Tongues

[1stCenturyLady]

Precious friend, NO, I don't believe my reasons {as I have NONE!}, BUT:
I do believe God's Reason! Amen.

God's reason? For what? That His gift of tongues speaks blasphemy? You are not making sense.

God's gifts in the New Covenant have not ceased. NOTHING inside a covenant changes during the period of the covenant. It didn't in the Old Covenant (not a "jot or a tittle") and will not during our covenant.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

That is where the whole amazement was coming from. For all were Galileans and were not expected to be speaking other tongues or languages of other nations, nor were expected to know how to.

11 Cretans and Arabs—we hear them speaking in our own tongues the wonderful works of God.”

We (the other nations) hear them (disciples) speaking (the disciples) in our (the other nations) own tongues. That's in light of verse 2. Clear to me then is that the disciples are speaking, that is, uttering words of the languages of the other nations. It is not that the disciples were speaking their own native tongue and the other nations understand them as what they hear are their respective tongues.

13 Others mocking said, “They are full of new wine.”

These others are they who hear all of the different languages the disciples simultaneously are speaking. It’s chaos in that sense, each speaking a different tongue. That they mocked “they are full of wine”. That would not be the case if they are all speaking one tongue, their native tongue.

7 Then they were all amazed and marveled, saying to one another, “Look, are not all these who speak Galileans?

The disciples were together and probably were distinguished by their looks and appearance. They were not that sure of they were Galileans. However, they are quite sure they are native to one common place or are of one tongue.

The amazement was that they speak in different foreign tongues.

Tong
R4759

Of course they were speaking in tongues. That is without question. But the miracle for the devout Jews listening was supernatural hearing was given to each of them to hear their own language.

8 And how is it that we hear, each in our own language in which we were born? 9 Parthians and Medes and Elamites, those dwelling in Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya adjoining Cyrene, visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, 11 Cretans and Arabs—we hear them speaking in our own tongues the wonderful works of God.”

 

[BloodBought 1953]

Sometimes I wonder.....one can turn practically ANYTHING into an IDOL—- Money, Power, Food, Sports.......could “ speaking in Tongues” be a Contender? Taking something great yet giving it a prominence that was never intended? Just speculating here.....

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Sometimes I wonder.....one can turn practically ANYTHING into an IDOL—- Money, Power, Food, Sports.......could “ speaking in Tongues” be a Contender? Taking something great yet giving it a prominence that was never intended? Just speculating here.....

That only happens when we have to defend the gifts of the Holy Spirit, and the one that is a sign to the unbeliever, confirming them in their unbelief, is tongues. It is the only gift you all believe is "of the devil." That is blasphemy against God.

Tongues is not an idol. But those who use it can see the benefits.

 

[BloodBought 1953]

That only happens when we have to defend the gifts of the Holy Spirit, and the one that is a sign to the unbeliever, confirming them in their unbelief, is tongues. It is the only gift you all believe is "of the devil." That is blasphemy against God.

Tongues is not an idol. But those who use it can see the benefits.

NOTHING in ITSELF is an “ Idol” —— my point is that almost anything can be turned “ into” an Idol...

 

[1stCenturyLady]

NOTHING in ITSELF is an “ Idol” —— my point is that almost anything can be turned “ into” an Idol...

Yes, I've seen Seventh-day Adventists turn Saturday into an idol. So much so that they believe that "Sunday laws" will be the mark of the beast.

 

[Tong2020]

Of course they were speaking in tongues. That is without question. But the miracle for the devout Jews listening was supernatural hearing was given to each of them to hear their own language.

8 And how is it that we hear, each in our own language in which we were born? 9 Parthians and Medes and Elamites, those dwelling in Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya adjoining Cyrene, visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, 11 Cretans and Arabs—we hear them speaking in our own tongues the wonderful works of God.”

Speaking is the miraculous gift, not hearing. Those who receive the gift are the speakers, not the hearers.

In v.8 & 13, those of foreign tongues, hear the gifted disciples. What do they hear? Of course, their native tongues, spoken by the disciples gifted with tongues. And it amazes them, that they speak each of the native tongues of the people coming from other nations and places.

You speak of some sort of a gift of supernatural hearing received by the hearers, while the passage speaks of a supernatural gift of tongues received by the speakers, that is, the disciples, in whom the Holy Spirit had come upon.

And so, I will believe what I read in those passage, with regards the gift of tongues, as being the supernatural ability of the speaker to speak in tongues which otherwise he could not without the gift.

Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Tong
R4760

 

[Curtis]

Hi Paul,

If you remember my book, I explained what is happening, and it was the only thing that scripturally could be happening in both of those cases. It is the same thing that happened in my church in Arizona. People were praying in tongues around this girl they had brought to church, but what she HEARD was English. God was speaking to her and through hearing Him, became a Christian. When questioned, she didn't hear tongues, she heard English, but everyone else just heard the tongues. Hearing the languages of Ghana and Maori is the same thing. The tongues could have been any language, but I guarantee you, it wasn't those. They heard by the gift of interpretation of tongues, and what they heard supernaturally was languages they were familiar with. Tongues cannot be understood naturally by anyone. 1 Corinthians 14:2.

The same thing happened on the Day of Pentecost. They were speaking in tongues, but what each HEARD was their own language, and it gives a list of the languages they HEARD.

This happens also with Satan and the counterfeit. Unbelievers can hear tongues, and what they HEAR is a language they understand, but the content is blasphemy. That is why they spread the slander that tongues are of the devil. Therefore, they truly believe in their reasons for Cessationism.

Except that the tongue spoken aloud in church needs interpreted, so that tongue is unknown until interpreted.

1Co 14:27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.

1Co 14:28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

 

[Curtis]

Scripture tells us we can sing in the Spirit too. I would put that in a Prayer Language bucket. The experience mentioned at Pentecost concerning the gift of the Spirit is not given to us again in the scriptures (people speaking in different known languages) but I would not assume that it never happened again. Some translate Pauls directions concerning the orderly handling of Tongues as someone preaching to a multi cultural gathering that has attendees who speak different languages and interpreters are necessary. That it is not good to have too many interpreters trying to translate at one time. It is interesting that Tongues is briefly mentioned in scripture and almost always concerning Paul. Since Paul was the Apostle to the Gentiles who's mission was to different cultural areas in Asia Minor and the Roman Empire it makes sense that he would encounter different languages. We know he could speak two or three languages but we do not know if those disciples with him could do so. Paul said he was glad he could speak Tongues more than any of them, was he referring to language, I think so. Timothy for example might not have had that ability. Could Apollo? I think it takes a great deal of study to parse when Paul is talking about Spirit filled unknown utterances vs. speaking in different languages.

The interpretation is of an unknown tongue that is not a human language, it has nothing to do with speaking other human languages and be8ng able to interpret them.

Paul said clearly that he did not understand what he was saying when he prayed in tongues.

1Co 14:12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.

1Co 14:13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.

1Co 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Cessationist doctrine is just plain biblical illiteracy.

You answer me under a false assumption. I do not believe Cessationism. I do not believe that spiritual gifts ceased in the Apostolic age. My interest in this thread is to promote a correct understanding of the gift of tongues and a correct understanding of Paul's letter to the Corinthians.

I do not agree with your view that the Corinthian church was ignorant about spiritual gifts or that they had forbidden people from speaking in tongues. Rather, some people were actually speaking in tongues, while other people were doing various other things, claiming to be speaking in tongues when in fact they were not. These disparate acts, all claiming to be the same thing, raised questions in the minds of the believers in Corinth, which is partly why they wrote a letter to him. They had questions about the true nature of the gift and how to understand what is happening.

By the way, when Paul exhorts the Corinthians to prophesy he isn't necessarily talking about the gift of prophecy. What do I mean? He begins chapter 14 with a general exhortation.

Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy. 1 Corinthians 14:1

In general, to "prophesy" is to speak by the Spirit of God. (Refer to 1 Corinthians 12:3) There are many different spiritual gifts that fall under this general category: predicting the future is one way to prophesy, but so is teaching, preaching, and evangelizing. All of these gifts fall under the general category of prophesying.

In the verse above, Paul is talking about prophesying in the general sense, including all aspects of edifying the church. The text that follows is NOT a comparison between two spiritual gifts, i.e. tongues and prophecy. Rather, Paul's goal is to draw a sharp distinction between actual tongues and other acts which people have mistaken for tongues. Paul will argue that actual tongues is one of the many means to "prophesy."

If a person is speaking to themselves, this is not tongues, it's something else. Actual tongues is speaking to the church by the spirit of God. In other words, the gift of tongues is another way to prophesy. If a person is praying to themselves or praying in the spirit, this is not tongues, this is something else. And I am not saying it's wrong to pray silently and I'm not saying that praying silently "in the spirit" isn't a valid spiritual practice. I'm simply explicating Paul's view that the actual gift of tongues involves public speaking by the spirit of God. To speak in tongues IS to prophesy.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Where does it say that in the pages of the New Testament? Or are you just adding your own opinion to God's Word?

I have drawn an inference from the text. This is what we all do. Some of our inferences are correct, and some of our inferences are incorrect. My conclusion that God was using the gift of tongues as evidence of his will that Gentiles be included in the body of Christ comes mainly from Acts chapter 15, where we read Peter give his defense. In that context, he told the council that when he preached the gospel to Cornelius and his family, gave evidence of the Spirit saying, "And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith."

The mistake we make is to assume that since this happened to Cornelius, it's supposed to happen to every believer. I don't think every believer will speak in tongues to give evidence of a clean heart. This may happen to some of us, but not necessarily to everyone.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Close, but no cigar, as they say.

Paul wrote there are DIVERS tongues, which is archaic English for DIVERSITIES of tongues, meaning more than one type exists.

There’s the universally understood tongue that occurred only once in scripture on Pentecost, there’s the unknown tongue never understood by any man, that you cited, then there’s the tongue spoken aloud to the congregation as a message from God to them, that is interpreted.

Thus there are three types of tongues according to the scriptures.

Maranatha

Shalom Aleichem

Paul isn't suggesting that tongues manifests itself in various ways. He is saying that many different languages exist. Speaking an unknown language isn't another form of tongues. Speaking aloud in a church in a language that no one understands isn't speaking by the Spirit of God. If a person is actually manifesting the gift of tongues, the speaker himself can translate because he knows what he intended to say.

 

[Pearl]

I know what I have in this case if anyone but God does. You don't believe my witness or testimony with regard to my gift and the way I communicate with God? I will not argue the point nor will I exchange scriptures with you to prove anything. Having had this gift for many years I have previously been questioned about it within as well as outside of the scripture studying the subject so that I might know what people on the "other" side were saying. I did not study for their benefit but for my own.

I do not and never have said that everyone is able to speak in tongues or must speak in tongues. I say that I do and that I am not the only one. Because there are false ones is not evidence that there are no real ones.

Does God exist? Are there any false gods?

Well said Amadeus. My own experience is that speaking/praying/singing in tongues is good and uplifting and makes me feel closer to God. Having said that I don't do it so much any more and think that I have been inhibited by other Christians in debates like this. Please pray for me to be released from that.

 

[amadeus]

Well said Amadeus. My own experience is that speaking/praying/singing in tongues is good and uplifting and makes me feel closer to God. Having said that I don't do it so much any more and think that I have been inhibited by other Christians in debates like this. Please pray for me to be released from that.

Praying for you sister! You need to use all that God has given you and never mind what others think about it. I have had my down times, but what the enemy wants is for us to get frustrated and to quit on God.

Just because we apparently cannot see or hear or touch God sometimes is not a reason to quit on Him or to neglect the gifts He has given us.

We need to love Him because we love Him.

Loving Him means following Him even though mocking, pain and suffering may be the superficial result. I say, superficial, for that is what it is ultimately even though for now it may seem like the end of the world...

"Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.
And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt." Matt 26:38-39

"And they stripped him, and put on him a scarlet robe.
And when they had platted a crown of thorns, they put it upon his head, and a reed in his right hand: and they bowed the knee before him, and mocked him, saying, Hail, King of the Jews!
And they spit upon him, and took the reed, and smote him on the head.
And after that they had mocked him, they took the robe off from him, and put his own raiment on him, and led him away to crucify him." Matt 27:28-31

"And they found the stone rolled away from the sepulchre.
And they entered in, and found not the body of the Lord Jesus." Luke 24:2-3

"He is not here, but is risen..." Luke 24:6

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Speaking is the miraculous gift, not hearing. Those who receive the gift are the speakers, not the hearers.

In v.8 & 13, those of foreign tongues, hear the gifted disciples. What do they hear? Of course, their native tongues, spoken by the disciples gifted with tongues. And it amazes them, that they speak each of the native tongues of the people coming from other nations and places.

You speak of some sort of a gift of supernatural hearing received by the hearers, while the passage speaks of a supernatural gift of tongues received by the speakers, that is, the disciples, in whom the Holy Spirit had come upon.

And so, I will believe what I read in those passage, with regards the gift of tongues, as being the supernatural ability of the speaker to speak in tongues which otherwise he could not without the gift.

Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Tong
R4760

You have never heard of the supernatural gift of INTERPRETATION OF TONGUES?

4 There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: 8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Except that the tongue spoken aloud in church needs interpreted, so that tongue is unknown until interpreted.

1Co 14:27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.

1Co 14:28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

Of course. So what is your point pertaining to what I wrote? Do you know the difference between prayer/praise TO God, and messages FROM God that must always be interpreted? Verse 28 is about the office of interpreter. If that person isn't there, then those with the office of message giver must keep silent.

 

[Truman]

Shun de lauca...sun de leka is a message to the enemy! Tongue #3 - warring tongues!
"All the peoples of the earth are regarded as nothing. He does as He pleases with the powers of heaven and the peoples of the earth. No one can hold back His hand or say to Him, "What have You done?" Hallelujah!

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Speaking is the miraculous gift, not hearing. Those who receive the gift are the speakers, not the hearers.

In v.8 & 13, those of foreign tongues, hear the gifted disciples. What do they hear? Of course, their native tongues, spoken by the disciples gifted with tongues. And it amazes them, that they speak each of the native tongues of the people coming from other nations and places.

You speak of some sort of a gift of supernatural hearing received by the hearers, while the passage speaks of a supernatural gift of tongues received by the speakers, that is, the disciples, in whom the Holy Spirit had come upon.

And so, I will believe what I read in those passage, with regards the gift of tongues, as being the supernatural ability of the speaker to speak in tongues which otherwise he could not without the gift.

Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

You have never heard of the supernatural gift of INTERPRETATION OF TONGUES?

4 There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: 8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.

Of course I have read about the gift of the interpretation of tongues.

And I will make the same point here, the gift is given to the believer/converted, those who have the Holy Spirit upon them, and not to those who do not have the Holy Spirit.

So, it remains, the Acts 2 event does not speak of a gift of a supernatural hearing received by the hearers, nor of the gift of interpretation of tongues received by the hearers, who were unbelievers and who have not the Holy Spirit.

Tong
R4763

 

[TEXBOW]

You have never heard of the supernatural gift of INTERPRETATION OF TONGUES?

4 There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: 8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.

I do not think that the gift of interpretation of tongues is what the crowd had at Pentecost. We see no evidence that the crowd who ask if these men where drunk are even believers. I don't think the Holy Spirit was poured out on the crowd with a gift of understanding unknown Tongues. It's simply what it says it is. No need to embellish this scripture. The crowd heard them talking in their native languages. I find it interesting that in verse 4 is says "tongues" "gave them utterance" but in verse 6 it uses the word "language" when describing the reaction from those who gathered. Some of them mocked those who were speaking in tongues, others doubted and some were amazed. They do not sound like a group with the Holy Spirit poured upon them. A simple textual understanding of this that those who are given the gift of speaking the unknown to them utterance is called "tongues" and those on the receiving end of this gift refer to it as a language. The giver calls it a tongue because they do not understand it and the receiver calls it a language.

 

[TEXBOW]

Of course I have read about the gift of the interpretation of tongues.

And I will make the same point here, the gift is given to the believer/converted, those who have the Holy Spirit upon them, and not to those who do not have the Holy Spirit.

So, it remains, the Acts 2 event does not speak of a gift of a supernatural hearing received by the hearers, nor of the gift of interpretation of tongues received by the hearers, who were unbelievers and who have not the Holy Spirit.

Tong
R4763

Correct. Those that gathered had mockers not a Holy Spirit gift.