Tribulation Saints? A Contradiction

[No Pre-TB]

It is worse than that. You have the wrong timing for the Second Coming itself. You claim Christians go through the same wrath Jesus suffered on the Cross. Oh Well.

At least you seem prepared to suffer God's wrath.

You do realize that by saying @Davy is wrong, you’re also saying all the early church father’s were also wrong! Eusebius, Irenaeus, Justin Martyr, Polycarp and others all believed the church would see the AC and the resurrection would not happen till after that time.

 

[Timtofly]

You do realize that by saying @Davy is wrong, you’re also saying all the early church father’s were also wrong! Eusebius, Irenaeus, Justin Martyr, Polycarp and others all believed the church would see the AC and the resurrection would not happen till after that time.

If you can provide quotes from their works, I could point out their error. No, all human theology is human theology. That is the point. The church would not know the exact day and hour of the Second Coming. Any one claiming they know, have provided their own human understanding.

 

[No Pre-TB]

If you can provide quotes from their works, I could point out their error. No, all human theology is human theology. That is the point. The church would not know the exact day and hour of the Second Coming. Any one claiming they know, have provided their own human understanding.

There is no point posting their sayings if you already consider them to be in error. That’s a shame since we could all learn from those that spoke directly with the apostle the Lord loved or had second hand knowledge from someone who spoke to him.

We don’t know the hour or day, but we do know the signs of that season when it’s near that day.

 

[Davy]

It is worse than that. You have the wrong timing for the Second Coming itself. You claim Christians go through the same wrath Jesus suffered on the Cross. Oh Well.

At least you seem prepared to suffer God's wrath.

Well, there it is like I said, because it's the false Pre-trib Rapture theory that pushes the idea they are raptured prior to the "great tribulation", because that is the time of God's wrath they believe which Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 5:9. They love to pull that one verse by Paul out of the 1 Thessalonians 5:9 and mis-teach it per their false doctrines.

1 Thessalonians 5:1-9 reveals that "wrath" Paul taught being on the FINAL DAY of this world when Jesus returns "as a thief" on the 7th Vial (Revelation 16:15-17).

 

[Timtofly]

There is no point posting their sayings if you already consider them to be in error. That’s a shame since we could all learn from those that spoke directly with the apostle the Lord loved or had second hand knowledge from someone who spoke to him.

We don’t know the hour or day, but we do know the signs of that season when it’s near that day.

How can I consider it an error if I don't know what they said. I don't read minds, and certainly not dead people's minds. Every point of contention has to be brought up else no one knows what is error or what is not error. Comparing a person's opinion with Scripture is the only way to see what is true from God's Word and what is only personal opinion. But even what I have pointed out, has been rejected, because human theology has replaced God's Word in people's minds. They cannot even see it, and sometimes still reject God's Word. Their mind is made up, to the point it will not change back to the truth of God's Word.

There is no countdown to the Second Coming. Revelation 19 is not the Second Coming. No one seems willing to change their minds on that point. That has been taught and seems will never be untaught in people's minds. Then people will say that is just your opinion. Revelation 19 as the Second Coming does not line up with all Scripture and cannot line up with all Scripture. It seems very obvious it should be, but John does not give all the pertinent points. So then people make tossed salad of Revelation and change it all around to make their opinions work. That is not how interpretation should work and obviously every person has a totally different tossed salad than the next person reading Revelation. John wrote it in the exact order he witnessed it. That order does not contradict any Scripture period. People's personal tossed salad contradicts at least one or more other Scriptures. But they justify those contradictions because they make for good arguments against other posters views.

 

[Timtofly]

Well, there it is like I said, because it's the false Pre-trib Rapture theory that pushes the idea they are raptured prior to the "great tribulation", because that is the time of God's wrath they believe which Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 5:9. They love to pull that one verse by Paul out of the 1 Thessalonians 5:9 and mis-teach it per their false doctrines.

1 Thessalonians 5:1-9 reveals that "wrath" Paul taught being on the FINAL DAY of this world when Jesus returns "as a thief" on the 7th Vial (Revelation 16:15-17).

Not really, but you can keep fighting those invisible windmills.

 

[Davy]

How can I consider it an error if I don't know what they said. I don't read minds, and certainly not dead people's minds. ....

You don't read your Bible that much either, otherwise you wouldn't make all the errors you do regarding Christian Doctrine per God's Word. So your reading the 1st century Church fathers would probably be too far of a stretch for you to do too, so why are you arguing?

 

[Davy]

Not really, but you can keep fighting those invisible windmills.

Funny!

One can't grasp at a more fake windmill than the false Pre-trib Rapture theory from men, which you religiously believe on instead of God's written Word. Thus it is YOU... that chases windmills. I stay in The Word of God, which obviously scares you.

 

[No Pre-TB]

How can I consider it an error if I don't know what they said

Because Timtofly, you said,
If you can provide quotes from their works, I could point out their error

You said it. Therefore, there is no reason for me to post. You made up your mind as foolish as that is. And God says it is foolish instead of heeding wise council. You did not give their words a chance to even ponder them or to search them out. You automatically assumed they are wrong because they are human. That logic implies to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Elijah and so on. Are you sure all these "humans" were correct too?
Stop the trolling.

 

[Dave Watchman]

If ANY of the "saints" are shown going through the great tribulation, then that means we ALL go through it.

Sounds like Jesus says something different than you Davy:

"Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth. - Revelation 3:10​

That word "from" (EK), also can mean during.

Sounds like a conditional prophecy from Jesus that not "ALL" will go through it.

But they have forgotten a major revelation from Jesus' Olivet discourse about all that... they have created ANOTHER COMING by Christ that is NOWHERE written in God's Word!

The Olivet is Matthew 24, AND 25.

Look closely at the COMING of Christ in Chapter 24:

“Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.​

We are gathered by the angels from the sky. This is the first resurrection, blessed and holy, BEFORE the 1000 years.

(Not every eye will see this! Even those who pierced Him are still asleep waitng for the 1000 years to end.)​

Now look at the coming of Chapter 25:

“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.​

All the nations, ALL the tribes are back to life again. This coming does not gather people from the heavens. This coming has Christ sitting on His glorious throne. This coming is the white throne judgment day, a day like no other. This coming does not occur until the thousand years are finished.

This is the only place in time when EVERY EYE will see Him, even the eyes from the first century that pierced Him will be alive again when the dead march across the broad plain of the earth.

Sorry Davy, there's two more Comings of Christ, one before the 1000 years, one after the 1000 years.

Peaceful Sabbath.

 

[Davy]

Sounds like Jesus says something different than you Davy:

"Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth. - Revelation 3:10​

That word "from" (EK), also can mean during.

Sounds like a conditional prophecy from Jesus that not "ALL" will go through it.

Don't think for one moment that I'm not familiar with the false Pre-trib Rapture theory teachings you have heeded. What Lord Jesus said in Revelation 3 to the Church of Philadelphia was about not being subject to the "hour of temptation", not PHYSICAL ESCAPE like the false pre-trib rapture school lies about.

Firstly, ONLY the Church of Smyrna and the Church of Philadelphia Lord Jesus had no rebuke for. Those two Churches represent His very elect that cannot be deceived. The other five Churches each had problems in them.

Escaping the "hour of temptation" is about not being deceived by the coming false-Messiah, but instead being patient and waiting on Christ to come after that false one is revealed in Jerusalem sitting in a new temple, working great signs and miracles. THAT... is the "hour of temptation" when that pseudo-Christ shows up and demands all bow to him as GOD. That is the matter of "strong delusion" that Apostle Paul was warning about in 2 Thessalonians 2. And Paul even showed there that Jesus comes to destroy that false one, showing that Jesus only comes after... that false working, not prior like you've been lied to by the pre-trib rapture school.

Luke 12:35-37
35 Let your loins be girded about, and your lights burning;

36 And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.

37 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.
KJV

 

[Truth7t7]

Sounds like Jesus says something different than you Davy:

"Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth. - Revelation 3:10​

That word "from" (EK), also can mean during.

Sounds like a conditional prophecy from Jesus that not "ALL" will go through it.



The Olivet is Matthew 24, AND 25.

Look closely at the COMING of Christ in Chapter 24:

“Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.​

We are gathered by the angels from the sky. This is the first resurrection, blessed and holy, BEFORE the 1000 years.

(Not every eye will see this! Even those who pierced Him are still asleep waitng for the 1000 years to end.)​

Now look at the coming of Chapter 25:

“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.​

All the nations, ALL the tribes are back to life again. This coming does not gather people from the heavens. This coming has Christ sitting on His glorious throne. This coming is the white throne judgment day, a day like no other. This coming does not occur until the thousand years are finished.

This is the only place in time when EVERY EYE will see Him, even the eyes from the first century that pierced Him will be alive again when the dead march across the broad plain of the earth.

Sorry Davy, there's two more Comings of Christ, one before the 1000 years, one after the 1000 years.

Peaceful Sabbath.

There are (Two) resurrections on this (Last Day) the righteous are blessed to be in the (First Resurrection) to eternal life, on such the (Second Death) resurrection has no power.

1.) (First Resurrection) To Life
2.) (Second Death) Resurrection To Damnation

Revelation 20:6KJV
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The (Last Day) Resurrection Of All Below

John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

1 Corinthians 15:21-24KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

The (Last Day) Judgement

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

 

[Truth7t7]

Sounds like Jesus says something different than you Davy:

"Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth. - Revelation 3:10​

That word "from" (EK), also can mean during.

Sounds like a conditional prophecy from Jesus that not "ALL" will go through it.



The Olivet is Matthew 24, AND 25.

Look closely at the COMING of Christ in Chapter 24:

“Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.​

We are gathered by the angels from the sky. This is the first resurrection, blessed and holy, BEFORE the 1000 years.

(Not every eye will see this! Even those who pierced Him are still asleep waitng for the 1000 years to end.)​

Now look at the coming of Chapter 25:

“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.​

All the nations, ALL the tribes are back to life again. This coming does not gather people from the heavens. This coming has Christ sitting on His glorious throne. This coming is the white throne judgment day, a day like no other. This coming does not occur until the thousand years are finished.

This is the only place in time when EVERY EYE will see Him, even the eyes from the first century that pierced Him will be alive again when the dead march across the broad plain of the earth.

Sorry Davy, there's two more Comings of Christ, one before the 1000 years, one after the 1000 years.

Peaceful Sabbath.

There Will Be No 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom Upon This Earth, Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

 

[Timtofly]

You don't read your Bible that much either, otherwise you wouldn't make all the errors you do regarding Christian Doctrine per God's Word. So your reading the 1st century Church fathers would probably be too far of a stretch for you to do too, so why are you arguing?

So you side with human understanding and theology over God's Word? Or you just make up your own rules and live by them? Then you judge others by your own understanding.

 

[Timtofly]

Funny!

One can't grasp at a more fake windmill than the false Pre-trib Rapture theory from men, which you religiously believe on instead of God's written Word. Thus it is YOU... that chases windmills. I stay in The Word of God, which obviously scares you.

Revelation 6:9-14 is the rapture and Second Coming. That is God's Word. That must scare you, because you have no Scripture to defend your objection.

All you have is 677. Sure that is Scripture, but with your own chronological twist. You agree with Amil, or they agree with you that all 3 events happen at the same time. Not sure why you all lump them all together, but you all do for some reason. You then do not even have a defined tribulation or any defined periods of time. You only claim Revelation is just a series of repetitive explanations for a singular event.

 

[Timtofly]

Because Timtofly, you said,
If you can provide quotes from their works, I could point out their error

You said it. Therefore, there is no reason for me to post. You made up your mind as foolish as that is. And God says it is foolish instead of heeding wise council. You did not give their words a chance to even ponder them or to search them out. You automatically assumed they are wrong because they are human. That logic implies to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Elijah and so on. Are you sure all these "humans" were correct too?
Stop the trolling.

I did not make up my mind. I said I would point out their error on a quote by quote basis. I did not say everything they said was in error. If you have accepted all their words, you yourself accept truth and error instead of comparing their words with Scripture. You have replaced them with God's Word. I did not say quote every single doctrine and every single text. If you want me to see what they have on the topic at hand, then you will have to quote them on that topic. I am not going to do your homework, since you brought them up, not me. I have quoted the early church fathers many times over the years. But I am not going to agree with them vaguely not even knowing what you are even referring to. No, I am not going to take the time and second guess your points. Stop being ridiculous. You would have done the same thing if I just told you to accept every thing the early church fathers wrote, without telling even what part of their writings I was talking about. If you bring up the church fathers, you are going to have to actually quote them, and not use them as blunt hammers thinking they are God's Holy Word.

 

[Davy]

So you side with human understanding and theology over God's Word? Or you just make up your own rules and live by them? Then you judge others by your own understanding.

You can't even stay on topic. And judging by the way is a word that means discernment, it does not always mean The Judgment to the "lake of fire". So even with that simple lesson in God's Word you reveal you don't even understand that difference! Thus you have no credibility when it comes to God's written Word. Anyone listening to you might as well go knock on the door of a pagan, hand them The Bible, and ask them what it says.

 

[Davy]

Revelation 6:9-14 is the rapture and Second Coming. That is God's Word. That must scare you, because you have no Scripture to defend your objection.

All you have is 677. Sure that is Scripture, but with your own chronological twist. You agree with Amil, or they agree with you that all 3 events happen at the same time. Not sure why you all lump them all together, but you all do for some reason. You then do not even have a defined tribulation or any defined periods of time. You only claim Revelation is just a series of repetitive explanations for a singular event.

Jesus comes on 777.
The 7th Seal has a short period of silence acting as a 'selah' like in the Psalms. You understand music a little don't ya? You know what a musical rest or pause is don't ya? That's what 'selah' in the Psalms means because the Psalms are songs. The selah is given as a pointer to think, ponder what is said. It is a mark of completion for the 7th Seal.

The devil comes on 666.
And it will literally be the devil himself appearing with the image of man upon this earth, working great signs and wonders and miracles in the sight of men. He is that "another beast" and "dragon" of Revelation 13. He will appear on the first part of the 6th Seal, the 6th Trumpet, and 6th Vial. He is coming to takeover the beast kingdom prepared for him and set himself up on earth as God, and demand all bow to him as God.

 

[Timtofly]

You can't even stay on topic. And judging by the way is a word that means discernment, it does not always mean The Judgment to the "lake of fire". So even with that simple lesson in God's Word you reveal you don't even understand that difference! Thus you have no credibility when it comes to God's written Word. Anyone listening to you might as well go knock on the door of a pagan, hand them The Bible, and ask them what it says.

I guess that was: you make up your own rules and judge others by those rules.

Jesus comes on 777.
The 7th Seal has a short period of silence acting as a 'selah' like in the Psalms. You understand music a little don't ya? You know what a musical rest or pause is don't ya? That's what 'selah' in the Psalms means because the Psalms are songs. The selah is given as a pointer to think, ponder what is said. It is a mark of completion for the 7th Seal.

The devil comes on 666.
And it will literally be the devil himself appearing with the image of man upon this earth, working great signs and wonders and miracles in the sight of men. He is that "another beast" and "dragon" of Revelation 13. He will appear on the first part of the 6th Seal, the 6th Trumpet, and 6th Vial. He is coming to takeover the beast kingdom prepared for him and set himself up on earth as God, and demand all bow to him as God.

More of your own rules: 777 and 666.

 

[No Pre-TB]

If you have accepted all their words, you yourself accept truth and error instead of comparing their words with Scripture

I accept what scripture holds true. Their words (the early church) are as good as any commentary if not more so because they lived when the true doctrine was being past down. I don’t automatically discount them as in error as you do. They are men that loved our Lord, lived their lives for him and some, like Polycarp, were martyrs for him. Your comment is no different then saying if you accept everything your Pastor says and you don’t search it out, your guilty of taking in truth and error Or the Bible’s publisher that gives their own commentary on things.
Good try though to deflect, but I’m kicking the ball back.