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Tongues?

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by medicalmatt, May 2, 2008.

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  1. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    Even though I know what you say is true, I just hate it when satan has people blinded. But just as I did...we have to chose to believe or we will not see or experience....I will keep praying....
    And what if Im not the one blined by Satan because I tell you You are the one not following his Word not walking after Christ not following the disciples why is this only an American thing except where the belief has been taken over seas why didnt the early church ever speak about it why did men invent it Why did not Jesus come up out of the water babbling. I know what I say to God. Do you?????? As I say its not my place to tell anyone how to pray but I do take objection to your preverting scripture.
     
  2. truth_seeker

    truth_seeker New Member

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    Truth seeker if you havent already this is a very good link describing the language used and truth of scripture http://www.entrewave.com/view/reformedonli...%20part%205.htm
    amen. this was definetly a good read. if only people like William Seymour were aware of this, i'm pretty sure it would of changed their views in their teachings.
     
  3. truth_seeker

    truth_seeker New Member

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    i definitly believe it's foreign languages, and not some gibberish-words some people make it out to be.
     
  4. Alanforchrist

    Alanforchrist Member

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    Ok, maybe this has already been talked to death in the past, but I'm curious what everyone's different thoughts on modern speaking in tongues are. Biblical basis please? I'm curious, and always willing to learn if I am wrong about something. And I know this is often a subject that is near and dear to people's hearts, so please...be nice, try to keep an open mind, try not to get too defensive, and keep it friendly!
    Jesus said that the believer will speak with new tongues. Mark 16: 17.Peter said the Holy Ghost is for every believer. Acts 2: 38-39.And Acts 2: 4. says, "They were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and spoke in tongues".Nowhere in the Bible does it say that tongues are not for today.
     
  5. truth_seeker

    truth_seeker New Member

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    i just found an excellent article that clearly outlines what tongues is based on scripture.QUESTION 1: What does the Bible mean when it says one of the spiritual gifts is tongues?Isaiah 8:19-20: 19 And when they say to you, "Seek those who are mediums and wizards, who whisper and mutter," should not a people seek their God? Should they seek the dead on behalf of the living? 20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. (NKJ)whisper in Hebrew = tsaphaph: coo, chatter, whisper, peepmutter in Hebrew = hagah: murmur, mourn, mutter, speak, utter Isaiah 66:18 "For I know their works and their thoughts. It shall be that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come and see My glory. (NKJ)Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. (NKJ)tongues in Greek and Hebrew = languageutterance in Greek = to enunciate plainly, declare, say, speak forth, utteranceANSWER:point 1: Tongues must be understood to be plainly enunciated language. Tongues is not spoken noises, sounds, or muttered syllables, which is demonic delusion. See Isaiah 8:19-20.Point 2: The church began with God filling the disciples with the Holy Spirit, which had immediate physical evidence. Visible fire was seen over the heads of the crowd of believers, a sound of a wind storm was literally heard, and the disciples spoke out loud plainly and understandable about the great things of God in various known human languages.Acts 2:6-12: 6 And when this sound occurred, the multitude came together, and were confused, because everyone heard them speak in his own language. 7 Then they were all amazed and marveled, saying to one another, "Look, are not all these who speak Galileans? 8 "And how is it that we hear, each in our own language in which we were born? 9 "Parthians and Medes and Elamites, those dwelling in Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10 "Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya adjoining Cyrene, visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, 11 "Cretans and Arabs--we hear them speaking in our own tongues the wonderful works of God." 12 "So they were all amazed and perplexed, saying to one another, "Whatever could this mean?" (NKJ)Point 3: The Greek word construction makes it plain the disciples continued with the ability to speak these languages. Without language education the disciples were able to speak a different human language. This is truly a spiritual gift from God, not human learning. The issue also includes the fact that they did not just speak their new language that one moment to never repeat it again, but that they continued from that time forward to have the ability to speak their new language also. This point is made by the Greek verbs used and is technical to the language.Point 4: One way the Holy Spirit physically expresses or shows His powerful presence in a believer is through the gift of speaking a language previously unknown to that person according to 1 Corinthians. Another way is the ability to understand the language, not just speaking words that you yourself would not comprehend.1 Corinthians 12:7-10: 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: 8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. (NKJ)manifestation in Greek = exhibition, expression1 Corinthians 12:1-3: 1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to be ignorant: 2 You know that you were Gentiles, carried away to these dumb idols, however you were led. 3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit. (NKJ)Point 5: According to 1 Corinthians 12:10, various languages are given according to God's will. This is illustrated in Acts 2 where at least 17 groups of people are listed.divers or different in Greek = some or any object or person, a kind of [something], certain [things]kinds in Greek = born, country[man], diversity, generation, kind[red], nation, offspring, stock1 Corinthians 12:11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills. (NKJ)Conclusion: If anyone says they are speaking in God's giftedness of tongues, but cannot verify that it is a spoken human language, then it is not the Acts 2, Holy Spirit filled language gift. It is either a mental invention or satanic spirits deceiving the person.QUESTION 2: Is tongues a gift that is no longer being given by God?Some say 1 Corinthians 13:8 demands that tongues stopped when the New Testament revelation of God was written. They base their thoughts on these words:8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.ANSWER:Now, it does not say what the "that which is perfect" is. This is what causes confusion and disagreement among good Christians. Since God is love, love will never fail or stop. In heaven love will be the rule and standard of all actions and motives. While in heaven, we will not need God's special gifts. We will know as we are known, therefore "knowledge" will not be necessary. Since we will all speak the same language, tongues will not be necessary to glorify God and reach the lost. This is final complete perfection, or completion. We will come to the end of our journey and reach the end of the road. The only reason heaven is the better conclusion and not the New Testament is what Paul says in verse 12: For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face...One last note, God only appeared in a burning bush once. Spoke to a man through a donkey once. Parted the Red Sea once. Because God glorifies Himself by giving someone the ability to speak a foreign language does not mean that everyone can or is supposed to. The key is God's word, "But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills." (1 Corinthians 12:11) This is widely forgotten! "Do all speak in tongues?" (vs 30) The answer is NO! And this is why many are deceived!QUESTION 3: Do demons speak in tongues too? If so, how can we tell the difference between demon trickery and Holy Spirit giftedness?Leviticus 17:7 "They shall no more offer their sacrifices to demons, after whom they have played the harlot. This shall be a statute forever for them throughout their generations."' (NKJ)1 Corinthians 10:19-21: 19 What am I saying then? That an idol is anything, or what is offered to idols is anything? 20 Rather, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice they sacrifice to demons and not to God, and I do not want you to have fellowship with demons. 21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons; you cannot partake of the Lord's table and of the table of demons. (NKJ)Luke 4:33-35: 33 Now in the synagogue there was a man who had a spirit of an unclean demon. And he cried out with a loud voice, 34 saying, "Let us alone! What have we to do with You, Jesus of Nazareth? Did You come to destroy us? I know who You are - the Holy One of God!" 35 But Jesus rebuked him, saying, "Be quiet, and come out of him!" And when the demon had thrown him in their midst, it came out of him and did not hurt him. (NKJ)Luke 8:29-31: 29 For He had commanded the unclean spirit to come out of the man. For it had often seized him, and he was kept under guard, bound with chains and shackles; and he broke the bonds and was driven by the demon into the wilderness. 30 Jesus asked him, saying, "What is your name?" And he said, "Legion," because many demons had entered him. 31 And they begged Him that He would not command them to go out into the abyss. (NKJ)ANSWER:point 1: Demons spoke out of people in Israel in the human languages the people understood. Therefore they speak in tongues. They have possessed people for thousands of years and therefore know many languages. In the pagan priests and mediums the demons mystified everyone with muttering and unclear noises making it sound like a secret language. Then the false prophets and priests would be the only ones able to translate the gods messages for the people.Point 2: One way Christians are protected from deception is the word of God. If the translation of the message through a qualified language expert is against the Lord Jesus it obviously is not from God. "To the law and testimony" means God's Word is the standard to protect us against Satan's traps. Also, "no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed" will obviously prove the Holy Spirit is not behind the spiritual manifestation in a person whether they claim they are of God or not. Isaiah 8:19-20: 19 And when they say to you, "Seek those who are mediums and wizards, who whisper and mutter," should not a people seek their God? Should they seek the dead on behalf of the living? 20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. (NKJ)1 Corinthians 12:1-3 1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to be ignorant: 2 You know that you were Gentiles, carried away to these dumb idols, however you were led. 3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit. (NKJ)Modern Example: Bill [not real name] a resident of Michigan, was a student in a college in the late 1960's and traveled home on the weekends to attend church with his family. One Sunday afternoon he drove past a "Pentecostal" church and had never been in a service of that type before. Curious, he pulled in and slipped in the back and observed. To his surprise a woman jumped up and began to speak in "tongues" with the whole congregation enjoying God's presence and manifestation. The problem was Bill recognized the "tongues" as French. He was an advanced French student and understood the woman cursing and blaspheming Christ. It scared him and he slipped out the back door and left without a word to anyone there. All seemed convinced they were worshipping Christ, and not aware of cursing Him.QUESTION 4: What did God plan speaking in tongues for?1 Corinthians 14:21-22: 21 In the law it is written: "With men of other tongues and other lips I will speak to this people; and yet, for all that, they will not hear Me," says the Lord. 22 Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe. (NKJ)1 Peter 4:10 As each one has received a gift, minister it to one another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God. (NKJ)ANSWER:point 1: Paul spends a lot of time explaining to the church at Corinth that the most important thing to God is self-sacrificing love to one another, not using selfish religious practices to build themselves up. So he gives a long explanation of what agape love is [1 Corinthians 13], and then applies love to spiritual gifts [1 Corinthians 14]. In a local church of people with all the same language, a gift of tongues could only be used in a selfish manner. Once he got this point established, he then makes this clear statement, "Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; ...". This statement kills the theory that speaking in tongues is for personal use or spiritual edification of the church. Tongues is for one purpose: to minister to the lost unbelievers. This is exactly what God used tongues for in Acts 2. Spiritual gifts are never designed for selfish use; "minister it to one another" is obviously to serve someone else.Point 2: In a local area with mostly the same language spoken, the only way tongues could be used to serve and minister to others would be through an interpreter. Without an interpreter love is not being expressed to anyone.1 Corinthians 14:26-28: 26 How is it then, brethren? Whenever you come together, each of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification. 27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, let there be two or at the most three, each in turn, and let one interpret. 28 But if there is no interpreter, let him keep silent in church, and let him speak to himself and to God. (NKJ)Beware: this is not a license to speak in tongues in your closet instead of prayer! It is to stop worthless chatter and noise in a church gathering. Besides, did you ever notice that all the interpretations given in tongues speaking circles are secret messages from God, not words to God. But Paul says they are all words to God or men. "if I pray in a tongue... sing with the spirit ... bless with the spirit ...."1 Corinthians 14:6-11 6 But now, brethren, if I come to you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you unless I speak to you either by revelation, by knowledge, by prophesying, or by teaching? 7 Even things without life, whether flute or harp, when they make a sound, unless they make a distinction in the sounds, how will it be known what is piped or played? 8 For if the trumpet makes an uncertain sound, who will prepare himself for battle? 9 So likewise you, unless you utter by the tongue words easy to understand, how will it be known what is spoken? For you will be speaking into the air. 10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of languages in the world, and none of them is without significance. 11 Therefore, if I do not know the meaning of the language, I shall be a foreigner to him who speaks, and he who speaks will be a foreigner to me. (NKJ)1 Corinthians 14:12-19: 12 Even so you, since you are zealous for spiritual gifts, let it be for the edification of the church that you seek to excel. 13 Therefore let him who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret. 14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful. 15 What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding. 16 Otherwise, if you bless with the spirit, how will he who occupies the place of the uninformed say "Amen" at your giving of thanks, since he does not understand what you say? 17 For you indeed give thanks well, but the other is not edified. 18 I thank my God I speak with tongues more than you all; 19 yet in the church I would rather speak five words with my understanding, that I may teach others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue. (NKJ)Point 3: There is no evidence or statement given in the Bible for the commonly practiced private prayer language theory. No secret angelic unknown language either! Chapter 14:10 makes it clear Paul is thinking of regular human languages. Paul stated he spoke in tongues more than all the Christians in the Corinthian church. But, not in a church gathering, and not in private because he is the one who said it was to be used for a sign to the lost. The only way he could have spoken "with tongues more than you all" as a sign to the lost would be while he traveled the world preaching in the tongues of the lost people that lived all over the Roman empire. Again this would be a sign to the unbelievers matching the historical experience of Pentecost.Point 4: In a local church setting like the church of Corinth illustrates, when believers misuse a gift from God it only brings division in the body and confusion to unsaved guests who are also of the same language in the local city. "Therefore if the whole church comes together in one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those who are uninformed or unbelievers, will they not say that you are out of your mind?" [14:23]CONCLUSION: God does not need a spiritual gift exercised to Him. There is no need to speak in tongues to God, He knows all languages and looks at a man's heart and knows our thoughts. In 1 Peter 4:10 it says He gave spiritual gifts to minister to other people, not Him. There is no need to speak in tongues in a local church full of people of the same language, unless there is a language interpretation. Paul teaches this also. The only clearly Bible stated truth left is what Paul also says: "Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; ....". When people can speak Spanish, when never trained, it is a sign of God's power to these people. This is what happened in Acts 2; re-read it. The Bible answers itself, and Acts 2 proves it.source: http://therefinersfire.org/speaking_in_tongues.htm
     
  6. setfree

    setfree New Member

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    Reply to truth_seekers postQuestion #1 what does the Bible say is Spiritual gifts is tongues? First of all, John the Baptist and the disciples and those before the day of Pentecost were under the Old Covenant. They had never been made a new creature in Christ. (2 Cor. 5:17) Jesus had not redeemed man at this time. Spiritual things can only be given to spiritual people-people who are born of the Spirit. The gifts were given to the Church. Those that died before Christ resurrection did not receive the Holy Spirit as we do today.The scriptures given in Isa. 8:19 do not refer to the gift of the Holy Spirit. They are referring to people seeking spirits from the dead (séances). Yes, there are people out there seeking God through evil. But the Holy Spirit is not evil! So when people go to seek God with all there heart, do you think God will give them evil? No! he will give them good gifts. Point #1Tongues must be understood to be considered a language. How do you explain 1 Cor. 14:2…. For he that speaketh in an tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. Yes, God can understand all languages, even those that man can not. I do not understand all languages, but if God gives me the gift of interpretation I can understand what someone speaking in tongues is saying. An unbeliever can interpret, but this is something he has to learn. When the Spirit teaches you it, it is of God not man.Point #2The church began with speaking languages others could understand. I agree! But notice that they did not need an interpreter. Why later do they need an interpreter?Point #3The disciples continued speaking these languages.Also agree!Point #4Do not quiet know where you are going with this, are you saying that the evidence (manifestation) of the Spirit is speaking in tongues?Point #5The gifts are given by God’s will.Also agree! Your conclusion: If anyone says they are speaking in God's giftedness of tongues, but cannot verify that it is a spoken human language, then it is not the Acts 2, Holy Spirit filled language gift. It is either a mental invention or satanic spirits deceiving the person.Your own speculation, nowhere in scriptures does it say you have to know the language you are speaking. Just the opposite 1 Cor. 14:14 says that For if I pray in an tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. We do not understand what we are saying. The ones at Pentecost were magnifying God in tongues, but it does not say that they themselves understood what they were saying….only the ones hearing understood.Some where somebody in the world might can recognize the tongue you are speaking by God, but it does not say…If you do not recognize it as a language it is not a gift from God.I will address the other questions later.
     
  7. setfree

    setfree New Member

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    Truth_seekers Question #2 is tongues a gift that is no longer being given by God?I agree that the gifts of the Spirit are for today and will not end until the end of this age.But on your note 1 Cor.12: 27-31 is speaking of how things work in the church. When we come together we will have different gifts to edify, exhort and comfort. If everyone spoke in church in tongues and no one interpreted, tongues are useless. If everyone was a teacher, who would they teach?…If everyone could heal…who would they heal? He is saying that every member needs to walk in his calling, not everyone is called to speak in tongues in church, not that they can’t…God just does not call everyone to do it in every service. I have not been called to be an apostle, prophet, miracles, government in the church etc. But God has called me as a teacher at times, when I am not convicted to teach by God does that mean I lost my gift of teaching? No, God just called me to do something else at this time.
     
  8. medicalmatt

    medicalmatt New Member

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    Wow, I start this thread, leave for the weekend, and look what we have now! I wonder if someone can tell me:A) Why this is such a hot topic for people?[​IMG] Is this subject really deserving of such heated debate? I ask this of:1) Proponents of modern day, unintelligible tongue-speaking...why do you feel the need to defend this so passionately? Would you be willing to concede that this is not a major doctrinal point, and that, at worst, people who don't believe modern day, unintelligible tongue-speaking are merely missing out on a satisfying emotional experience with God?2) Opponents of moder day, unintelligible tongue-speaking...why do you feel the need to attack this so passionately? Would you be willing to concede that this is not a major doctrinal point, and that, otherwise doctrinally and Biblically sound Christians who believe in and practice modern-day, unintelligible tongue-speaking are merely having a harmless emotional experience, with their hearts and emotions (rather than the actual Holy Spirit) outpouring in indiscernable speech simply because they don't have the words to express all that is in their hearts toward God?I have my own thoughts, but I will reserve them for now [​IMG] God Bless, and remember Paul's words in Galations 5:14,15 -- "For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' But if you bite and devour one another, beware lest you be consumed by one another!"
     
  9. setfree

    setfree New Member

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    Truth_seekers QUESTION 3: Do demons speak in tongues too? If so, how can we tell the difference between demon trickery and Holy Spirit giftedness?I agree demons speak a language, but it is not the gift from the Holy Spirit. All unbelievers speak a language. Just because you heard of someone having a bad experience does not mean the real does not exist.
     
  10. setfree

    setfree New Member

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    (medicalmatt;48094)
    Wow, I start this thread, leave for the weekend, and look what we have now! I wonder if someone can tell me:A) Why this is such a hot topic for people?[​IMG] Is this subject really deserving of such heated debate? I ask this of:1) Proponents of modern day, unintelligible tongue-speaking...why do you feel the need to defend this so passionately? Would you be willing to concede that this is not a major doctrinal point, and that, at worst, people who don't believe modern day, unintelligible tongue-speaking are merely missing out on a satisfying emotional experience with God?2) Opponents of moder day, unintelligible tongue-speaking...why do you feel the need to attack this so passionately? Would you be willing to concede that this is not a major doctrinal point, and that, otherwise doctrinally and Biblically sound Christians who believe in and practice modern-day, unintelligible tongue-speaking are merely having a harmless emotional experience, with their hearts and emotions (rather than the actual Holy Spirit) outpouring in indiscernable speech simply because they don't have the words to express all that is in their hearts toward God?I have my own thoughts, but I will reserve them for now [​IMG] God Bless, and remember Paul's words in Galations 5:14,15 -- "For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' But if you bite and devour one another, beware lest you be consumed by one another!"
    Point taken!Very good points!But the Bible also tell you to defend what you believe, in a loving way.I do believe in the gifts! and I do speak in tongues! These gifts are not from satan, and people need to beware what they call evil when God calls it good.....not to say all that we see and hear today is real. But what is of God and is in his word we need to except by faith.
     
  11. medicalmatt

    medicalmatt New Member

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    Amen...defend what you believe! As long as it is in a loving manner [​IMG] I'd be offended if you didn't defend it!Since you believe in the gift of tongues, defined as a modern-day pheneomenon where the speaker is moved by the Holy Spirit to make vocal utterings that are not understandable by the speaker nor by any listener, as a means of speaking directly from the heart to God the Father, I wonder if you would respond to my question, B-1, above? Would you be willing to concede to that? Why or why not?
     
  12. setfree

    setfree New Member

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    (kriss;48074)
    And what if Im not the one blined by Satan because I tell you You are the one not following his Word not walking after Christ not following the disciples why is this only an American thing except where the belief has been taken over seas why didnt the early church ever speak about it why did men invent it Why did not Jesus come up out of the water babbling. I know what I say to God. Do you?????? As I say its not my place to tell anyone how to pray but I do take objection to your preverting scripture.
    Why would Jesus come babbling out of the water? You tell me! Now if you are asking the question Why didn't Jesus speak in tongues? I believe that Jesus could speak in all languages if needed. I believe that he prayed God's perfect will, because he is perfect and had the Spirit without measure.You ask me if I know what I am praying.........As for me I do not know what I am to pray for all the time, or who to pray for. The Spirit within me knows and I trust Him(faith) to pray that perfect will. Sometimes he gives me the interpretaion and sometimes not, but I still have faith that God's perfect will is prayed.I am not perverting the scriptues. I have, like you, express what I believe God has taught me about His word. I will be the first to admit that I have been proven wrong on a lot of my past beliefs.....that was when I was listening to man and not God. God has been faithful to bring me out of a lot of confusion.The Bible also says in John 21:25 that there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one,I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written.
     
  13. Craig19

    Craig19 New Member

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    Well said setfree. I think speaking in tongues is amassing and it has changed my life. You see the only people who are arguing against tongues are those who have not yet experienced it. Why not take a step in faith and ask God that if people can really speak in tongues He must let you speak in tongues as well and if you believe you will also be able to, And I promise you all your doudt concerning this will disappear and you will reallise the truth.Personally I feel this topic is getting out of hand no one that has ever spoken in tongues will accept it is fake so this topic's purpose is basicly so others may see the truth, but we can not force them to see the truth so for now lets let them be. They are strong in their belief and this topic has become a meaningless argument.God bless
     
  14. setfree

    setfree New Member

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    (medicalmatt;48098)
    Amen...defend what you believe! As long as it is in a loving manner [​IMG] I'd be offended if you didn't defend it!Since you believe in the gift of tongues, defined as a modern-day pheneomenon where the speaker is moved by the Holy Spirit to make vocal utterings that are not understandable by the speaker nor by any listener, as a means of speaking directly from the heart to God the Father, I wonder if you would respond to my question, B-1, above? Would you be willing to concede to that? Why or why not?
    I am not in a church that move in the gifts during service. I am at a Baptist church, to make a long story short......... God is in the process of moving us back to the truths of the Bible, every religion has strayed in some degree from God. God led us to this church, (at the time I did not understand why)but by faith I followed. Now I understand that the pastor believes the gifts are still here and that we (as most Baptist) were led astray concerning this subject. He is trying to get us back, I believe God has called me to be an intercessor during this time. Your answer to B-1..... Proponents of modern day, unintelligible tongue-speaking...why do you feel the need to defend this so passionately? Would you be willing to concede that this is not a major doctrinal point, and that, at worst, people who don't believe modern day, unintelligible tongue-speaking are merely missing out on a satisfying emotional experience with God?I defend it because like other scriptures, I believe it..I have experienced it (prayer language, visions etc.) and because I wasted so many years not believing this I would love for others to embrace it. This is not a salvation issue, but it is benificial to our walk with God.
     
  15. setfree

    setfree New Member

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    (Craig19;48102)
    Well said setfree. I think speaking in tongues is amassing and it has changed my life. You see the only people who are arguing against tongues are those who have not yet experienced it. Why not take a step in faith and ask God that if people can really speak in tongues He must let you speak in tongues as well and if you believe you will also be able to, And I promise you all your doudt concerning this will disappear and you will reallise the truth.Personally I feel this topic is getting out of hand no one that has ever spoken in tongues will accept it is fake so this topic's purpose is basicly so others may see the truth, but we can not force them to see the truth so for now lets let them be. They are strong in their belief and this topic has become a meaningless argument.God bless
    I agree! and I told myself I was not going to be drawn back in this discussion. But I can see the ones that do not believe as I was only a year ago....so much time I wasted...so many gifts God had offered me through His Spirit...I just would not believe..But only the Holy Spirit could have brought me to the place so that I would except this.
     
  16. medicalmatt

    medicalmatt New Member

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    I appreciate your candid, kind responses, setfree.I wish that people who believe in tongues would not automatically assume that I have not asked God, open-mindedly, to show me the gift of tongues, if it exists. I attend a church where "tongue-speaking" is a fairly common occurrence. Some of the verses that have been raised in defense of tongue-speaking have definitely interested me, and I plan to pursue the matter further, asking our Lord for guidance. I try to live by what I tell everyone...I am very open-minded, and never feel that I have completed my understanding of a topic. I am always willing to listen to and carefully (prayerfully) consider new information and perspectives. If I am shown to be wrong, I am joyful to change my beliefs. I'm just trying to get closer to the truth. Would you, Setfree, mind sharing what specific things were instrumental in changing your mind about tongues?
     
  17. setfree

    setfree New Member

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    It is hard at times to make a long testamony short, but I will try.I did not go in search of the gifts as a matter of fact I was on a mission to set the ones that believed in it straight. I was brought up very legalistic. Things were changing at a local church and I began to question in my legalistic way the things that they were embracing. The answers I received again began to tear down my defenses. At this point I was a spiritually, confused mess! I cried out to God one evening after everyone had gone to bed. I wanted the truth!! I wanted the Holy Spirit to teach me not religions. I told Him I was not going to bed until I heard from him. I understood the desperation of Jacob when he held on to the angel until he got his answer. But by about 3:30 or 4:00 in the morning I was exhausted. After I fell asleep I had a dream… In the dream God told me to get back in the race, we were not in a competition with each other(religions). But before I got back in he was going to equip me and teach me to use the equipment(the gifts)....I had never experienced any thing like this before and it was a little scary. It was also very comforting. I did not share this with anyone for a few days and then I shared it with my husband. I started searching for the answers this time in scripture and prayer. A lot of prayer! God brought people in my life that said the right thing and gave me books to read. They were coming from everywhere. God can do that you know! When the Holy Spirit began to show me things in the Bible and teach me it was overwhelming at first. After studying the gift of the Spirit one night I embraced this truth just like when I was saved. I did not understand everything but what I read and the Holy Spirit revealed to me was enough. I first confessed every sin that was brought to my mind. I ask God to cleanse my heart and to fill me with his Spirit. I did not feel any different other than a peace just like salvation. A hunger for his word, joy that can not be explained was the beginning. I talked to a pastor friend that we had been visiting his church(now a member of). He came from the same religion I had and was free from that religious spirit. He has helped me along my journey in so many ways.I wanted to know what spiritual gift I had received. It was four months later... At first it felt strange but later I started experiencing things from the Lord that even now I can not explain. But by the middle of April I guess Satan decided I wasn’t going to give up and the attacks began. My first thoughts were that God was trying to get my attention and I was heading down the wrong way. How wrong I was! It was just another lie from Satan. Satan was attacking because I was getting closer to the truth!I believe we get a measure of the Holy Spirit at Birth (spiritual). When we accept what Christ did on the cross and realize in our hearts our need for a savior. We ask him to cleanse us and invite Him in, He comes with gifts. For so long I would not receive because of what I was taught and my ignorance. I thought I had to understand first. Just like salvation, we do not know all there is to know about our salvation. By faith we receive Jesus as our savior and by faith we believe in the filling and the gift he has to offer us. I thank Him for his many gifts. Salvation through His Son, The Holy Spirit, His Word and so much more to discover, truly He is a treasure.
     
  18. medicalmatt

    medicalmatt New Member

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    I, too, was brought up very legalistic. I have within the last year or so, really begun to question and search for answers, and to have a a faith that is deep, genuine and passionate. I will always be deeply logical, and I always question the validity of my emotion (for the heart is desperately wicked, who can know it?) and always confirm what I hear and feel by the Word. Still, I am questioning many firmly helf beliefs and interpretations that I have always stood by. When I first began this, I felt as you did..a spiritually confused mess! I have had many evening of crying out to God for answers. I, with trepidation, share with you a poem I wrote a few months ago. It's incredibly personal, but I feel led to share it.
    Once I knew EverythingSo sure of myself.I’d read the whole BibleBy the time I was twelve.Passionless, cold,I knew my theology.The 5 points of “TULIP”And no Halloween.Then I knew NothingMy world ripped apart.The veil cast asideA deep pain in my heart.I knew that nothingFrom my past could I trustThat all my preconceived notionsWere now worthless as dust.Does God choose us?Or do we choose Him?Can we choose to leave ChristWhenever we whim?Are devils among usAnd if so, what threat?Tell me now,What has Christ done with my debt?Just exactly how far is the East from the West?Now I know Something,The most basic of all.Jesus loves me, I know,No matter how much I fall.He hurts when I leave Him,And, true, it angers Him so.When I turn my back on HimSo I can go with the flow.But God’s mercy is deep,And God’s love is so strong,That He holds me when I weep,When I admit that I was wrong.Later I’ll know more Somethings,For that’s the nature of me.Always needing to know more.To solve the mystery.God’s depths are unfathomableI’ll never know the whole.But as long as I remember that first something,That’s really all there is to know.​
     
  19. medicalmatt

    medicalmatt New Member

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    (Wakka;47837)
    Prayer in tongues is a great thing. It build up your spirit and mind, and it allows you to pray continuously without ceasing (loss of words). Our minds are not fruitful, so it is up for our spirit to talk to God.
    I wonder what, if any, Biblical basis you have for this statement? Or is this just relating your personal experience?
     
  20. medicalmatt

    medicalmatt New Member

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    (Wakka;47898)
    Why can't you just understand that the Holy Spirit came to us and brought with itself a prayer language. It's a language that edifies the person. It's there because our minds are unfruitful and untrustworthy.
    Again, I don't see any Biblical basis for the Holy Spirit bringing a "prayer language" with Him. Nor do I see anywhere that the purpose of such a "prayer language" would be because our minds are unfruitful and untrustworthy. I DO see that the Holy Spirit makes intercession before the Father on our behalf, with "groanings too deep for words." But that is the Holy Spirit speaking, not us. Thoughts?
     
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