Tongues

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Paul Christensen

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Agreed. But let's bear in mind that Cornelius already had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit before Peter arrived.
Luke doesn't say that. The description is that Cornelius was a God Fearing proselyte. He was not even baptised with John the Baptizer's baptism. He had never heard the Gospel of Christ, and may not have been aware of the ministry of Jesus at all. The reason why he sent for Peter is that an angel appeared to him and instructed him to send for Peter because Peter has something important to say to him. The whole thing was set up to ensure that the pious Roman Centurion and his household and friends could hear the Gospel, be saved and filled with the Holy Spirit.

It is important that we read the Bible for what it actually says and not add to it by reading in things that are not there.
 

GTW27

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I believe that tongues are a language spoken somewhere in the world. It is just that they are not learned by the speaker but is inspired by the Holy Spirit. I don't believe that they are heavenly languages because why have multiple languages in heaven. It is interesting that before the tower of Babel, there was only one language spoken, and the only reason for the institution of multiple languages was to counter the pride of man. It is also believable that the language Adam and Eve spoke was the same one that God and the angels spoke, because before the Fall, Adam and God had fellowship together. Also, the snake spoke the same language as Eve. So, to say that tongues is one of the languages of heaven is pure fantasy. When Paul said, "Though I speak with the tongues of men and angels" he was not talking about the gift of tongues at all. He was saying that even though he was the most eloquent man in heaven and earth, if he didn't have love he would just be an empty noise.

Also, in 1 Corinthians, when Paul was writing about tongues, he implied that tongues was a world language, because he said that there are many languages in the world. That's enough of a clue for me that tongues is a language spoken somewhere in the world. There is enough proof for me that modern tongues is a world language through the actual events that took place in my own church during the 1970s, where a close friend in a prayer meeting of over 20 people, spoke in tongues, and a Ghanaian visitor told him that he was praising God in his own rural village dialect, a language my friend, who had never been outside of New Zealand could never have known. Also, when I was praying in tongues quietly in a church service, a New Zealand Maori lady sitting beside me told me that I spoke encouraging things to her in fluent Maori language. Even when I learned basic Maori some years later and tried to speak it to my 10 year old pupils in class, a bilingual boy just rolled around laughing at my mispronunciations.

Now, the catch 22 situation is this - either one has to acknowledge that modern tongues can be an understandable language in some circumstances where there is a hearer native in that language, but unlearned by the speaker - or that my friend, the Ghanaian visitor, 20 people in that prayer meeting, the Maori lady, and me, were all lying for the sake of supporting the truth of modern tongues.

I put this same question to anti-tongues members on two other forum sites, and they never replied. I suspect they were flummoxed. I think that the honest comment from an anti-tongues person is to say "I don't believe in modern speaking in tongues", rather than teach others that it is false and not for today. That way they are stating their own opinion, and not setting themselves up as an arbiter on what is true or false in modern Christian worship.
"Though I speak with the tongues of men and angels" means "Though I speak with the tongues of men and angels"
 

Enoch111

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"Though I speak with the tongues of men and angels" means "Though I speak with the tongues of men and angels"
Paul simply introduced a hyperbole here, since the Bible does not record anything called "angelic" language. Each time angels spoke, they spoke human languages (Hebrew or Aramaic). And even when Paul was in Heaven, he heard things which he understood (probably in Hebrew) but was not allowed to disclose.
 
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GTW27

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Paul simply introduced a hyperbole here, since the Bible does not record anything called "angelic" language. Each time angels spoke, they spoke human languages (Hebrew or Aramaic). And even when Paul was in Heaven, he heard things which he understood (probably in Hebrew) but was not allowed to disclose.

and "I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was called up to the third heaven" means "I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was called up to the third heaven".
 

Enoch111

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and "I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was called up to the third heaven" means "I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was called up to the third heaven".
Yeah. But we have Aunty Jane telling us that this is entirely debatable, Paul may not have meant God's Heaven, etc. Did you ever imagine that a day would come when people would try and put a spin on plain language?
 

GTW27

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Yeah. But we have Aunty Jane telling us that this is entirely debatable, Paul may not have meant God's Heaven, etc. Did you ever imagine that a day would come when people would try and put a spin on plain language?
and "this man" means " "this man"
 

Paul Christensen

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Paul simply introduced a hyperbole here, since the Bible does not record anything called "angelic" language. Each time angels spoke, they spoke human languages (Hebrew or Aramaic). And even when Paul was in Heaven, he heard things which he understood (probably in Hebrew) but was not allowed to disclose.
I agree with you here (see my previous post). 1 Corinthians 13:1 has nothing to do with the gift of tongues. It was all about love. His comment "tongues of men and angels" was about eloquence, not Holy Spirit gifting.
 
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GTW27

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He is not necessarily talking about himself. To say he did is to add something to the Scripture.
Exactly. Thus, the words to you and him. If even the demons flee from this language( and they understand it and do) and you know how I received them, do you truly think they are earthly tongues only, like from the Congo. There can be a time when they are from The Congo, but that would be The Lord's doing in a corporate setting to bring Glory to His Name and help someone from the Congo to believe, and thus be saved. So
"Though I speak with the tongues of men and angels" means "Though I speak with the tongues of men and angels" Paul said it perfect.
 

Tong2020

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"Though I speak with the tongues of men and angels" means "Though I speak with the tongues of men and angels"

And what of “tongues”? Is it the part of you or is it languages?

Tong
R4809
 

Tong2020

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and "I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was called up to the third heaven" means "I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was called up to the third heaven".

And what about “know”? Is it having knowledge of or have a relationship with?

Tong
R4810
 
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CadyandZoe

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Luke doesn't say that. The description is that Cornelius was a God Fearing proselyte. He was not even baptised with John the Baptizer's baptism. He had never heard the Gospel of Christ, and may not have been aware of the ministry of Jesus at all. The reason why he sent for Peter is that an angel appeared to him and instructed him to send for Peter because Peter has something important to say to him. The whole thing was set up to ensure that the pious Roman Centurion and his household and friends could hear the Gospel, be saved and filled with the Holy Spirit.
Good points. How did Cornelius know to send for Peter?
 

CadyandZoe

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He is not necessarily talking about himself. To say he did is to add something to the Scripture.
@GTW27 @Enoch111 @Tong2020

Actually, Paul is talking about himself. He speaks about his experience in the third person so as to avoid conceit, but we know he was talking about himself because of what he says further down in the text.

He begins chapter 12 with a statement about his own visions and revelations. 2 Corinthians 12

12:1 Boasting is necessary, though it is not profitable; but I will go on to visions and revelations of the Lord.

He then describes a vision of "a man" he knows, followed by the result of having this vision.

12:2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago . . .

12:7 Because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, for this reason, to keep me from exalting myself, there was given me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to torment me—to keep me from exalting myself!

We see from verse 7 that "the man" is Paul himself. He is the one who had visions and revelations and he is the one whom God gave a thorn in the flesh in order to keep him from exalting himself. Paul is boasting about a experiences he himself had witnessed, employing a writing style typical of that era, i.e. speaking in the third person. John the Apostle did the same thing in his gospel and so did Josephus the historian when recording what he personally witnessed and experienced.

Sometimes when an author writes about his or her own encounter or experience, he or she will employ the third person perspective in order to avoid the appearance of conceit or arrogance. Paul is talking about his own visions, using the third person perspective, in order to avoid sounding arrogant, especially because God gave him a thorn in the flesh to keep him from exalting himself.
 

Tong2020

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@GTW27 @Enoch111 @Tong2020

Actually, Paul is talking about himself. He speaks about his experience in the third person so as to avoid conceit, but we know he was talking about himself because of what he says further down in the text.

He begins chapter 12 with a statement about his own visions and revelations. 2 Corinthians 12

12:1 Boasting is necessary, though it is not profitable; but I will go on to visions and revelations of the Lord.

He then describes a vision of "a man" he knows, followed by the result of having this vision.

12:2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago . . .

12:7 Because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, for this reason, to keep me from exalting myself, there was given me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to torment me—to keep me from exalting myself!

We see from verse 7 that "the man" is Paul himself. He is the one who had visions and revelations and he is the one whom God gave a thorn in the flesh in order to keep him from exalting himself. Paul is boasting about a experiences he himself had witnessed, employing a writing style typical of that era, i.e. speaking in the third person. John the Apostle did the same thing in his gospel and so did Josephus the historian when recording what he personally witnessed and experienced.

Sometimes when an author writes about his or her own encounter or experience, he or she will employ the third person perspective in order to avoid the appearance of conceit or arrogance. Paul is talking about his own visions, using the third person perspective, in order to avoid sounding arrogant, especially because God gave him a thorn in the flesh to keep him from exalting himself.

I share the view that Paul was talking about himself there.

Tong
R4818
 

GTW27

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And what of “tongues”? Is it the part of you or is it languages?

Tong
R4809
Blessings in Christ Jesus. All of the gifts are part of the greatest Gift. The Lord. It is The Lord working in and through a person. And The Lord said, "apart from Me you can do nothing". For me, this is too late, as He says, "I will never leave you nor will I forsake you." And when this truly happens, one no longer is about self, but the love of God transforms them into being about others.
 

Truman

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His dominion is an eternal dominion...He does what He want, He doesn't ask our opinion!
 

1stCenturyLady

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You have FLATLY DENIED what the Bible says about the gift of the Holy Spirit being given to those who believe. That in itself would be a doctrine of demons.

Now you are being confusing. Are you saying I don't believe the gifts are given to those who believe, or that the Bible doesn't teach that the gifts are given to those who believe? What exactly do you believe is a doctrine of demons? What have I flatly denied, seeing as it sounds like you are contradicting what I'm saying. If you believe that Bible DOESN'T say that the gifts are given to those who believe, then it is you who believe a doctrine of demons, not I, seeing as I quote the Bible. Who or what spirit are you quoting?
 

TEXBOW

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Now you are being confusing. Are you saying I don't believe the gifts are given to those who believe, or that the Bible doesn't teach that the gifts are given to those who believe? What exactly do you believe is a doctrine of demons? What have I flatly denied, seeing as it sounds like you are contradicting what I'm saying. If you believe that Bible DOESN'T say that the gifts are given to those who believe, then it is you who believe a doctrine of demons, not I, seeing as I quote the Bible. Who or what spirit are you quoting?

1 Corinthians 12:4-11

4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. 8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

It seems obvious to me that not all gifts would be obvious to others. I do not have a means to measure someones faith for example. Wisdom, knowledge?

Ephesians 1:13
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise,
 

Paul Christensen

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And what about “know”? Is it having knowledge of or have a relationship with?

Tong
R4810
The Greek word used here is οἶδα, meaning "I know".
The word for "relationship" is Σχέση. Therefore if Paul is saying "I know a man" he would, and did, use "oida". If he meant that he had a relationship with the man caught up, he would have used the word "schese" The sentence would be "eko ten schesen" meaning, "I have the relationship [with]." But Paul said "oida anthropon" meaning, "I know a man".
 
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