Tradition Versus Scripture

[Matthias]

We know that Numbers is the word of God and this is a beautiful verse of scripture that our church also recited.

I appreciated that her youth group recited it at the close of their meetings. Not all youth groups do, I suggest.

I appreciate that your church also recited it. When during the service, and with what frequency? The timing and frequency questions help me to understand whether or not the recitation is a tradition or not.

I’m personally not aware of any churches that routinely incorporate recitation of the Numbers passage in their weekly worship services. I suppose there are churches that do; I‘m certain that their are churches that don’t.

For those that theoretically do, I would consider that to be their unique tradition.

In any case, neither you nor I appear to have any objection to such a liturgical practice or absence of it.

Tradition are the words of men added to scripture.

That’s a narrow definition of “tradition.” If that’s the only use of the word that you’re addressing then you should find near universal acceptance of your concern about it.

 

[Matthias]

So, would He condemn the religious 'tradition' of today that claims their 'oral tradition' is Equal
'in authority' to:

God's Pure And Preserved Word, Which He 'Placed' Higher Than All Of His Holy Name?

Just checking...

If the claim about their oral tradition is in conflict with “God’s Pure And Preserved Word“ then I’m confident that he would condemn it.

 

[Bibleinvestigations]

Thanks.

You’ve equated tradition with lessons (teachings, instructions) in your reply. Would it be fair to say then that there is a difference between good traditions and bad traditions?

What I’m getting at is that there is nothing inherently wrong with, or evil about, traditions per se.

Some traditions are good. Some traditions are bad. Some traditions are neutral.

Some traditions are religious in nature. Some traditions are secular in nature.

Some traditions are evil. Some traditions are godly. Some traditions are insignificant.

In short, I don’t think Jesus, the apostles or the early church condemned all traditions, nor even the concept of tradition. It’s the nature of a tradition, it seems to me, which must be evaluated and either accepted or rejected.

The problem is once you accept tradition and try to decide what is acceptable, evil, or good, people are determining what the church is to be. For example, say I don’t agree with your tradition and you don’t agree with mine so what do we do? We fracture the church with some who follow me and some who follow you. Isn’t this a major problem in the church? Jesus and the disciples started one church not numerous branches of CATS. Can anyone provide an example of tradition that is necessary for the church mission to inform the world about Jesus?

 

[Matthias]

The problem is once you accept tradition and try to decide what is acceptable, evil, or good, people are determining what the church is to be. For example, say I don’t agree with your tradition and you don’t agree with mine so what do we do?

What I hope we would do is respectfully disagree. As long as your tradition (or mine) isn’t in conflict with scripture then let us tolerate one another.

We fracture the church with some who follow me and some who follow you.

That happens in many churches. Creative solutions are needed. A practical example that comes to mind is style of worship music. Some people insist that only a certain style (typically called a “traditional style”) should be used; some that other styles should be allowed. Some churches attempt to accommodate both sides, mixing or alternating the style of music. Some have gone so far as to have multiple services, with one service catering to those who want (or insist) on traditional music and the other service catering to those who either want or are willing to tolerate non-traditional music.

Isn’t this a major problem in the church?

It has, I suspect, been a problem which has existed in the church since its foundation in the 1st century. Paul found it a necessary issue to discuss.

Jesus and the disciples started one church not numerous branches of CATS.

What was the “commonly accepted theology” of Jesus and the disciples in the 1st century?

Has the church gone beyond it?

Caution. I think we’re on the cusp of discussing that which must not be discussed in this house.

Can anyone provide an example of tradition that is necessary for the church mission to inform the world about Jesus?

 

[GRACE ambassador]

We fracture the church with some who follow me and some who follow you. Isn’t this a major problem in the church?

The Worst 'tradition' I have 'seen' in my studies, is C) below:

I have decided to Follow Jesus?

A) Do I follow Him, and the doctrine He Spoke as The:

Humble Christ, on the earth, To Israel, 12 apostles, Under The Law/covenants
/Prophecy:

1) Repent (change mind about sin/agree With God "it is Wrong!") or perish
(Luk 13:3,5, 24:47 Mar 1:4)
+
2) believe the gospel of the kingdom (Mat 4:23, 9:35, 24:14; Mar 1:14,15)
+
3) be baptized "For the remission of sin" (Mar 1:4 Luk 3:3, 7:29:30, 24:47;
Act 2:38)
+
4) "show works meet for repentance" (Mat 3:8), because,
+
5) "to the twelve tribes of Israel," "faith Without works is dead"
(Jam 1:1, 2:17,26)
+
6) "keep the commandments" to "enter life" (Mat 19:17)
+
7) "one thing thou lackest...sell ALL/take up cross/follow Jesus"
(Mar 10:17-23)
+
8) pray as a watchman, for Great Tribulation, man of sin, son of perdition, and
signs of the end times, and Second Coming?

Do I follow His earthly prophecy program of covenants and law?
( OT, Mat - John, Heb - Rev ) or:

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ” (online)

B) Do I follow Him As The Risen And Glorified "Head Of His Church" and:

His Heavenly Grace Program, According To The Revelation Of The Mystery?
(His Doctrine in Romans - Philemon)

1) Have repentance toward God (change mind about sin/agree With God "it is Wrong!")
(Acts 20:21)
+
2) Have faith toward The LORD Jesus Christ (Acts 20:21), and trust/believe The Gospel
Of The Grace Of God: His Death, Burial, And Resurrection, According To The Scripture
(Ephesians 2:5-9; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4)
+
3) Acknowledge I am Spiritually Baptized By The ONE Baptism Of The Holy Spirit
Into The ONE (Spiritual Organism) Body Of Christ, Seated In the Heavenlies
(Ephesians 4:5; Colossians 2:12; Galatians 3:27; Romans 6:3-4; 1 Corinthians 12:13)
+
4) Acknowledge Christ Is Living in me, so I allow Him to, through me:
+
5) To Fulfil:

All Of His Law, In ONE Word: ►► love ◄◄ thy neighbor
as thyself!" (Galatians 5:14; Romans 13:8-10)
+
6) Study God's Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided to show myself "Approved Unto God"
(2 Timothy 2:15), and all the rest of these Bible study Rules
+
7) Work with my hands to "give to them in need," and the LORD "shall supply all my need"
(Ephesians 4:28; 1 Thessalonians 4:11-12; 2 Thessalonians 3:10-12; 1 Timothy 5:8)
+
8) Be a humble prayer warrior and:
"...look, watch, and Patiently WAIT For..." = The LORD Jesus Christ!
(2 Thessalonians 2:1; Romans 8:18-19; Romans 8:23; Romans 8:25; 1 Corinthians 1:7;
Ephesians 6:12-18; Philippians 3:20; Colossians 4:1-3; 1 Thessalonians 1:10;
1 Thessalonians 5:5-11; Titus 2:13)
+
9) Put on the FULL armour of God and stand, in the spiritual warfare I wrestle with
(Ephesians 6:10-18)
+
10)
Eph 6:19 "And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I
may open my mouth boldly, to make known the Mystery Of The Gospel,"
+
11)
Eph 3:9 "And to make all men see what is the fellowship of The Mystery, which from the
beginning of the world hath been hid in God, Who created all things by Jesus Christ"
+
12) Acknowledge that I am going to give an account at Judgment (1 Corinthians 3:8-15;
Romans 14:12), at my Heavenly Home-Going ( Great GRACE Departure! )

According to these and all the details of God's Sound Doctrinal Blueprint In
Romans Through Philemon? (1 Timothy 1:10; 2 Timothy 4:3; Titus 1:9):

Titus 2:1 But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:

Or, this 'tradition'?:

C) Do I speak after following the Many, who homogenize A) + B) into
Massive Confusion?

Amen.

 

[Augustin56]

Mark 7:9 - He said to them, “Full well do you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition.

I think it’s clear that whatever Jesus says is the word of God and any tradition that contradicts the word of God is not allowed. I just had a debate with my very Catholic sister about the acceptance of tradition in the church. John 5:24 negates the need for working for salvation and tradition is work. The Eucharist requires the priest to work to change the wafer and wine. Confession requires work from both the priest and from those confessing. As soon as you accept tradition in the church you are on a slippery slope so I don’t think it’s necessary and I would say that tradition and the church are like oil and water. Follow scripture!!! Salvation is a beautiful gift, so why add work?

There are two types of "tradition" within the Bible and theology. One tradition is mere common practices, like the Jews had. The other tradition is equivalent to teaching. A closer look at 2 Thes. 2:15 shows us that Paul is talking about the latter meaning of tradition.

Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours.

Jesus didn't write a book to spread His truths. He didn't write the New Testament and hand it to the Apostles saying, "Go to the nearest Kinko's and make as many copies of this as you can, then give them out to everyone. Whatever they personally interpret it to mean, I'll back up." That never happened.

Jesus taught orally. He taught the fullness of Divine Revelation to the Apostles, who did likewise to their successors, the bishops, who did likewise, down through 2000 years of Christianity.

SOME of what was orally taught was written down. In the late 4th century, some of what was written down was declared worthy of being Scripture. We call that the New Testament.

I would be very careful to declare that someone else misinterprets the Bible because it doesn't agree with your personal interpretation. St. Peter warned against personal interpretation of Scripture in 2 Peter 1:20-21:

Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation,
for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God.

I would look to the Church Christ founded, that St. Paul refers to as the "pillar and foundation of truth" in 1 Tim 3:15, than my own personal interpretation.

Jesus told the first members of the hierarchy of His Church, the Apostles, in Luke 10:16, "Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me.”

 

[Matthias]

What happened when the present evil age extended longer than the earliest Christians thought that it would? What was their response to finding themselves facing unexpected and / or unanticipated circumstances? Reflection, adjustment and adaptation. Church history tells their story.

See the post-biblical formation of doctrine and practice.

 

[Bibleinvestigations]

I appreciated that her youth group recited it at the close of their meetings. Not all youth groups do, I suggest.

I appreciate that your church also recited it. When during the service, and with what frequency? The timing and frequency questions help me to understand whether or not the recitation is a tradition or not.

I’m personally not aware of any churches that routinely incorporate recitation of the Numbers passage in their weekly worship services. I suppose there are churches that do; I‘m certain that their are churches that don’t.

For those that theoretically do, I would consider that to be their unique tradition.

In any case, neither you nor I appear to have any objection to such a liturgical practice or absence of it.



That’s a narrow definition of “tradition.” If that’s the only use of the word that you’re addressing then you should find near universal acceptance of your concern about it.

Our church recited it at the end of every service.

 

[Bibleinvestigations]

If the claim about their oral tradition is in conflict with “God’s Pure And Preserved Word“ then I’m confident that he would condemn it.

…and warned us about in prophecy.

 

[Bibleinvestigations]

What I hope we would do is respectfully disagree. As long as your tradition (or mine) isn’t in conflict with scripture then let us tolerate one another.



That happens in many churches. Creative solutions are needed. A practical example that comes to mind is style of worship music. Some people insist that only a certain style (typically called a “traditional style”) should be used; some that other styles should be allowed. Some churches attempt to accommodate both sides, mixing or alternating the style of music. Some have gone so far as to have multiple services, with one service catering to those who want (or insist) on traditional music and the other service catering to those who either want or are willing to tolerate non-traditional music.


It has, I suspect, been a problem which has existed in the church since its foundation in the 1st century. Paul found it a necessary issue to discuss.



What was the “commonly accepted theology” of Jesus and the disciples in the 1st century?

Has the church gone beyond it?

Caution. I think we’re on the cusp of discussing that which must not be discussed in this house.

I don’t see style of music as CATS. People praise Jesus with all kinds of music and I’m a big fan of this. I consider CATS stories that have been widely accepted in the church that are not evidence based. Style of music is a preference and not a widely accepted belief that I have encountered in study bibles to explain scripture.

 

[Bibleinvestigations]

Did Jesus himself observe any traditions?

[QUOTE="Matthias, post: 1612729, m.../13/did-jesus-participate-in-rituals/[/QUOTE]

[/URL]

You forget though that the New Covenant didn’t start unti the sacrifice of Jesus was made upon his death.

 

[Bibleinvestigations]

The Worst 'tradition' have 'seen' in my studies, is C) below:

I have decided to Follow Jesus?

A) Do I follow Him, and the doctrine He Spoke as The:

Humble Christ, on the earth, To Israel, 12 apostles, Under The Law/covenants
/Prophecy:

1) Repent (change mind about sin/agree With God "it is Wrong!") or perish
(Luk 13:3,5 Mar 1:4 24:47)
+
2) believe the gospel of the kingdom (Mat 4:23, 9:35, 24:14; Mar 1:14,15)
+
3) be baptized "For the remission of sin" (Mar 1:4 Luk 3:3, 7:29:30, 24:47;
Act 2:38)
+
4) "show works meet for repentance" (Mat 3:8), because,
+
5) "to the twelve tribes of Israel," "faith Without works is dead"
(Jam 1:1, 2:17,26)
+
6) "keep the commandments" to "enter life" (Mat 19:17)
+
7) "one thing thou lackest...sell ALL/take up cross/follow Jesus"
(Mar 10:17-23)
+
8) pray as a watchman, for Great Tribulation, man of sin, son of perdition, and
signs of the end times, and Second Coming?

Do I follow His earthly prophecy program of covenants and law?
( OT, Mat - John, Heb - Rev ) or:

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ” (online)

B) Do I follow Him As The Risen And Glorified "Head Of His Church" and:

His Heavenly Grace Program, According To The Revelation Of The Mystery?
(His Doctrine in Romans - Philemon)

1) Have repentance toward God (change mind about sin/agree With God "it is Wrong!")
(Acts 20:21)
+
2) Have faith toward The LORD Jesus Christ (Acts 20:21), and trust/believe The Gospel
Of The Grace Of God: His Death, Burial, And Resurrection, According To The Scripture
(Ephesians 2:5-9; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4)
+
3) Acknowledge I am Spiritually Baptized By The ONE Baptism Of The Holy Spirit
Into The ONE (Spiritual Organism) Body Of Christ, Seated In the Heavenlies
(Ephesians 4:5; Colossians 2:12; Galatians 3:27; Romans 6:3-4; 1 Corinthians 12:13)
+
4) Acknowledge Christ Is Living in me, so I allow Him to, through me:
+
5) To Fulfil:

All Of His Law, In ONE Word: ►► love ◄◄ thy neighbor
as thyself!" (Galatians 5:14; Romans 13:8-10)
+
6) Study God's Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided to show myself "Approved Unto God"
(2 Timothy 2:15), and all the rest of these Bible study Rules
+
7) Work with my hands to "give to them in need," and the LORD "shall supply all my need"
(Ephesians 4:28; 1 Thessalonians 4:11-12; 2 Thessalonians 3:10-12; 1 Timothy 5:8)
+
8) Be a humble prayer warrior and:
"...look, watch, and Patiently WAIT For..." = The LORD Jesus Christ!
(2 Thessalonians 2:1; Romans 8:18-19; Romans 8:23; Romans 8:25; 1 Corinthians 1:7;
Ephesians 6:12-18; Philippians 3:20; Colossians 4:1-3; 1 Thessalonians 1:10;
1 Thessalonians 5:5-11; Titus 2:13)
+
9) Put on the FULL armour of God and stand, in the spiritual warfare I wrestle with
(Ephesians 6:10-18)
+
10)
Eph 6:19 "And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I
may open my mouth boldly, to make known the Mystery Of The Gospel,"
+
11)
Eph 3:9 "And to make all men see what is the fellowship of The Mystery, which from the
beginning of the world hath been hid in God, Who created all things by Jesus Christ"
+
12) Acknowledge that I am going to give an account at Judgment (1 Corinthians 3:8-15;
Romans 14:12), at my Heavenly Home-Going ( Great GRACE Departure! )

According to these and all the details of God's Sound Doctrinal Blueprint In
Romans Through Philemon? (1 Timothy 1:10; 2 Timothy 4:3; Titus 1:9):

Titus 2:1 But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:

Or, this 'tradition'?:

C) Do I speak after following the Many, who homogenize A) + B) into
Massive Confusion?

Amen.

That’s a lot to take in. I suggest we take a bite at a time if you are serious about my thoughts on these. Off the top of my head, I notice that Matthew 3:8 when put into context seems to address teachers

There are two types of "tradition" within the Bible and theology. One tradition is mere common practices, like the Jews had. The other tradition is equivalent to teaching. A closer look at 2 Thes. 2:15 shows us that Paul is talking about the latter meaning of tradition.

Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours.

Jesus didn't write a book to spread His truths. He didn't write the New Testament and hand it to the Apostles saying, "Go to the nearest Kinko's and make as many copies of this as you can, then give them out to everyone. Whatever they personally interpret it to mean, I'll back up." That never happened.

Jesus taught orally. He taught the fullness of Divine Revelation to the Apostles, who did likewise to their successors, the bishops, who did likewise, down through 2000 years of Christianity.

SOME of what was orally taught was written down. In the late 4th century, some of what was written down was declared worthy of being Scripture. We call that the New Testament.

I would be very careful to declare that someone else misinterprets the Bible because it doesn't agree with your personal interpretation. St. Peter warned against personal interpretation of Scripture in 2 Peter 1:20-21:

Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation,
for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God.

I would look to the Church Christ founded, that St. Paul refers to as the "pillar and foundation of truth" in 1 Tim 3:15, than my own personal interpretation.

Jesus told the first members of the hierarchy of His Church, the Apostles, in Luke 10:16, "Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me.”

I don’t understand why you are convinced that Jesus - God - didn't pick disciples who wrote and documented his word. What is your evidence for these claims?

 

[Matthias]

Our church recited it at the end of every service.

I like that. From my perspective, that’s a tradition. There may be other churches that do it too, but I don’t know of any that do.

Your church tradition -> recite the passage at the end of every service. (What a beautiful tradition!)

Other churches’ tradition -> something besides reciting the passage. (Which I don’t see as being an issue.)

I attended a church for a while which had the tradition of turning and shaking the hands of the people in the immediate vicinity. Nothing wrong with that; just a tradition that that particular church has had for over a hundred years.

 

[Matthias]

I don’t see style of music as CATS. People praise Jesus with all kinds of music and I’m a big fan of this. I consider CATS stories that have been widely accepted in the church that are not evidence based. Style of music is a preference and not a widely accepted belief that I have encountered in study bibles to explain scripture.

I’ve seen churches split over it and denominations which insist on no instrumentAl accompaniment. I think the later would fit the narrow meaning of tradition.

 

[Bibleinvestigations]

There are two types of "tradition" within the Bible and theology. One tradition is mere common practices, like the Jews had. The other tradition is equivalent to teaching. A closer look at 2 Thes. 2:15 shows us that Paul is talking about the latter meaning of tradition.

Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours.

Jesus didn't write a book to spread His truths. He didn't write the New Testament and hand it to the Apostles saying, "Go to the nearest Kinko's and make as many copies of this as you can, then give them out to everyone. Whatever they personally interpret it to mean, I'll back up." That never happened.

Jesus taught orally. He taught the fullness of Divine Revelation to the Apostles, who did likewise to their successors, the bishops, who did likewise, down through 2000 years of Christianity.

SOME of what was orally taught was written down. In the late 4th century, some of what was written down was declared worthy of being Scripture. We call that the New Testament.

I would be very careful to declare that someone else misinterprets the Bible because it doesn't agree with your personal interpretation. St. Peter warned against personal interpretation of Scripture in 2 Peter 1:20-21:

Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation,
for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God.

I would look to the Church Christ founded, that St. Paul refers to as the "pillar and foundation of truth" in 1 Tim 3:15, than my own personal interpretation.

Jesus told the first members of the hierarchy of His Church, the Apostles, in Luke 10:16, "Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me.”

Where is the evidence for all this? Jesus who is God wanted his story documented. if I’m understanding you correctly, you’re saying that God sent his son at just the right time and Jesus picked his eyewitnesses who couldn’t write, so hundreds of years later people became smart enough to document the Gospels. If this is what you are claiming, it sounds ridiculous to meand I’d love to see the evidence.

 

[Matthias]

You forget though that the New Covenant didn’t start unti the sacrifice of Jesus was made upon his death.

A point that we would be in disagreement on. I think the new covenant is Jesus’ teaching (which was in effect while he was teaching it) and then ratified by his shed blood.

 

[Augustin56]

That’s a lot to take in. I suggest we take a bite at a time if you are serious about my thoughts on these. Off the top of my head, I notice that Matthew 3:8 when put into context seems to address teachers

I don’t understand why you are convinced that Jesus - God - didn't pick disciples who wrote and documented his word. What is your evidence for these claims?

Well, that's a good question, and the answer has to do with common sense, I think. It has only been in the last 100 years or so that universal literacy was achievable in the world. Before that, the vast, vast majority of humanity was illiterate. If Jesus was going to make His Church and salvation dependent upon being literate, wouldn't He have at least said so once? Yet, we see nothing of the sort in the Gospels or Oral Tradition, or the teachings of the Early Church Fathers. What Jesus did do, however, was command the Apostles (and by extension, their successors), to go forth and preach the Good News (Gospel).

This obsession with having to reinvent the theological wheel oneself through reading the Bible has lead to a mess. There are literally thousands of different/contradictory denominations, all based on personal interpretation of the Bible, with all who personally interpret the Bible claiming the be led by the Holy Spirit! The Holy Spirit, though, is not the spirit of contradiction or confusion! The Baptists, for exampe, claim that Scripture says that infant baptism is invalid. Lutherans (and, I think some others like Episcopalians), claim that it is valid. All read the Bible and claim to be led by the same Holy Spirit. Not possible.

 

[Bibleinvestigations]

What happened when the present evil age extended longer than the earliest Christians thought that it would? What was their response to finding themselves facing unexpected and / or unanticipated circumstances? Reflection, adjustment and adaptation. Church history tells their story.

See the post-biblical formation of doctrine and practice.

That’s not evidence. My investigation into the Gospel authors proved all four to be written by Jesus’ eyewitnesses - just as we would expect from God.

 

[Nancy]

Thankfully, management here is very tolerant and permits people to freely discuss their beliefs. I think the only thing that's banned is claiming that the Trinity is false, is that right @Nancy?

I only recently heard of a message board called "The Rapture Forum" (or something like that) and when I read the rules it was apparent that the only people that can post are those that parrot the views of the owner. His list of rules was very comical to me, actually, and I had a nice laugh and then went on my way.

Actually it is any posts even broaching the subject for or against, as well as the divinity of Christ, for or against and the reason is because it had caused such friction on here, for a long time the Admins. wisely banned it for a time. BTW-you should read the sites "Statement Of Faith", it tells you what this site believes.

 

[Matthias]

That’s not evidence.

We know from reading the early Church Fathers that doctrine and practice changed over time.

My investigation into the Gospel authors proved all four to be written by Jesus’ eyewitnesses - just as we would expect from God.

Luke wasn’t an eyewitness, was he? He inquired about the events he wrote about in his Gospel (Luke 1:1-4).