Tribulation Saints? A Contradiction

[Davy]

What in the world do people living 2000 years ago have to do with those alive and remain at this post? Who is claiming those dead since Abel are the alive and remain to be raptured at the Second Coming? They are already in Paradise. They do not need raptured. Believe it or not, they got to Paradise pre-trib. Although many were martyred coming out of great tribulation like those during the Jewish and Roman persecutions or the Spanish Inquisition. Those were times of tribulation the living church did go through and came out post trib as time marches on.
....

You're not making sense, and have left the Scriptures of The Word of God.

 

[Timtofly]

So you don't fool me one bit, for I know you cannot... change those events about the time of Christ's Wrath upon the wicked shown on that 6th Seal, 7th Trumpet, and 7th Vials!

The word wrath does not negate the Second Coming is at the 6th Seal prior to the 7th Seal. The 7th Seal is opened before the 1st Trumpet.

So if you want the 7th Trumpet and 7th vial to happen prior to the 7th Seal and all the Trumpets, Thunders, and vials, go for it.

 

[Timtofly]

You're not making sense, and have left the Scriptures of The Word of God.

What does the first century have to do with the, about to happen, Second Coming? You are the one who brought the point up.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

You cited Revelation 17.

I was saying that you cannot claim Revelation 17 for the 144k. No martyrdom, no blood from your Revelation 17 reference to the harlot.

I originally cited Rev. 17 to show how the Martyrs of Jesus and The Blood of the Saints are two different entities. One is the Jewish Saints before the cross and the other are the Martyrs of Jesus after the cross.

The 144,000 are not Christians per se, they are Jews married unto the Father who are Redeemed by Jesus blood. We are Gentiles who are in an engagement to the Groom (Jesus) and we will b e married unto him in Heaven during the 70th week, some of those are Jews like Peter and Paul. No gentile has the Fathers name in his forehead, we are the Bride of Christ, they are the Fathers Bride.

 

[ewq1938]

I originally cited Rev. 17 to show how the Martyrs of Jesus and The Blood of the Saints are two different entities. One is the Jewish Saints before the cross and the other are the Martyrs of Jesus after the cross.

The 144,000 are not Christians per se, they are Jews married unto the Father who are Redeemed by Jesus blood. We are Gentiles who are in an engagement to the Groom (Jesus) and we will b e married unto him in Heaven during the 70th week, some of those are Jews like Peter and Paul. No gentile has the Fathers name in his forehead, we are the Bride of Christ, they are the Fathers Bride.

All of that is wrong. The Father has no wife or bride. Only Christ has a bride and she will be of Israel (OT and NT saints) and Gentile Christians.

 

[Davy]

The word wrath does not negate the Second Coming is at the 6th Seal prior to the 7th Seal. The 7th Seal is opened before the 1st Trumpet.

So if you want the 7th Trumpet and 7th vial to happen prior to the 7th Seal and all the Trumpets, Thunders, and vials, go for it.

There again, you concentrate more on numbers and order of how the events were written down, instead of actually understanding the 'event'... so as to know in what order it will happen.

I used to make that same mistake before I realized that Christ's Olivet discourse is giving the events of the Seals of Revelation 6 in the same order, with the final Sign being that of Jesus' coming and gathering of His Church on the last day of this world.

God's cup of wrath being poured out is shown on the 6th Seal, 7th Trumpet, and 7th Vial. There is a period of silence of half an hour mentioned with the 7th Seal was opened, which serves as a Selah (rest, per the Psalms, which means to think about what was previously shown). The Revelation 7 Chapter is kind of parenthetical, a pause in order to show how God will 'seal' His servants prior to the tribulation with His Seal by The Holy Spirit. So what the 7th Seal actually means is COMPLETENESS.

We are shown the same type of idea about the 7th Trumpet also...

Rev 10:7
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as He hath declared to His servants the prophets.
KJV

Same thing with the 7th Vial...

Rev 16:16-17
16 And He gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, "It is done."
KJV


If you'd rather be deceived, then go ahead, but you won't change what Jesus showed by those Scriptures.

 

[Davy]

What does the first century have to do with the, about to happen, Second Coming? You are the one who brought the point up.

I don't know what you're referring to.

 

[Davy]

What in the world do people living 2000 years ago have to do with those alive and remain at this post? Who is claiming those dead since Abel are the alive and remain to be raptured at the Second Coming? They are already in Paradise. They do not need raptured. Believe it or not, they got to Paradise pre-trib. Although many were martyred coming out of great tribulation like those during the Jewish and Roman persecutions or the Spanish Inquisition. Those were times of tribulation the living church did go through and came out post trib as time marches on.

Maybe that's the silly idea you were referring to regarding the 1st century. That was when Lord Jesus gave His Olivet discourse to His Church while upon the Mount of Olives with His disciples. In that He was giving the Signs of the end of this world, His future coming and gathering of His Church. That is what that 1st century teaching has to do with us about 2,000 years later!!! Too bad you just cast that off, showing you don't listen to Jesus Christ in His Word. If you did understand it, then you would understand what I've shown, because I stay with what He taught there while studying His Revelation. He only gave 7 main Signs in His Olivet discourse, and they are Signs in His Revelation, and the order revealed with Revelation 6.

I never said the church was not sealed. I was asking why you refuse to see the church is already sealed by the Cross, and already gone, and not part of the 144k who will be sealed after the Second Coming.

That part above I underlined is your problem with listening to men's doctrines instead to keeping God's Word. There is NO Scripture showing the Church is raptured prior to the "great tribulation". That idea strictly is from men who created that idea, who you follow religiously I might add. All... of the 144,000 represent the seed of Israel that are SEALED prior... to the tribulation and represent believing Israelites as part of Christ's Church! It's stupid to deny there are no Israelite believers on Christ Jesus.

Then the "great multitude" of Revelation 7:9 forward represents the believing Gentiles that are 'sealed' with God's Seal. The idea of their having come out of great tribulation with having washed their robes in the Blood of The Lamb means they suffered through... it, and overcame in Christ Jesus! And in order to do that, the believer MUST have God's Seal in order to prevent from being deceived by the false-Messiah that comes first. If you do not understand this, then it likely means you are NOT yet sealed with God's Seal in order to escape the "hour of temptation", which is not about being raptured, but is about not being subject to the "strong delusion" of that coming future false-Messiah.

Yes the Second Coming is at the 6th Seal as you claim. The issue is the 6th Seal happens before the 7th Seal. The 7th Seal happens before the 1st Trumpet. How can you claim the 7th Seal happens after the 1st Trumpet?

I really have no need of saying it is. It should be that obvious that the 6th Seal events are about the day of Christ's one-time return as written. Did you not know that in Zechariah 9:9-10 there are ONLY TWO comings of Christ shown, and not three?

And no, the issue is NOT that the 6th Seal happens prior to the 7th Seal. The 7th Seal is showing completeness with that half hour of silence, serving as a type of Selah (musical rest) per the Psalms.

No, nor does the 7th Seal happen prior to the 1st trumpet. You are only going by the order John was given the events, and not actually concentrating on the EVENT itself. Since the 6th Seal reveals the day of Christ's coming and His cup of wrath upon the wicked, that is the LAST DAY of this world, the END, period, Selah.

With the 7 Trumpets, they are about the same order as the 6 Seals of Revelation 6, just another parallel view. Same thing with the 7 Vials. This is why the 7th Trumpet and 7th Vial both also show the time of God's cup of wrath upon the wicked, just like the 6th Seal does.

Of course the 144k are sealed, even before the 7th Seal is opened. The 7th Seal is opened before the 1st Trumpet sounds, so the 144k are sealed and protected during all the Trumpets and all 7 Thunders.

No, the 1st Trumpet does not happen then. Proof? Because when the 7th seal happens, it means it's all over. How? Because the 5th-6th Trumpet EVENTS reveal the "great tribulation" time, and the 7th Trumpet EVENTS the day of Jesus' return and cup of His wrath poured out, i.e., the last day of this world.

Like I said, you are NOT UNDERSTANDING THE EVENTS, but are wrongly focused upon the number order of the seals, trumpets, and vials, and the order John was shown them. Understand the EVENTS first, and then you will understand the proper number order.

Jesus comes on 777.

The devil comes on 666.

I did not say this multitude in heaven between the 6th and 7th Seals is only those raptured. Why would any one make that nonsensical claim? I said it was the entire church from all time raptured, completed, and glorified.

The 144,000 of Revelation 7 are NOT being shown raptured. The whole Chapter is about the Sealing of Christ's Church. The 144,000 simply represent those of the literal seed of Israel that are sealed in prep for the great tribulation.

As I have said before, the "great multitude" represents the Gentiles that are 'sealed' in prep for the great tribulation, even though it says nothing about their sealing. Only by understanding what God's seal (by The Holy Spirit) represents do we know they are sealed too, and by being shown they are gathered by Christ in final. Many of those latter Revelation 7 verses are showing their being with Jesus during in His future Millennial reign.

So really, the whole Revelation 7 chapter is about Christ's faithful Church 'sealed' to go through the great tribulation, and overcome in Jesus Christ. Thus man's false tribulation saints idea that says Jews convert to Jesus 'during'... the great tribulation, is simply a falsehood devised by the pre-trib rapture school in attempt to pump up their false pre-trib rapture doctrine.

There are several Old Testament Scriptures by God's prophets that mention the seed of Israel along with saved Gentiles, which is a pointer to Christ's Church. Isaiah 54:3 is one of them.

You don't even put the raptured saints in there. You place them in heaven after the 6 vials, years later. You have one group after the 6th Seal, and then the "living on earth group" years later.

Then you declare all views heretical except your view that splits the church into two different segments.

Man, that sure is some wild ideas!

"Years later"? Do you even know what you're saying?

Your heeding men's doctrines so long has got you totally confused, especially when you hear the Truth in God's Word presented to you!

1. you don't have a clue about Heaven regarding Christ's coming.
2. 1 Thessalonians 4 teaches TWO GROUPS of saints being gathered by Christ, a.) those asleep that Jesus brings with Him, and b.) those still alive on earth that are "caught up" to Him.
3. The 1 Thessalonians 4 events happen on the LAST DAY OF THIS WORLD. Apostle Paul CONTINUED in 1 Thessalonians 5 with the TIMING of Christ's coming on the "day of the Lord".
4. The "day of the Lord" ONLY happens on the LAST DAY, FOR IT IS ABOUT GOD'S DESTRUCTION upon the wicked, ending this present world.
5. IMPOSSIBLE for any tribulation by the wicked to occur when THE DAY OF THE LORD HAPPENS TO END THIS WORLD.
6. The 7th Trumpet is the "last trump" of Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 15. It is the day of the resurrection.
7. The events on the 6th Trumpet is about the time of "great tribulation".
8. The events on the 5th Trumpet is about events in prep for the "great tribulation".
9. The 7th Vial is when the battle of Armageddon happens, the last day of this world when Jesus return.
10. The Zechariah 14:1-4 verses are about the battle of Armageddon on the last day of this world with Jesus' future return to the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem.
11. Acts 1 revealed by the two angels that appeared to Christ's Apostles, said Jesus would return "in like manner" as they saw Him ascend into Heaven. Thus it's a no brainer that Zechariah 14 reveals Jesus's feet touching down upon the Mount of Olives in Jerusalem when He comes.
12. Per Zechariah 14, Jesus' feet touch down upon the Mount of Olives, on earth, ON THE DAY OF THE LORD, as written there.
13. Again, THE DAY OF THE LORD means the LAST DAY of this present world.

 

[Timtofly]

No, nor does the 7th Seal happen prior to the 1st trumpet. You are only going by the order John was given the events, and not actually concentrating on the EVENT itself. Since the 6th Seal reveals the day of Christ's coming and His cup of wrath upon the wicked, that is the LAST DAY of this world, the END, period, Selah.

And herein is your problem. You listen to those who have declared Armageddon as the Second Coming. It is not. The 6th Seal is the Second Coming.

 

[ewq1938]

And herein is your problem. You listen to those who have declared Armageddon as the Second Coming. It is not. The 6th Seal is the Second Coming.

Armageddon is part of the second coming. Everyone knows that. You are a lone wolf on that.

 

[Davy]

And herein is your problem. You listen to those who have declared Armageddon as the Second Coming. It is not. The 6th Seal is the Second Coming.

The 6th Seal, 7th Trumpet, and 7th Vial are ALL... about the day of Christ's coming. He ONLY comes one more time, not two or three, or four. You are listening to men's FALSE doctrines which tries to ADD a third coming with the false pre-trib rapture theory!

 

[Timtofly]

Armageddon is part of the second coming. Everyone knows that. You are a lone wolf on that.

The part after Daniel 9:27. You all seem to be waiting for Satan and the AoD. I am waiting for the Second Coming, only.

 

[Timtofly]

The 6th Seal, 7th Trumpet, and 7th Vial are ALL... about the day of Christ's coming. He ONLY comes one more time, not two or three, or four. You are listening to men's FALSE doctrines which tries to ADD a third coming with the false pre-trib rapture theory!

The Day of the Lord is the whole 1,000 year reign on earth. The Second Coming is what brings Christ the Prince to earth. I did not take you for an Amillennial.

 

[ewq1938]

The part after Daniel 9:27. You all seem to be waiting for Satan and the AoD. I am waiting for the Second Coming, only.

That isn't a better position to take. It's foolish and dangerous. I watch for ALL the signs and events Christ warned us of.

 

[Timtofly]

That isn't a better position to take. It's foolish and dangerous. I watch for ALL the signs and events Christ warned us of.

Watching for Christ is worse than watching for Satan?

 

[ewq1938]

Watching for Christ is worse than watching for Satan?

Watchmen are to watch for everything, not just the last thing.

 

[Timtofly]

Watchmen are to watch for everything, not just the last thing.

Not even the two witnesses are looking for Armageddon. They are killed 3.5 days prior to Armageddon. They testify for 1260 days. The same 42 month time period. They are taken up into heaven just hours before Armageddon. Why would they be waiting for an event after they ascend into heaven? They will be watching from above or in that group that comes with Jesus at Armageddon. Unless you are one who declares they are not two literal humans and the whole church gets killed in Jerusalem just 3.5 days prior to Armageddon. That makes less sense than accepting the 6th Seal is the Actual Second Coming.

 

[ewq1938]

Not even the two witnesses are looking for Armageddon. They are killed 3.5 days prior to Armageddon.

That's the two prophets who are one half of the two witnesses.

Why would they be waiting for an event after they ascend into heaven? They will be watching from above or in that group that comes with Jesus at Armageddon.

You just answered your question without realizing it.

Unless you are one who declares they are not two literal humans and the whole church gets killed in Jerusalem just 3.5 days prior to Armageddon.

Paul informed us that some of the Church survives the Great Tribulation.

That makes less sense than accepting the 6th Seal is the Actual Second Coming.

The 6th seal is not when the second coming happens.

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

The second coming does not happen just because it is described. It is exactly the same with the 6th seal. The second coming defacto occurs at the 7th trump, long after the 6th seal was opened.

 

[Timtofly]

That's the two prophets who are one half of the two witnesses.




You just answered your question without realizing it.




Paul informed us that some of the Church survives the Great Tribulation.



The 6th seal is not when the second coming happens.

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

The second coming does not happen just because it is described. It is exactly the same with the 6th seal. The second coming defacto occurs at the 7th trump, long after the 6th seal was opened.

I guess you are one who invites people to a meal, and tell them to arrive after the meal is all over then?

No one survives Armageddon, the meal was over before it even started.

The only sign of the Second Coming is the Second Coming. Jesus:

"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

The only sign is the Second Coming. That is how a thief operates. You know the thief arrived because they are there.

Now tell me how Armageddon is a surprise? God brings all of what is left of humanity to the battle. So there is no surprise. They know exactly what is coming. They are not mourning nor even have time to cry. They are all dead. There is not even a judgment for the dead. Their souls are in death, their bodies eaten by the birds.

 

[n2thelight]

Yes!! After the rapture millions will see their great error and choose to become believers.

How does one get saved without the Holy Spirit ?