1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured Trinity vs. Tritheism: Understanding the Trinity.

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by justbyfaith, Jan 8, 2019.

  1. GodsGrace

    GodsGrace Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    9,146
    Likes Received:
    5,011
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Italy
    By jove,,,I think you've got it !!

    Of course it's difficult to tell....
    Whenever we try to explain the Trinity or Godhead, we run into problems and sometimes even state heresies.

    God is one BEING/PERSON.
    OK

    There are 2 other persons living IN HIM
    and they DO have a relationship with each other.

    Each one has a specific task(s) to do.
    I can even tell you what they are!

    (if you can't guess)
     
  2. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    6,197
    Likes Received:
    1,601
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    2 other persons living in him? GG, are you real?. listen, Isaiah 44:6 "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God".
    GG, did you not hear what God almighty just said. beside him there is NO, NO, NO, God, meaning that there is only him. no one is living in him. nor do he "know" any other person in or beside him. did you hear what God said, "he don't KNOW any other person in him". so that want fly.

    PICJAG.
     
  3. OzSpen

    OzSpen Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,188
    Likes Received:
    538
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Australia
    brakelite,

    Why don't you refer us to the Bible verses that teach what you say so we can discuss them in context?

    Oz
     
    GodsGrace likes this.
  4. GodsGrace

    GodsGrace Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    9,146
    Likes Received:
    5,011
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Italy
    You're lucky I'm in a funny mood right now.

    Isaiah 44:6
    MAN! How far back you gotta go to get what YOU believe?

    Listen to me.
    You wrote Christian under your avatar name.
    I'm not sayin' you're not Christian.
    God bless you for being one and I hope to see you in heaven one day...
    You know, we will finally find out who was right! (it'll be me, of course).

    I AM saying that Christians believe in the Trinity.
    That means THREE PERSONS
    living in ONE GOD.

    So tell me this...
    who was this Jesus person?
     
  5. OzSpen

    OzSpen Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,188
    Likes Received:
    538
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Australia
    No, the one Spirit who lives in you is the Holy Spirit.

    See 1 Cor 12:13: 'Just as a body, though one, has many parts, but all its many parts form one body, so it is with Christ. For we were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink' (1 Cor 1:12-13 NIV).

    Oz
     
  6. GodsGrace

    GodsGrace Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    9,146
    Likes Received:
    5,011
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Italy
    @OzSpen
    Good evening OzSpen,,,

    GG here...hearing funny things about God.
    Seems some here must believe in a God they can understand 100%.
    And if they cannot...they seem to make up their very own doctrine.
    In the US they say they want to "throw in the towel".
    In Italy they say they want to "throw in the sponge".

    I'm about ready to throw both in, which means...:
    I give up!
     
  7. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    7,869
    Likes Received:
    1,884
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    The Father is a Spirit according to John 4:23-24, Ephesians 4:6. The Holy Ghost is also a Spirit according to John 7:39. Jesus is a Spirit according to Colossians 1:27, 1 John 5:12.

    These are one Spirit (Ephesians 4:4); for the scripture cannot be broken.
     
  8. OzSpen

    OzSpen Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,188
    Likes Received:
    538
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Australia
    GodsGrace,

    For the orthodox understanding of the Trinity, we need to differentiate between the essence/nature of the one God and the 3 persons of the Trinity. It's important to recognise that the one God is not a person but that Father, Son and Holy Spirit are persons.

    Only moments ago I found this article that helpfully (for me) explains it: What Do We Mean by “Person” and “Essence” in the Doctrine of the Trinity?

    In this article, it helpfully provides another dimension to the diagram you gave. It won't copy for me.

    Oz

     
  9. GodsGrace

    GodsGrace Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    9,146
    Likes Received:
    5,011
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Italy
    @OzSpen


    Here's the image:

    [​IMG]



    Here's the article for those reading along:


    The internal lines identify the nature, substance, or essence of each person:

    1. The Father is God.
    2. The Son is God.
    3. The Holy Spirit is God.
    Basil of Caesarea, writing in the 370s (Letter 236.6), gives a good explanation for why we say “God the Father,” “God the Son,” and “God the Spirit”:

    The distinction between ousia and hupostasis is the same as that between the generaland the particular; as, for instance, between the animal and the particular man.

    Wherefore, in the case of the Godhead, we confess one essence or substance so as not to give a variant definition of existence, but we confess a particular hypostasis, in order that our conception of Father, Son and Holy Spirit may be without confusion and clear.

    If we have no distinct perception of the separate characteristics, namely, fatherhood, sonship, and sanctification, but form our conception of God from the general idea of existence, we cannot possibly give a sound account of our faith.

    We must, therefore, confess the faith by adding the particular to the common. The Godhead is common; the fatherhood particular. We must therefore combine the two and say, I believe in God the Father.

    The like course must be pursued in the confession of the Son; we must combine the particular with the common and say I believe in God the Son, so in the case of the Holy Ghost we must make our utterance conform to the appellation and say in God the Holy Ghost.

    The lines of the triangle represent two sets of propositions. First, they remind us that while each of the persons in the Godhead is God (fully divine), the persons are distinct. In other words:

    1. The Father is not the Son.
    2. The Son is not the Father.
    3. The Father is not the Holy Spirit.
    4. The Holy Spirit is not the Father.
    5. The Son is not the Holy Spirit.
    6. The Holy Spirit is not the Son.
    After all, the Father is never “sent” in Scripture. Nor is he incarnated or poured out at Pentecost. The Spirit does not die on the cross for our sins. The Father begets the Son, not vice-versa. The Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son.

    Another aspect indicated by the lines on the triangle is that of mutual indwelling (or perichoresis). The three persons indwell each other in the one being of God. So:

    1. The Father is in the Son.
    2. The Son is in the Father.
    3. The Father is in the Holy Spirit.
    4. The Holy Spirit is in the Father.
    5. The Son is in the Holy Spirit.
    6. The Holy Spirit is in the Son.
    Finally, each of the three persons in the one being of God glorify one another. As Gregory of Nyssa writes, there is a “revolving circle” of glory:

    The Son is glorified by the Spirit; the Father is glorified by the Son; again the Son has His glory from the Father; and the Only-begotten thus becomes the glory of the Spirit. . . . In like manner, again, Faith completes the circle, and glorifies the Son by means of the Spirit, and the Father by means of the Son. (Gregory of Nyssa, On the Holy Spirit, in NPNF, Second Series, 5:324).

    If you are looking for some good books to read on this all-important topic, Fred Sanders says that Our Triune God: Living in the Love of the Three-in-One (by Ryken and LeFebreve) “is the best book to put in somebody’s hands if they’re asking for an introduction to the doctrine.”

    J. I. Packer says that The Holy Trinity: In Scripture, History, Theology, and Worship (by Robert Letham) “is far and away the best big textbook on the Trinity that you can find, and it will surely remain so for many years to come.”

    And the best two books on why this matters and how it relates to all of life and theology, see Fred Sanders’ The Deep Things of God: How the Trinity Changes Everything and Mike Reeves’ Delighting in the Trinity: An Introduction to the Christian Faith.


    source: What Do We Mean by "Person" and "Essence" in the Doctrine of the Trinity?
     
    OzSpen likes this.
  10. OzSpen

    OzSpen Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,188
    Likes Received:
    538
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Australia
    GG,

    I'm reading plenty of human-made doctrines here that are not based on a careful exposition of Scripture. I have placed some of these on Ignore, especially when they don't want to deal with the biblical data that contradicts their views.

    Trust you are enjoying a beautiful summer in Tuscany as the night-time temps get a little nippy in the sub-tropics of Brisbane. It was 6C overnight and is expected to go to a sunny 22C today. Beautiful weather.

    Blessings,
    Oz
     
    GodsGrace likes this.
  11. OzSpen

    OzSpen Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,188
    Likes Received:
    538
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Australia
    No, God is one essence/nature and there are three different persons in the Godhead: Father, Son & Holy Spirit.
     
  12. Rollo Tamasi

    Rollo Tamasi Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,292
    Likes Received:
    1,478
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    sure, 3 Gods, 3 Gods, 3 Gods in one...
    anyone who thinks they know the trinity is talking to themselves
    what kind of following could they have?
    I think when we get to heaven, we'll find a bunch of more Gods we have never been introduced to yet.
     
    GodsGrace likes this.
  13. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    7,869
    Likes Received:
    1,884
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    I'm more in agreement with this diagram than with some of the others I've seen.

    I think, however, that everything must be interpreted in light of the fact that the name of the son that was given shall be called among other things the everlasting Father. Isaiah 9:6.
     
  14. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    7,869
    Likes Received:
    1,884
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    They are the same Spirit, the same Lord, and the same God (1 Corinthians 12:4-6).
     
  15. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    6,197
    Likes Received:
    1,601
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    @GG, and Oz, denial is the result of the delusion.
    PICJAG
     
  16. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    7,869
    Likes Received:
    1,884
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Amen, it is written in Isaiah 53:10 that Jesus gave up His soul as an offering for sin.

    I'd like to hear more of what the author has to say about the intricacies of how these things pan out in his mind.

    I think that it should be clear also that the Father is a Spirit (John 4:23-24, Ephesians 4:6); that the Holy Ghost is a Spirit (John 7:37-39, 2 Timothy 1:14); and that the Son is a Spirit (Colossians 1:27, 1 John 5:12); but that there is one Spirit (Ephesians 4:4).
     
  17. GodsGrace

    GodsGrace Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    9,146
    Likes Received:
    5,011
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Italy
    Agree!
     
  18. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    7,869
    Likes Received:
    1,884
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Is that, "I agree with you" or "I want you to agree with me"?
     
  19. GodsGrace

    GodsGrace Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    9,146
    Likes Received:
    5,011
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Italy
    I couldn't agree with you more.
    Well, maybe just a little more...but not much more.

    NOBODY, and I mean NOBODY understands the Trinity.
    Not even those guys that write books about it.
    We know all the lingo,,,but we still don't really understand it.

    When we get to heaven we're all going to be shocked...
    God will be laughing at all of us, saying...
    You thought you could understand me????

    Yeah. He made the universe, matter, space and time...
    but we want to understand Him.
     
  20. GodsGrace

    GodsGrace Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    9,146
    Likes Received:
    5,011
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Italy
    My agrees are always of the first variety.
     
Loading...