirit are (take not of his use of the present tense) to compensate for our present weaknesses, but when we die, we leave our weaknesses behind, so we don't need the gifts any longer, and the full ratification will come on the Day of Judgment. It is very interesting that Calvin makes absolutely no mention of the formation of the canon of Scripture being the reason why the gifts ceased, even though the full canon of Scripture had been in existence for 1300 years when he wrote his commentary. What is ridiculous is that we have ardent Calvinists who quote 1 Corinthians 13:10 in conjunction with the canon of Scripture totally contradicting what Calvin himself said about it. It begs the question whether many of these Calvinists have actually read Calvin's own writing?

What impresses me about Calvin's commentaries, is that what he wrote in the 16th Century, much of it is so relevant for today that it is remarkable. Calvin may not have been inspired by the Holy Spirit in his writing as were the Apostles, but he was certainly enlightened and guided by the Spirit in what he set out on the pages.

Rightly or wrongly I believe that if Calvin was here today he would even agree with some of the extremes of “Calvinism”.

but, that’s just my two cents …least said …lol

 

[Helen]

I set out what Paul actually said about tongues in 1 Corinthians 14. If you don't believe what Paul actually said as he was inspired by the Holy Spirit, there is nothing more to be said. The Scripture says that if someone wants to be ignorant, let them remain ignorant.

Actually, what knocks the stuffing out of your argument against modern tongues is what happened to two people in the very church where I was a deacon during the late 1970s. One person was praying in tongues during a prayer meeting and his language turned out to be a Ghanaian rural village dialect in which he was talking about the wonderful works of God. The Ghanaian visitor was excited because he knew that the speak could never have known that language. Another person was praying quietly in tongues during a church service, and the New Zealand Maori lady sitting beside him told him that he was praying in the Maori language and God was speaking encouraging things to her through it. That person was New Zealand European and knew no Maori language. These are times where God steps in and shows that anti-tongues teaching is nothing but foolishness.

Don't tell me that these are unsubstantiated stories, because the first person was a close friend and the event was witnessed by more than 20 people in that prayer meeting, and the second person was me and the lady was a Mrs Samuels whom I had known for a number of years.

Agree , been in the same type of meeting when I was young and still at work…went one lunch time to an open air meeting…someone spoke in tongues and from the back a foreign man yelled out , “He just listed my sins…I must get this Jesus”…he was led to the lord quietly over at the side.

I have many stories , but as the saying goes -“ A man convinced against his will , is of the same opinion still.”

they reject the Spirit moving today at their own hurt.

,,,,H

 

[Truman]

Agree , been in the same type of meeting when I was young and still at work…went one lunch time to an open air meeting…someone spoke in tongues and from the back a foreign man yelled out , “He just listed my sins…I must get this Jesus”…he was led to the lord quietly over at the side.

I have many stories , but as the saying goes -“ A man convinced against his will , is of the same opinion still.”

they reject the Spirit moving today at their own hurt.

,,,,H

Reading this just caused a chuckling to rise up from deep within me!
This could mean something like this: "My name is Holy Spirit, and I approve of this message!" Lol

 

[Paul Christensen]

Rightly or wrongly I believe that if Calvin was here today he would even agree with some of the extremes of “Calvinism”.

but, that’s just my two cents …least said …lol

I'm not sure about that. He seems to be pretty balanced and Scriptural in his commentaries. I have read his commentaries on Romans, John, 1 John, 1 Corinthians and nearly finished Acts, and quite frankly although he mentions election in passing, he doesn't push it in the same way that some ultra-Calvinists do. I am impressed that he examines all the doctrinal alternatives, and says that some he rejects, others he can live with if others want to believe them, and others he prefers. There are places where he doubts a doctrine but he decides not to be contentious about it. From his remarks about the Papal system in his time, and some of the details, I would be sure that he would say the same about some of the ultra-Charismatics whom he would call "fanatics". So, I think that many who call themselves "Calvinists" have never really seriously read Calvin, but some of his followers in later centuries.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Agree , been in the same type of meeting when I was young and still at work…went one lunch time to an open air meeting…someone spoke in tongues and from the back a foreign man yelled out , “He just listed my sins…I must get this Jesus”…he was led to the lord quietly over at the side.

I have many stories , but as the saying goes -“ A man convinced against his will , is of the same opinion still.”

they reject the Spirit moving today at their own hurt.

,,,,H

That's an amazing testimony! When you are direct witness to a miracle like that it destroys any anti-tongues nonsense that is thrown at you.

 

[Grailhunter]

I have been reading John Calvin's commentaries, and have immensely enjoying having the Holy Spirit giving me many pearls of wisdom on every page. Incidentally, although he acknowledges, in his commentary on 1 Corinthians 14, that the signs gifts have ceased, he says that tongues died out because of widespread misuse, and he clearly implies that if tongues was still active in his church, he would be speaking it. He clearly says, "If I spoke with tongues, my spirit would be praying." It is interesting when he comments on 1 Corinthians 13:10, he says that the "perfect" that is to come is the time when we are perfected in glory when we go to be with Christ. He says that the gifts of the Spirit are (take not of his use of the present tense) to compensate for our present weaknesses, but when we die, we leave our weaknesses behind, so we don't need the gifts any longer, and the full ratification will come on the Day of Judgment. It is very interesting that Calvin makes absolutely no mention of the formation of the canon of Scripture being the reason why the gifts ceased, even though the full canon of Scripture had been in existence for 1300 years when he wrote his commentary. What is ridiculous is that we have ardent Calvinists who quote 1 Corinthians 13:10 in conjunction with the canon of Scripture totally contradicting what Calvin himself said about it. It begs the question whether many of these Calvinists have actually read Calvin's own writing?

What impresses me about Calvin's commentaries, is that what he wrote in the 16th Century, much of it is so relevant for today that it is remarkable. Calvin may not have been inspired by the Holy Spirit in his writing as were the Apostles, but he was certainly enlightened and guided by the Spirit in what he set out on the pages.

John Calvin, Charles Taze Russell, Jakob Ammann, and Joseph Smith, all had their issues, both personal and theological. Strangely enough their issues were with Christianity itself. Something in the scriptures, not the overall message, but something specific that they objected to or could not rationalize and they could not shake it. For all these men, it was one or two things (categorically) that caused them to jump the logical train of thought and build denominations around their own personal difficulties with the scriptures.

Issues....confussed....overwhelmed.....it was not a matter of intelligence and then again it was. These men knew they were not stupid so they could not understand why they could not figure out the meaning of the scriptures as a whole. They were hung up, per say on these categorical theological concepts.

So what they finally came up with.....to really rectify it all internally to themselves, were just outlandish conclusions and interpretations of the Bible. So the end results were beliefs that just do not make sense and ultimately ended up alienating their denominations from main stream Christianity.

I could get into the Shakers but that would be a little more complex.

 

[CadyandZoe]

You are saying that the list I set out was not what Paul actually wrote but someone else's opinion about what he wrote?

Why are you so unwilling to study the Bible with me? Did you even read chapter 7?

1 Corinthians 7:1 Now concerning the things about which you wrote, it is good for a man not to touch a woman.

The part in italics is the question they asked. Get it? Understand? From chapter 7 to the end of the letter, Paul is answering questions and comments sent to him by the Corinthians. They wrote Paul a letter with questions, comments and concerns and asked him to comment on them.

1 Corinthians 8:1 Now concerning things sacrificed to idols, we know that we all have knowledge.

The part in italics is another concern raised by the Corinthians.

1 Corinthians 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware. You know that when you were pagans, you were led astray to the mute idols, however you were led.

The part in italics is another concern of the Corinthians, raised in the letter they sent him. The Corinthians need clarity on spirituality and especially the manifestation of supernatural beings. The word "gifts" isn't in the original text. The Corinthians are concerned with all things spiritual, which is why Paul begins the conversation with mute idols who led the people astray. How can a mute idol lead people astray? Either the idol was heard speaking or someone spoke for the idol or perhaps it was a combination of the two. However they were led, rather than discourage people away from spirituality, Paul wants the Corinthians to place a greater emphasis on the content of the message.

Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus is accursed”; and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

THAT is how we recognize the true from the false: the content of the message! How can one tell whether or not someone is speaking by the Spirit of God? We can tell by what they say.

Paul concludes the subject with statements heard by those who claim to be speaking by the Spirit of God, but are not.

Vs 2 For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries.

This is not a statement with which Paul agrees. The sentence above doesn't represent Paul's opinion; it represents the opinion of someone living in Corinth, claiming to be "spiritual." How do we know this? The sentence contains two parts, both of which defeat the argument of those claiming to be spiritual: 1) not speaking to men, and 2) speaking mysteries.

First of all, the gift of tongues, as witnessed in Acts chapter 2, involved a group of Apostles and perhaps others, who were speaking the glory of God to the crowds. In short, the Apostles were speaking to men. Those in Corinth, claiming to be spiritual by mimicking the gift of tongues, attempt to rationalize why no one understands what they are saying. They claim that "one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men." This isn't true. according to Paul, the one who is actually speaking in a tongue is prophesying to men.

Secondly, the idea that he speaks "mysteries" is another clear sign that something is wrong. He might be speaking mysteries, no one knows. By their own admission, no one understands. Not even they know what they are saying. But none of that matters to them because for their purpose, the appearance of being spiritual is all that matters. These folks are play-acting at being spiritual.

Remember, in chapter 12 Paul gave clear instructions concerning discernment, which relies on the content of the message being spoken. These alleged tongue speakers had no content to offer. Such people are to be ignored. This is why Paul says, "But one who prophesies speaks to men for edification and exhortation and consolation." And he isn't talking about predicting the future in this context. To prophesy is to speak any message from God by the Holy Spirit, which might include predictions of future events but includes all other types of messages. True spirituality is known by the content of the message. Without content, one can't claim to be speaking in a tongue.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

These rhetorical questions by Paul in Scripture (1 Cor 12:29,30) are sufficient proof that tongues are NOT for all:
Are all apostles? NO
are all prophets? NO
are all teachers? NO
are all workers of miracles? NO
Have all the gifts of healing? NO
do all speak with tongues? NO
do all interpret? NO

If tongues are not for all then it means that tongues are not a sign that people are "Spirit-filled".

This passage is talking about offices. As far as the tongues and interpretation here, it is talking about those with the gifts of diverse kinds of tongues (for messages FROM God to the congregation given to a very few), and interpretation of tongues (interpreting the message FROM God also given to a very few). Not everyone has these offices for the profit of all. BUT,

All those who believe receive the individual sign gifts of Mark 16:16-18 - Tongues, casting out demons, healing, and divine protection. Notice, interpretation of said tongues is not mentioned. That is because our prayer/praise language doesn't have to be interpreted as God, the receiver of the prayer, knows what you are saying even though you don't. But you can pray for the interpretation even without having the office of always receiving the interpretation of tongues - either one - 1 Cor. 12 or Mark 16. For instance, I have the gifts of prophecy and healing, but have not been given the OFFICE of Prophet or Healer. All Jesus said to me is that He is giving me the OFFICE of Teacher, but with other gifts I need.

Don't feel embarrassed to not know what 1 Cor. 12:30 is specifically talking about; there are Pentecostals that don't know there are two types of tongues, and make the same mistake in not recognizing that this is talking about an OFFICE.

cc: @Truman

 

[Truman]

I just hooked up with B'ney Yoseph North America...I'm looking forward to what they have to say concerning tongues!
Since they are like me, I'm sure some will share similar experiences.

 

[BloodBought 1953]

We are a light-hearted bunch at the moment.... Just wait... the serious dudes are not awake yet.

Huh?.... What?......Yaaaaawn......I just woke up ! I am a ”Serious Dude” ......spoiling for a Fight! An INTELLIGENT Fight! Naturally, Canadians will be excluded......hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.....etc......

 

[Paul Christensen]

This passage is talking about offices. As far as the tongues and interpretation here, it is talking about those with the gifts of diverse kinds of tongues (for messages FROM God to the congregation given to a very few), and interpretation of tongues (interpreting the message FROM God also given to a very few). Not everyone has these offices for the profit of all. BUT,

All those who believe receive the individual sign gifts of Mark 16:16-18 - Tongues, casting out demons, healing, and divine protection. Notice, interpretation of said tongues is not mentioned. That is because our prayer/praise language doesn't have to be interpreted as God, the receiver of the prayer, knows what you are saying even though you don't. But you can pray for the interpretation even without having the office of always receiving the interpretation of tongues - either one - 1 Cor. 12 or Mark 16. For instance, I have the gifts of prophecy and healing, but have not been given the OFFICE of Prophet or Healer. All Jesus said to me is that He is giving me the OFFICE of Teacher, but with other gifts I need.

Don't feel embarrassed to not know what 1 Cor. 12:30 is specifically talking about; there are Pentecostals that don't know there are two types of tongues, and make the same mistake in not recognizing that this is talking about an OFFICE.

cc: @Truman

I think it was in another forum I said this, but I told an anti-tongues member of the two events that happened in my own church with a close friend and myself. My close friend was praying in ordinary Pentecostal tongues in a prayer meeting and was told by a Christian brother visiting from Ghana that my friend was praising God in his own village dialect (a language my friend could never have known) and the brother told him exactly what he was saying. The other event was when I was praying in my usual tongues language when a New Zealand Maori friend told me that I was speaking encouraging things to her in the New Zealand Maori language, fluently without any trace of an accent. When I learned beginner Maori some years later, when I tried to speak it to my students, a 10 year old bilingual boy just rolled around the floor laughing at my mispronunciations.

I told the other member that he was in a catch 22 situation: either he had to acknowledge that modern Pentecostal tongues was genuine, or that my friend, the 20 people who witnessed the even, the brother from Ghana, the New Zealand Maori lady, and I were, are lying.

Expectedly, he declined to answer, because he had no answer. That meant that his anti-tongues position was shot down in flames, because he was faced with either his anti-tongues mentors were lying, and so was he, or a whole group of people who witnessed ordinary Pentecostal tongues being understood by native speaks of those tongues were lying. But the group of people who witnessed the events had no reason to lie because they didn't have an "agenda" to try and prove a point. All we all did was to witness a miracle - that someone speaking in ordinary Pentecostal tongues was in the first case praising God in a dialect spoken in a rural village in Ghana, halfway across the world from New Zealand, and in the second case, a language of the indigenous people of New Zealand. The four people involved were my friend, Terry Coburn, the Ghanaian brother, Badu Bediaka, the Maori lady Mrs Samuels, and myself.

This is more than just an "experience". These were actual live and witnessed events that really happened. Pretty hard to refute, seeing that there are at least 24 people who would stand up and say it was all true, because they were there.

 

[Paul Christensen]

in John Calvin's commentary on the book of Acts, in his comments about the falling of the Holy Spirit on the household of Cornelius, he spoke about them speaking in tongues. He says that the tongues did cease, and the reason was that many were using tongues as an ostentatious display, and therefore God removed them from the church to ensure that the work of the Holy Spirit was not discredited. Through the events that I had read about, and the events that happened in my own church (witnessed by over 20 people), it is clear that God restored that facility to the church. But, as it was with the Corinthians, many ultra-charismatics are using tongues as the same "ostentatious display" that Calvin described as the reason why tongues disappeared from the church after the 4th Century. It appears that the misuse of tongues caused the speakers to be ridiculed to the point that many good people chose to avoid receiving it, and so the gift died out. The same thing is happening today. Because of the public misuse of tongues, coupled with jerking, shaking, falling backwards, uncontrolled laughing and rolling around the floor, those who do those things are being ridiculed, and good believers are avoiding tongues because they don't want to be caught up with the kundalini stuff as well.

I predict that tongues will die out in exactly the same way as it did after the 4th Century, and in another 40 years, speaking in tongues will largely become extinct. It won't be that God has removed it from the church, but that successive generations are turning away from it and being content with saying they are filled with the Holy Spirit without choosing to pray in tongues.

 

[Enoch111]

Naturally, Canadians will be excluded...

That would be just as well since most Americans have not woken up as yet.

 

[Paul Christensen]

That would be just as well since most Americans have not woken up as yet.

Americans fall into one of three categories:
1. Those who make it happen.
2. Those who watch it happen.
3. Those who wonder what in blazes happened!

I think that American Prosperity prophets fall into the 3rd category, especially when Covid-19 happened.

 

[BloodBought 1953]

i think i went to a pentecostal church service one. It was insane. Dudes were running up and down the aisle while they sang songs, hollering and jumping. I was scared. Im a presbyterian, we’re much more calm.

“Spiritual” Show-Offs.....aka Phonies....

 

[BloodBought 1953]

The only way post-Pentecost, to be filled with the Holy Spirit- another already spirit filled believer lays hands on you.

Got any Chapter and Verse for this Hog Wash?

 

[Truman]

God will work through any denomination He wants...However He wants...I want what He wants.
People often receive the gift of tongues through the laying-on of hands.
When I received the gift of tongues, I was alone.

 

[Paul Christensen]

“Spiritual” Show-Offs.....aka Phonies....

I agree. It is nothing like the Pentecostal church I signed on with in 1966. Never saw any of the lunatic fringe behaviour right through to the late 1970s when I left the movement. You are right about the Presbyterians. I served 23 years as an elder of a suburban Presbyterian church and although they accepted my Pentecostal background, I never pushed it in my conduct and preaching. I am now in a Methodist/Presbyterian Union church which has a revival when more than 10 people turn up! Being in these churches has never compromised my continuist theology. The gifts of the Spirit are nowhere in the frame of reference of the elderly ladies with whom I fellowship, and so pushing it would be just a waste of time. So, when I take a service my reflection (Methodist for sermon) is about Christ and Him crucified, and they appreciate it. If there is any movement in the aisles, it would be hobbling on their walkers! Hahahahaha!

 

[Paul Christensen]

God will work through any denomination He wants...However He wants...I want what He wants.
People often receive the gift of tongues through the laying-on of hands.
When I received the gift of tongues, I was alone.

I would love to see the Holy Spirit fall on the old ladies in my church. That would scatter the bats in the belfry -- if we had one!