You need to meet my legalistic Aunt.... I think they might be related...
Tongues
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Well, Precious Addy, I'm so glad you are LEARNING, so, BEFORE this thread
goes REALLY DEEP south, and I have to leave, because of more accusations
after I already listed some problems in post #170, I will post my complete
Bible "study" here {in case you missed it} for you {Even if no one else wants it, because "I am now a liar"}; you are A Very Precious sister. Thanks for listening...
...See you in God’s Great GloryLand! ♫ :) ↑
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Precious friend(s), surely, we All {In Fellowship With our LORD JESUS}, do
know And Understand And agree (1 Corinthians 1 : 9-10 KJB!),
on This Important Verse Of God!, Correct?:
"And Now Abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but
The Greatest of these is Charity!" (1_Corinthians_13 : 13 KJB!)
But, how about This trio of gifts - Are they for us today?:
Modern Day prophet(ess)? Speaking in tongues? Word of knowledge?
There is, I believe, a Very Simple Solution, found In The
Perfect {Which "Has come," And we have}, Pure And
Preserved Word of God, The Bible, Prayerfully and Carefully studied:
“...Though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all
mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that
I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing…”
Does God Still Have these in effect Today?
What Saith The Pure, Preserved, Precious And Perfect Scriptures?
“...Charity suffereth long...(+14 others!)...Charity never faileth...
...BUT Whether there be PROPHECIES, they SHALL FAIL;
whether there be TONGUES, they SHALL CEASE; whether there
be KNOWLEDGE, it shall VANISH AWAY. For we know in part, and
we PROPHESY IN PART.”
The prophecies SHALL FAIL? Who believes that? Surely not
the prophecy experts, correct? Or, one could ask, when?
(A) At the Coming End Of Time {Perfect New Heavens and New Earth?},
when there are No more prophecies to be fulfilled? Or:
(B) At The Second Coming of CHRIST, Who Is “Perfect,”
But, with still More Remaining prophecies To Be Fulfilled?
Then, we wonder, what Exactly does this mean?
“But when That Which Is Perfect Is Come, then
that which is In Part SHALL BE DONE AWAY.”
(1_Corinthians_13:1-10 KJB!)
Since (A) And (B) above do not make sense about "prophecies,"
may we then suggest for your Careful/Prayerful Consideration?:
(C) Has not "That Which IS PERFECT" Already COME?
IF so, Then “that which is in part” = the “gift of tongues” has Ceased,
the gift of “the word of knowledge” has Vanished, And the “gift of
prophecy” has Failed! IF so, then we kindly ask:
(1) Does this not explain Why missionaries Have To Study/Learn
"foreign" languages, Before departing to the country God Called
them to serve? Because, the “gift of tongues” has Ceased?
(2) Where does This Truth leave Ellen White and Seventh Day Adventism?
And, ALL Other so-called “prophets/prophetesses”?
Because, the “gift of prophecy” has Failed?
(3) What about All The watchmen prophecies and failing "dreams and
visions Date-Setters" of The Great GRACE Departure { aka rapture }?...
Because “the word of knowledge” has Vanished?
Not apologizing for So Many questions, just trying my best To Get To God's
Word Of Truth, for me, {and Precious others who may be Confused}, And
Then ALL of the pending Confusion would Be ENDED (1Co 14:33), Right?:
...Need Bible Confirmation, correct?:
"Whereof I am made a minister, according to The Dispensation
of God Which is given to me for you, to fulfil [ Complete! Or Fill Up!! ]
The Word of God (Perfect?)"
(Colossians_1 : 25 cp Psalms 12 : 6-7; 138 : 2 KJB!)
If “That ( neuter gender ) Which is Perfect" is Not The
Perfect CHRIST ( Masculine Gender ), Then Is This not The
Only Other Choice?:
The Pure And Perfect Written Word Of God,
HIS Precious And Holy Scriptures?
Further Biblical Confirmation!:
"The Words Of The LORD Are Pure Words: As silver tried in a
furnace of earth, Purified Seven Times! THOU Shalt Keep Them,
O LORD, THOU Shalt Preserve Them from this generation For Ever!"
( Psalms_12 : 6-7 KJB! )
"I will worship toward THY holy temple, and praise THY Name for
THY Lovingkindness and for THY Truth: for THOU Hast Magnified
Thy WORD Above All THY {Perfect?} Name!" (Psalms_138 : 2 KJB!)
Wait! Critics claim God's Preserved Word "is NOT PERFECT"? So, these 3 gifts
are "still in effect"? OK, Another relevant question looms: Why in heaven's name
Would "God MAGNIFY HIS Word Above ALL Of His HOLY Name," IF IT is
"IMperfect"???
I'm Definitely NOT apologizing Nor retracting that IMPORTANT question!!!
Therefore, HIS Word Is The Absolute Final Authority! And
God Warns!: All "who think Above, or, Exceed or Add to IT!":
"And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to
myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us
NOT TO THINK ABOVE THAT WHICH IS WRITTEN,
that no one of you be puffed up for one against another."
(1_Corinthians_4 : 6 KJB!)
{Sad that Many "self-proclaimed" [whatevers] do this Very Thing, Correct?}
...Finally, IF TRUTH!:
(4) WHY would any child Of God today, "settle for Less { that which
is in Part! }," When they Could Have ALL Of What God Has For them?:
"Who also declared unto us your LOVE In The Spirit. For this cause
we also, since the day we heard it , do not cease to pray for you,
and to desire that ye Might Be Filled With The Knowledge Of HIS
Will In All Wisdom And Spiritual Understanding!" (Colossians_1 : 8-9!)
"That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together In
LOVE, and Unto All Riches Of The Full Assurance Of Understanding,
to the acknowledgement Of The Mystery of God, And Of The Father,
And Of CHRIST!" (Colossians_2 : 2!)
Because God Has Done Away With That "which was In Part!" Amen?
Thus, the humble Confusion Clearing Conclusion of this study, is that:
The trio of Expired gifts of "prophecy, word of knowledge, And
speaking in tongues," Have Been Superseded Today, By God,
With The Remaining, And NOW Abiding THREE Gifts Of:
"faith, hope, And love In Grace, Pure GRACE!"
And, The GREATEST Of These Is LOVE!!
+
”All the law Is FULFILLED In ONE WORD: LOVE thy neighbor!”
(Galatians 5 : 14; Romans 13 : 8-10 KJB!) Amen?
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Blessed Be The Name of The LORD, And HIS Perfect, Pure, And
"Exalted Above All His Name," WORD For Ever And Ever!! Amen?
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PS Addy, IF I do not return here, please know that Romans 16:17 Is The
Biblical Reason That I Must FORGIVE the critics, And, obey God! Amen?
1Co 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
1Co 12:31 But earnestly desire the higher gifts. And I will show you a still more excellent way.
If every believer lacks nothing, there would be no reason to desire any of the gifts...
Shalom
We are told to earnestly seek the higher spiritual gifts.
1Co 12:31 But earnestly desire the higher gifts. And I will show you a still more excellent way.
Since Pentecost, receiving the Holy Spirit baptism for speaking in tongues, requires an already spirit filled believer to lay hands on them.
Act 8:17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
Act 8:18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
Act 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
Act 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
Maranatha
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Yes, this is essentially correct. In my opinion, most people confuse the gift of tongues with glossolalia. Both are valid experiences.
Glossolalia, in a Christian context, is the utterance of inarticulate sounds, whereby one wishes to give expression to a highly emotional feeling of joy, exuberance, enthusiasm, elation and things such as these. On the other hand, one might wish to express an extreme emotion of pain, helplessness, weakness, penitence, contrition, supplication, pleading etc. In either case, one might experience the outcry of inarticulate sounds.
Paul mentions this in his letter to the Romans wherein he speaks about the inarticulate sounds one might make during a time of intense prayer. In that context he is talking about the sufferings of the present time and the anxious longings for the restoration of creation. During such intense feelings of helplessness and a longing for the return of Jesus, we may find ourselves, not knowing what to pray, speaking with inarticulate sounds. He encourages the believers to remember that as we pray, the Spirit joins with us, knowing what needs to be said.
In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. Romans 8:26-27
In this case, we are the ones doing the groaning. Our groaning is too deep for words, but he who searches the hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, who intercedes on our behalf according to the will of God. We may not know what to pray, but the Spirit does. We take comfort knowing that even during those times when we simply can't find the words to say what we really want to say, the Spirit helps us.
I mentioned earlier that this was in a Christian context. In fact, other religions practice glossolalia, even pagans and polytheists, which is why Paul needed to correct the Corinthian church. They were possibly speaking glossolalia, mistakenly believing it was speaking in tongues.
The gift of speaking in tongues is NOT the gift of speaking another language. Rather, the gift of speaking in tongues is a miracle performed by the Holy Spirit whereby a preacher's words are heard by foreigners in their native tongue. The first we hear of this miracle is found in the Second Chapter of Acts.
Now there were Jews living in Jerusalem, devout men from every nation under heaven. And when this sound occurred, the crowd came together, and were bewildered because each one of them was hearing them speak in his own language. They were amazed and astonished, saying, “Why, are not all these who are speaking Galileans? And how is it that we each hear them in our own language to which we were born? Acts 2:5-8
A modern example of this might involve a preacher, speaking in English, but simultaneously being heard in French, German, Italian, Spanish and other languages. The one speaking is not speaking a language foreign to him; he is speaking his own native tongue. He is being heard in other languages instead. This may explain why some people in the first century thought the men were drunk. It would be like watching a movie translated into another language. The words we hear don't correspond to the movement of the lips.
@CadyandZoe ... You have expressed precisely and exactly how I see it. Leave it to you to make such an eloquent explanation in PLAIN ENGLISH.
Thank you for this.
Thank you for this.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Thanks. You model something that I am learning from you. That is, the one filled with joy is a joy to others. May the Lord give you an extra helping of ice cream. :) hehe
I really wish you wouldn't do this on my thread. If you want promote your belief that Tongues no longer exists, then go start your own thread...please!
You are welcome to express your belief, not download an agenda.
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CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
I agree with your post here, but I think it necessary to correct a misconception. Paul wasn't suggesting that all should speak in tongues or that he expected that all would speak in tongues eventually. He wished that all would speak in tongues, but only under the proviso that the result was a prophetic word. When Paul says, "I wish you all spoke in tongues", he means to say, "I wish you were all giving us a message from God."
In other words, in Paul's view, the Holy Spirit grants the gift of tongues so that those who are preaching the word of God, or speaking for God in some way, have a broader audience. Tongues is not a gift that stands on its own; it serves the preacher or the prophet. Paul is helping the Corinthian believers, and us, identify a genuine miracle of tongues. That is, if someone is speaking in tongues, everyone will hear a word from God.
Not everyone feels that way about me... but THANK you for this.... I will take this to my heart... YOU are one of the few who seems to understand me...and I have told you this before.
Tongues are an unknown language.
1Co 14:12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.
1Co 14:13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.
1Co 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
1Co 14:15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
1Co 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
Maranatha
On the contrary, there’s the personal prayer language tongue that no one ever understands, as well as a prophetical tongue spoken in church and interpreted:
1Co 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
1Co 14:3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
1Co 14:4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
1Co 14:5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
And praying in the spirit is part of our spiritual warfare:
Eph 6:17 and take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God,
Eph 6:18 praying at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication. To that end, keep alert with all perseverance, making supplication for all the saints,
Paul said there are diversities of tongues, meaning more than one kind.
1Co 12:8 For to one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit,
1Co 12:9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit,
1Co 12:10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.
Maranatha
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
I respectfully disagree. Ever wonder why, other than Acts chapter 2, Paul's letter to the Corinthians is the only other place where the gift of tongues is mentioned? Apparently, the gift of tongues was of special interest to the Corinthians, perhaps due to the fact that they experienced something similar during idol worship. For this reason, Paul felt it was necessary to correct their mistaken assumptions about the gift.
1 Corinthians 12 opens with a remark about how they used to be led astray by idols. Apparently, the Corinthians were mistakenly associating the gift of tongues with another phenomenon associated with idol worship. And while Paul doesn't want to discourage them from speaking in tongues by the Holy Spirit, he doesn't want them to be led astray by idols any more. To this effort, he decides to contrast what the Holy Spirit does with what an Idol might do.
A person chosen to speak for the idol, or at least appear to speak for the idol, speaks for the spirit behind the idol. Elsewhere Paul identifies the spirit as a demon. He tells them, "[N]o one speaking by the Spirit of God says, 'Jesus is accursed'; and no one can say, 'Jesus is Lord,' except by the Holy Spirit. In this context, the concept of an "unknown tongue" doesn't enter into the picture because Paul's opening remarks are predicated on what a spirit might say. An idol will attempt to lead the people astray, but those speaking by the Holy Spirit will bring everyone to the truth about Jesus.
Now, when we get to chapter 14, the subject begins to change. The NASB translates 1 Corinthians 14:1 this way: "Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy." Notice that the word "gifts" is in italics indicating that the word is supplied by the translator and not in the original text. Paul actually said something like "concerning spirituals" or "spiritual practices." In this context, "speaking in a tongue" (singular) is not the same thing as "speaking in tongues" (plural) "Speaking in a tongue" is a spiritual practice, not a spiritual gift. Speaking in tongues is "speaking by the Holy Spirit" in order to say that Jesus is Lord, for instance. The spiritual practice of speaking in a tongue, as Paul says, is the practice of speaking mysteries inwardly to yourself, using an unknown tongue.
Apparently, there were a few people in the church who were "speaking in a tongue" out loud, which is not the same thing as "speaking by the Holy Spirit." He tells these folks, don't "speak in a tongue" out loud unless you can interpret. Notice he doesn't say, "unless you can find someone to interpret for you." Why? Because those few folks who were "speaking in a tongue" (singular) out loud, know what they intended to say. If anything, they should be able to repeat what they meant to say in the native language.
In order to understand Paul's arguments in his letter to the Corinthians, we need to be aware that he often speaks for other people using the first person. For instance, we would be mistaken to think that Paul is actually saying 1 Corinthians 14:14. Rather, he is articulating the opinion of some in Corinth. They would say, "I pray in an unknown tongue, and though I don't understand what I say, it is my spirit that prays." Paul answers, "what good is that?! I will pray with the spirit AND I will pray with understanding also."
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
In 1 Corinthians 14, Paul is critical of those who claim to use a personal prayer language. That may seem like a worthy spiritual practice, but it really isn't. Paul says that when he prays in his spirit, he prays with understanding.
Paul Christensen
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I see that you made reference to gender of the Greek word. The fact is that the gender of Greek words is not connected to normal human gender. Masculine, feminine and neuter are grammatical terms involving the particular ending of the word stem and that a masculine noun can be for a female, and a feminine noun could be for a male. Therefore, if "the perfect" is expressed as a neuter Greek noun, it does not necessarily show something neither male nor female. It could quite easily show a masculine concept. Even a beginning Greek scholar knows that!
Also, cobbling verses together to make the Bible say what you want it to say doesn't prove anything. But an expository study of the whole of 1 Corinthians 12, 13, and 14 in context shows the truth about the gifts of the Holy Spirit and their continuation right through to the end of the church age which is still to come. We are still in the church age, and therefore the gifts of the Spirit have not ceased.
You say not to think above what is written, and yet you are doing exactly that - you are adding to what has been written about the gifts of the Spirit. I don't see anywhere in the New Testament that the gifts of the Spirit were meant to be limited to the Apostolic Age. Also, when Paul referred to the Scriptures being perfect, he was talking about the Old Testament Septuagint, which he used to preach the Gospel. There were no New Testament Scriptures existent when he wrote to the Corinthians and to Timothy. So he could not say about the perfection of Scriptures that did not exist in his time.
So, there are so many holes in your dissertation about the cessation of tongues and prophecy, so large that one could drive a London bus through them!
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Better re read. He said he prays two ways - with His spirit AND with the understanding..
Tree of life Jewish messianic version, aka TLV:
1Co 14:14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful.
1Co 14:15 What is it then? I will pray in my spirit, but I will also pray with my mind. I will sing praises with my spirit, and I will also sing praises with my mind.
He clearly says he doesn’t understand what is being said when speaking in tongues bec@use his mind is unfruitful - thus he prays both ways - with his understanding, and in tongues.
Verse 14 gives the correct meaning of verse 15, which is why it’s helpful to read surrounding scriptures of a proof text, because a text with no context is frequently out of context.
Maranatha
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