Trinity

[theefaith]

Trinity / Divinity

1 Jn 1:2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us

2 cor 13:14

14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.

Heb 9:14

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

The Didache
“After the foregoing instructions, baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living [running] water. . . . If you have neither, pour water three times on the head, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit” (Didache 7:1 [A.D. 70]).

Ignatius of Antioch
“[T]o the Church at Ephesus in Asia . . . chosen through true suffering by the will of the Father in Jesus Christ our God” (Letter to the Ephesians 1 [A.D. 110]).

“For our God, Jesus Christ, was conceived by Mary in accord with God’s plan: of the seed of David, it is true, but also of the Holy Spirit” (ibid., 18:2).

Justin Martyr
“We will prove that we worship him reasonably; for we have learned that he is the Son of the true God himself, that he holds a second place, and the Spirit of prophecy a third. For this they accuse us of madness, saying that we attribute to a crucified man a place second to the unchangeable and eternal God, the Creator of all things; but they are ignorant of the mystery which lies therein” (First Apology 13:5–6 [A.D. 151]).

Theophilus of Antioch
“It is the attribute of God, of the most high and almighty and of the living God, not only to be everywhere, but also to see and hear all; for he can in no way be contained in a place. . . . The three days before the luminaries were created are types of the Trinity: God, his Word, and his Wisdom” (To Autolycus 2:15 [A.D. 181]).

Irenaeus
“For the Church, although dispersed throughout the whole world even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and from their disciples the faith in one God, the Father Almighty . . . and in one Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who became flesh for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit” (Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 189]).

Tertullian
“We do indeed believe that there is only one God, but we believe that under this dispensation, or, as we say, oikonomia, there is also a Son of this one only God, his Word, who proceeded from him and through whom all things were made and without whom nothing was made. . . . We believe he was sent down by the Father, in accord with his own promise, the Holy Spirit, the Paraclete, the sanctifier of the faith of those who believe in the Father and the Son, and in the Holy Spirit” (Against Praxeas 2 [A.D. 216]).

“And at the same time the mystery of the oikonomia is safeguarded, for the unity is distributed in a Trinity. Placed in order, the three are the Father, Son, and Spirit. They are three, however, not in condition, but in degree; not in being, but in form; not in power, but in kind; of one being, however, and one condition and one power, because he is one God of whom degrees and forms and kinds are taken into account in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit” (ibid.).

“Keep always in mind the rule of faith which I profess and by which I bear witness that the Father and the Son and the Spirit are inseparable from each other, and then you will understand what is meant by it. Observe now that I say the Father is other [distinct], the Son is other, and the Spirit is other. This statement is wrongly understood by every uneducated or perversely disposed individual, as if it meant diversity and implied by that diversity a separation of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit” (ibid., 9).

“Thus the connection of the Father in the Son, and of the Son in the Paraclete, produces three coherent persons, who are yet distinct one from another. These three are, one essence, not one person, as it is said, ‘I and my Father are one’ [John 10:30], in respect of unity of being not singularity of number” (ibid., 25).

Origen
“For we do not hold that which the heretics imagine: that some part of the being of God was converted into the Son, or that the Son was procreated by the Father from non-existent substances, that is, from a being outside himself, so that there was a time when he [the Son] did not exist” (The Fundamental Doctrines 4:4:1 [A.D. 225]).

“For it is the Trinity alone which exceeds every sense in which not only temporal but even eternal may be understood. It is all other things, indeed, which are outside the Trinity, which are to be measured by time and ages” (ibid.).

Hippolytus
“The Word alone of this God is from God himself, wherefore also the Word is God, being the being of God” (Refutation of All Heresies 10:29 [A.D. 228]).

Pope Dionysius
“Next, then, I may properly turn to those who divide and cut apart and destroy the most sacred proclamation of the Church of God, making of it [the Trinity], as it were, three powers, distinct substances, and three godheads. . . . [Some heretics] proclaim that there are in some way three gods, when they divide the sacred unity into three substances foreign to each other and completely separate” (Letter to Dionysius of Alexandria 1 [A.D. 262]).

“Therefore, the divine Trinity must be gathered up and brought together in one, a summit, as it were, I mean the omnipotent God of the universe. . . . It is blasphemy, then, and not a common one but the worst, to say that the Son is in any way a handiwork [creature]. . . . But if the Son came into being [was created], there was a time when these attributes did not exist; and, consequently, there was a time when God was without them, which is utterly absurd” (ibid., 1–2).

“Neither, then, may we divide into three godheads the wonderful and divine unity. . . . Rather, we must believe in God, the Father Almighty; and in Christ Jesus, his Son; and in the Holy Spirit; and that the Word is united to the God of the universe. ‘For,’ he says, ‘The Father and I are one,’ and ‘I am in the Father, and the Father in me’” (ibid., 3).

Gregory the Wonderworker
“There is one God. . . . There is a perfect Trinity, in glory and eternity and sovereignty, neither divided nor estranged. Wherefore there is nothing either created or in servitude in the Trinity; nor anything superinduced, as if at some former period it was non-existent, and at some later period it was introduced. And thus neither was the Son ever wanting to the Father, nor the Spirit to the Son; but without variation and without change, the same Trinity abides ever” (Declaration of Faith [A.D. 265]).

Sechnall of Ireland
“Hymns, with Revelation and the Psalms of God [Patrick] sings, and does expound the same for the edifying of God’s people. This law he holds in the Trinity of the sacred Name and teaches one being in three persons” (Hymn in Praise of St. Patrick 22 [A.D. 444]).

Patrick of Ireland
“I bind to myself today the strong power of an invocation of the Trinity—the faith of the Trinity in unity, the Creator of the universe” (The Breastplate of St. Patrick 1 [A.D. 447]).

“[T]here is no other God, nor has there been heretofore, nor will there be hereafter, except God the Father unbegotten, without beginning, from whom is all beginning, upholding all things, as we say, and his Son Jesus Christ, whom we likewise to confess to have always been with the Father—before the world’s beginning. . . . Jesus Christ is the Lord and God in whom we believe . . . and who has poured out on us abundantly the Holy Spirit . . . whom we confess and adore as one God in the Trinity of the sacred Name” (Confession of St. Patrick 4 [A.D. 452]).

Augustine
“All the Catholic interpreters of the divine books of the Old and New Testaments whom I have been able to read, who wrote before me about the Trinity, which is God, intended to teach in accord with the Scriptures that the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are of one and the same substance constituting a divine unity with an inseparable equality; and therefore there are not three gods but one God, although the Father begot the Son, and therefore he who is the Son is not the Father; and the Holy Spirit is neither the Father nor the Son but only the Spirit of the Father and of the Son, himself, too, coequal to the Father and to the Son and belonging to the unity of the Trinity” (The Trinity1:4:7 [A.D. 408]).

Fulgence of Ruspe
“See, in short you have it that the Father is one, the Son another, and the Holy Spirit another; in Person, each is other, but in nature they are not other. In this regard he says: ‘The Father and I, we are one’ (John 10:30). He teaches us that one refers to their nature, and we are to their Persons. In like manner it is said: ‘There are three who bear witness in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Spirit; and these three are one’ (1 John 5:7)” (The Trinity 4:1–2 [c. A.D. 515]).

“But in the one true God and Trinity it is naturally true not only that God is one but also that he is a Trinity, for the reason that the true God himself is a Trinity of Persons and one in nature. Through this natural unity the whole Father is in the Son and in the Holy Spirit, and the whole Holy Spirit, too, is in the Father and in the Son. None of these is outside any of the others; because no one of them precedes any other of them in eternity or exceeds any other in greatness, or is superior to any other in power” (The Rule of Faith 4 [c. A.D. 523).

 

[theefaith]

Athanasius Creed!
(From the early church)
Whoever desires to be saved must above all hold to the catholic faith.

Anyone who does not keep it whole and entire will doubtless perish eternally.

Now this is the catholic faith:

That we worship one God in trinity and the trinity in unity, neither blending their persons nor dividing their essence. For the person of the Father is a distinct person, the person of the Son is another,
and that of the Holy Spirit still another.
But the divinity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one, their glory equal, their majesty coeternal.

What quality the Father has, the Son has, and the Holy Spirit has. The Father is uncreated, the Son is uncreated, the Holy Spirit is uncreated.

The Father is immeasurable, the Son is immeasurable, the Holy Spirit is immeasurable.

The Father is eternal, the Son is eternal,
the Holy Spirit is eternal.

And yet there are not three eternal beings; there is but one eternal being.
So too there are not three uncreated or immeasurable beings, there is but one uncreated and immeasurable being.

Similarly, the Father is almighty, the Son is almighty, the Holy Spirit is almighty. Yet there are not three almighty beings;
there is but one almighty being.

Thus the Father is God,
the Son is God,
the Holy Spirit is God.
Yet there are not three gods;
there is but one God.

Thus the Father is Lord,
the Son is Lord,
the Holy Spirit is Lord.
Yet there are not three lords;
there is but one Lord.

Just as Christian truth compels us
to confess each person individually
as both God and Lord, so catholic religion forbids us to say that there are three gods or lords.

The Father was neither made nor created nor begotten from anyone. The Son was neither made nor created; he was begotten from the Father alone. The Holy Spirit was neither made nor created nor begotten; he proceeds from the Father and the Son.

Accordingly there is one Father, not three fathers; there is one Son, not three sons;
there is one Holy Spirit, not three holy spirits.

Nothing in this trinity is before or after,
nothing is greater or smaller; in their entirety the three persons are coeternal and coequal with each other.

So in everything, as was said earlier,
we must worship their trinity in their unity and their unity in their trinity.

Anyone then who desires to be saved
should think thus about the trinity.

But it is necessary for eternal salvation
that one also believe in the incarnation
of our Lord Jesus Christ faithfully.

Now this is the true faith:

That we believe and confess
that our Lord Jesus Christ, God's Son,
is both God and human, equally.

He is God from the essence of the Father,
begotten before time; and he is human from the essence of his mother, born in time; completely God, completely human, with a rational soul and human flesh; equal to the Father as regards divinity, less than the Father as regards humanity.

Although he is God and human,
yet Christ is not two, but one.
He is one, however, not by his divinity being turned into flesh, but by God's taking humanity to himself.He is one,
certainly not by the blending of his essence, but by the unity of his person.
For just as one human is both rational soul and flesh, so too the one Christ is both God and human.

He suffered for our salvation; he descended to hell; he arose from the dead; he ascended to heaven; he is seated at the Father's right hand; from there he will come to judge the living and the dead. At his coming all people will arise bodily and give an accounting of their own deeds. Those who have done good will enter eternal life, and those who have done evil will enter eternal fire.

This is the catholic faith:
one cannot be saved without believing it firmly and faithfully.

Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord God of hosts!

 

[theefaith]

Jesus is worshipped!
Only God may be worshipped!

Matthew 4:10
Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Matthew 2:11
And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense and myrrh.

Matthew 8:2
And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.

Matthew 9:18
While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live.

Matthew 14:33
Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.

Matthew 15:25
Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.

John 9:38
And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.

 

[Andreas]

Worship of The Son

Phil. 2:5-11

9 Consequently, also, God highly exalted Him and gave to Him the name above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee might bow, of celestial, of terrestrial, and of subterranean,32 11 and every tongue should acknowledge that Jesus Anointed is Master to the glory of God the Father.33

Text Notes
32 This does not refer to the ‘ghosts’ of dead people praising the Anointed, allegedly in the mythological, subterranean domain of the god Hades. Scripture is clear that the dead cannot praise God. “For in death there is no remembrance of You; In the grave who will give You thanks?” (Psalm 6:5); and “The dead do not praise the LORD, Nor any who go down into silence” (Psalm 115:17), and “For Sheol cannot thank You, Death cannot praise You; Those who go down to the pit cannot hope for Your truth” (Isa. 38:18). Rather, Paul borrowed this expression from the Torah which refers to all living creatures, the birds of the sky, land animals, and sea creatures which are beneath the land (below sea level). “You shall not make for yourself a carved image — any likeness of anything that is in the sky above, or that is in the land beneath, or that is in the water below the land” (Exodus 20:4). Pagans made gods in the form of these creatures to worship. Paul’s point here was that even the air, land, and sea creatures (which the pagans worshipped) will themselves bow down and confess that Jesus Anointed is their Master, the ruler of all. This will occur in the Kingdom, when nature is restored to its pristine condition, and the animals obey the voice of the King (Isa. 11:6-9). The animals confessing the Anointed’s supremacy is described in Rev 5:13: “And I heard every creature, those in the sky, and on land, and below the land, even upon the sea and all that are in them, saying: ‘To the One sitting on the throne and to the Lamb [be] blessing and honor and glory and power unto the ages of the ages!’”
33 Isa. 45:23



Hebrews 1:6 Yet, whenever He again should bring the first-produced into the world He says, “And give worship to Him all the messengers of God.”20
Text Notes

20 Deut. 32:44 LXX* (the quoted clause does not appear in the Hebrew text). “Be glad O skies together with Him! And give worship to Him all the messengers of God! Be glad, O gentiles with His people, and grow in strength in Him all you sons of God! For the blood of His sons He shall avenge, and He shall avenge and recompense punishment to the enemies, and to those despising Him He will repay. And the Master shall purge the Land for His people.” The personal pronouns, Him, He, and His, all have as their antecedent the “Rock” mentioned in verses 4, 15, 18, 30, & 31. Paul wrote in 1 Cor. 10:4 that this “Rock” which carried Israel in the wilderness was Christ. Here Paul interpreted the closing verse of the Song of Moses as referring to the Father’s sending the Son into the world the second time, when He will “purge the Land for His people.” The Hebrew text says “He will provide atonement for His land and His people.” This is what was done symbolically every year on Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement, (Lev. 16:16-19). It is the day of Christ’s return, when He will cleanse the sins of the nation of Israel (Joel 3:21; Zech. 13:1; Rom. 11:25-27). 21 Psalm 104:4 The celestial messengers are mere “servants,” clearly inferior to the Son

Revelation 5:8-14 And when He took the scroll, the four creatures and the twenty-four elders bowed down before the Lamb.............

14 And the four creatures said: “Amen!” And the twenty-four elders bowed down and worshiped.

There are also several other scriptures in the Old Testament that refer to worship of Our Master Anointed Jesus.

 

[APAK]

@theefaith I see you are at it again with another attempt to convince based on zero pillars of truth and then standing on sand.

It would have been much more fitting if you started this thread on the 1st of April rather that the 4th.

 

[theefaith]

Worship of The Son

Phil. 2:5-11

9 Consequently, also, God highly exalted Him and gave to Him the name above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee might bow, of celestial, of terrestrial, and of subterranean,32 11 and every tongue should acknowledge that Jesus Anointed is Master to the glory of God the Father.33

Text Notes
32 This does not refer to the ‘ghosts’ of dead people praising the Anointed, allegedly in the mythological, subterranean domain of the god Hades. Scripture is clear that the dead cannot praise God. “For in death there is no remembrance of You; In the grave who will give You thanks?” (Psalm 6:5); and “The dead do not praise the LORD, Nor any who go down into silence” (Psalm 115:17), and “For Sheol cannot thank You, Death cannot praise You; Those who go down to the pit cannot hope for Your truth” (Isa. 38:18). Rather, Paul borrowed this expression from the Torah which refers to all living creatures, the birds of the sky, land animals, and sea creatures which are beneath the land (below sea level). “You shall not make for yourself a carved image — any likeness of anything that is in the sky above, or that is in the land beneath, or that is in the water below the land” (Exodus 20:4). Pagans made gods in the form of these creatures to worship. Paul’s point here was that even the air, land, and sea creatures (which the pagans worshipped) will themselves bow down and confess that Jesus Anointed is their Master, the ruler of all. This will occur in the Kingdom, when nature is restored to its pristine condition, and the animals obey the voice of the King (Isa. 11:6-9). The animals confessing the Anointed’s supremacy is described in Rev 5:13: “And I heard every creature, those in the sky, and on land, and below the land, even upon the sea and all that are in them, saying: ‘To the One sitting on the throne and to the Lamb [be] blessing and honor and glory and power unto the ages of the ages!’”
33 Isa. 45:23



Hebrews 1:6 Yet, whenever He again should bring the first-produced into the world He says, “And give worship to Him all the messengers of God.”20
Text Notes

20 Deut. 32:44 LXX* (the quoted clause does not appear in the Hebrew text). “Be glad O skies together with Him! And give worship to Him all the messengers of God! Be glad, O gentiles with His people, and grow in strength in Him all you sons of God! For the blood of His sons He shall avenge, and He shall avenge and recompense punishment to the enemies, and to those despising Him He will repay. And the Master shall purge the Land for His people.” The personal pronouns, Him, He, and His, all have as their antecedent the “Rock” mentioned in verses 4, 15, 18, 30, & 31. Paul wrote in 1 Cor. 10:4 that this “Rock” which carried Israel in the wilderness was Christ. Here Paul interpreted the closing verse of the Song of Moses as referring to the Father’s sending the Son into the world the second time, when He will “purge the Land for His people.” The Hebrew text says “He will provide atonement for His land and His people.” This is what was done symbolically every year on Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement, (Lev. 16:16-19). It is the day of Christ’s return, when He will cleanse the sins of the nation of Israel (Joel 3:21; Zech. 13:1; Rom. 11:25-27). 21 Psalm 104:4 The celestial messengers are mere “servants,” clearly inferior to the Son

Revelation 5:8-14 And when He took the scroll, the four creatures and the twenty-four elders bowed down before the Lamb.............

14 And the four creatures said: “Amen!” And the twenty-four elders bowed down and worshiped.

There are also several other scriptures in the Old Testament that refer to worship of Our Master Anointed Jesus.

Is Jesus God? The second person of the holy trinity?

 

[theefaith]

@theefaith I see you are at it again with another attempt to convince based on zero pillars of truth and then standing on sand.

It would have been much more fitting if you started this thread on the 1st of April rather that the 4th.

answers would be nice!

Lk 1:16 And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God.

Jn 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Jn 1:30 This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.

John brought them to Jesus

Jesus is the Lord their God!

More

Lk 1:68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,

69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;

Jesus visited and redeemed the people, Jesus is the horn of salvation!

Jesus is eternal God!

No wiggling out of this one!

Jesus is worshipped!
Only God may be worshipped!

Matthew 4:10
Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Matthew 2:11
And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense and myrrh.

Matthew 8:2
And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.

Matthew 9:18
While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live.

Matthew 14:33
Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.

Matthew 15:25
Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.

John 9:38
And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.





2 cor 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.

Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?


Only God can be all knowing and therefore the just judge!

Final judgement by Jesus Christ the eternal God!


John 15:5 apart from me you can do nothing!

Philippians 4:13
I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

Only God has this power!

the divinity of Christ and the holy trinity are “Christian doctrines” revealed by Christ to the church of the apostles; to deny them is to deny Christ and salvation!

2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

Trinity / Divinity

1 Jn 1:2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us

The Didache
“After the foregoing instructions, baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living [running] water. . . . If you have neither, pour water three times on the head, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit” (Didache 7:1 [A.D. 70]).

 

[APAK]

@theefaith he's something and maybe a little more complicated to read and yet concerns the ridiculousness of your trinity.

The noted Evangelical scholar (Trinitarian) Millard Erickson in his God in Three Persons said this nonsense regarding your trinity....do you agree with him, and then why?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"We have said...that God is three and that he is one, and that his threeness is with respect to a different aspect than his oneness. How can we grasp the referents of these terms? How can we ascertain that they really refer to anything objective?"
"It may also be necessary, in order to convey the unusual meaning involved in this doctrine, to utilize what analytical philosophers would term 'logically odd language.' This means using language in such a way as intentionally to commit grammatical errors. Thus, I have sometimes said of the Trinity, 'He are three,' or 'They is one.' For we have here a being whose nature falls outside our usual understanding of persons, and that nature can perhaps only be adequately expressed by using language that calls attention to the almost paradoxical character of the concepts."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This man sure makes my case, indeed. And if you are reading along, it should yours as well, and yet you will think he makes a lot of sense..??

So you said this in your last post to me....
........................
"Lk 1:16 And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God.
Jn 1:29-30 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of
This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.

John brought them to Jesus
Jesus is the Lord their God!"

-------------------------------
So in your trinity-biased mind you believe that you can at your convenience, interchange at will, the contextual meaning of the word 'Lord' (should actually be LORD so that there is no confusion) where it does mean God our Father and insert the the Christ as this Lord, when it suits your narrative.

If you go to Luke, Chapter 1, verses 6,8,9, 11 an 15 the implied definition is firmly established that 'Lord' is God the Father, and NOT Christ the Son. But you seen to ignore this fact and many other like it, and blaze on to get your false and illogical bottom line out with an exclamation point at its end.

Yes, John brought people to the Lord God, our Father through preaching the gospel of his Son, the Christ our Messiah and Lord the Master (This is not the Lord God our Father however). The Lord God is still the Father, and the Son is still the Christ and each shall never be the same 'person.' got it!

And there's no wriggling out of this one, as you said to me.

 

[theefaith]

@theefaith he's something and maybe a little more complicated to read and yet concerns the ridiculousness of your trinity.

The noted Evangelical scholar (Trinitarian) Millard Erickson in his God in Three Persons said this nonsense regarding your trinity....do you agree with him, and then why?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"We have said...that God is three and that he is one, and that his threeness is with respect to a different aspect than his oneness. How can we grasp the referents of these terms? How can we ascertain that they really refer to anything objective?"
"It may also be necessary, in order to convey the unusual meaning involved in this doctrine, to utilize what analytical philosophers would term 'logically odd language.' This means using language in such a way as intentionally to commit grammatical errors. Thus, I have sometimes said of the Trinity, 'He are three,' or 'They is one.' For we have here a being whose nature falls outside our usual understanding of persons, and that nature can perhaps only be adequately expressed by using language that calls attention to the almost paradoxical character of the concepts."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This man sure makes my case, indeed. And if you are reading along, it should yours as well, and yet you will think he makes a lot of sense..??

So you said this in your last post to me....
........................
"Lk 1:16 And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God.
Jn 1:29-30 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of
This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.

John brought them to Jesus
Jesus is the Lord their God!"

-------------------------------
So in your trinity-biased mind you believe that you can at your convenience, interchange at will, the contextual meaning of the word 'Lord' (should actually be LORD so that there is no confusion) where it does mean God our Father and insert the the Christ as this Lord, when it suits your narrative.

If you go to Luke, Chapter 1, verses 6,8,9, 11 an 15 the implied definition is firmly established that 'Lord' is God the Father, and NOT Christ the Son. But you seen to ignore this fact and many other like it, and blaze on to get your false and illogical bottom line out with an exclamation point at its end.

Yes, John brought people to the Lord God, our Father through preaching the gospel of his Son, the Christ our Messiah and Lord the Master (This is not the Lord God our Father however). The Lord God is still the Father, and the Son is still the Christ and each shall never be the same 'person.' got it!

And there's no wriggling out of this one, as you said to me.

the truth of the blessed trinity is a mystery

A mystery that requires faith
The just shall live by faith

three persons all having the same divine nature

 

[tigger 2]

Jesus is worshipped!
Only God may be worshipped!

Matthew 4:10
Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Matthew 2:11
And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense and myrrh.

Matthew 8:2
And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.

Matthew 9:18
While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live.

Matthew 14:33
Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.

Matthew 15:25
Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.

John 9:38
And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.

...........................................

The Greek word proskuneo (or proskyneo) is defined in the 1971 trinitarian United Bible Societies’ A Concise Greek-English Dictionary of the New Testament, p. 154: “[Proskuneo] worship; fall down and worship, kneel, bow low, fall at another’s feet.”

Even the trinitarian W. E. Vine writes in his An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, p. 1247:

“PROSKUNEO ... to make obeisance, do reverence to (from pros, towards, and kuneo, to kiss), is the most frequent word rendered ‘to worship’. It is used for an act of homage or reverence (a) to God ...; (b) to Christ ...; (c) to a man, Matt. 18:26.”

“Obeisance,” of course, shows “respect, submission, or reverence” - Webster’s New Collegiate Dictionary, 1961.

Noted Bible scholar J. H. Thayer defines proskuneo:

“prop. to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence ... hence in the N. T. by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication. It is used a. of homage shown to men of superior rank [position] ... Rev. 3:9 .... b. of homage rendered to God and the ascended Christ, to heavenly beings [angels]” - p. 548, Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, Baker Book House Publ., 1977.

Hasting’s A Dictionary of the Bible tells us:

“Worship, both as [noun] and verb, was formerly used of reverence or honour done to men as well as to God …” - p. 941, vol. 4.

The Hebrew word most often translated “worship” is shachah, and it is usually rendered as proskuneo in the Greek Septuagint version of the Old Testament. Unger and White say of this word: “Shachah ... ‘to worship, prostrate oneself, bow down.’” And,

“The act of bowing down in homage done before a superior [in rank] or a ruler. Thus David ‘bowed’ himself [shachah] before Saul (1 Sam. 24:8). Sometimes it is a social or economic superior to whom one bows, as when Ruth ‘bowed’ [shachah] to the ground before Boaz (Ruth 2:10).” - Nelson’s Expository Dictionary of the Old Testament, 1980, Thomas Nelson Publ., p. 482.

Perhaps the most famous Biblical Hebrew scholar of all, Gesenius, tells us in Gesenius’ Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon to the Old Testament, p. 813, (#7812), ‘Shachah’:

“(1) to prostrate oneself before anyone out of honor .... Those who used this mode of salutation fell on their knees and touched the ground with the forehead ..., and this honor was not only shown to superiors, such as kings and princes, 2 Sam. 9:8; but also to equals; Gen. 23:7.”

The act described by proskuneo (or shachah) was of bowing or kneeling, and it generally indicated an act of respect and a display of one’s willingness to submit to or serve another person who occupied a superior position, regardless of his nature (somewhat similar to a salute in the military today). It was done, of course, in its very highest sense to God alone, but it was also done, in a lower sense of the same word, to kings, angels, prophets, etc. That is why proskuneo is translated “prostrated himself before” at Matt. 18:26 NASB, even though the KJV uses “worship” there. Notice how other trinitarian translations render that verse (RSV and NIV for example) where a servant “worships” [proskuneo] his master. And that is why, in the account of the man blind from birth whom Jesus healed, we see that man giving proskuneo to Jesus at John 9:38. The ASV, in a footnote for John 9:38, says,

“The Greek word [proskuneo] denotes an act of reverence, whether paid to a creature, as here [Jesus], or to the Creator.”

At Rev. 3:9 Jesus shows the position of authority he will give to some of his human followers when he says he will make people “worship before thy feet.” - KJV. The word used there is proskuneo! The ASV again adds this footnote: “The Greek word [proskuneo] denotes an act of reverence whether paid to a creature, or the Creator.”

We can see the same thing at Is. 45:14. Here God, speaking to his faithful human followers of the last days, says:

“and they [the rest of surviving mankind] ... shall fall down [shachah - ‘worship’] unto thee, they shall make supplication [palal - ‘pray’: see The Jerusalem Bible and AT] unto thee, saying, Surely God is in thee [see IN/WITH study]; and there is none else.” - KJV, ASV. - cf. Is. 49:23.

Even the ancient Greek translation, the Septuagint, says at Is. 45:14 -

“and they ... shall [proskuneo - ‘worship’] thee and make supplication [proseuchomai - ‘pray’] to thee: because God is in thee; and there is no God beside thee, O Lord.” (Notice all the trinitarian-type “evidence” here that could “prove” these men are “equally God”!) - The Septuagint Version of the Old Testament, Greek and English, Zondervan Ed., 1970.

So we see that the king of Israel, for example, could receive proskuneo or shachah in his role as a representative of a higher authority (Jehovah), or he could receive it in recognition of his own earthly position of authority that God allowed him to have. For example, at 2 Sam. 14:22 Joab “worships” ‘my Lord’ (King David). The Hebrew word shachah translated in most places in the Bible as “worship” is here translated “did obeisance” in the RSV. In the Greek Septuagint the word used is proskuneo. So, in spite of their both sharing the same fleshly human nature, one gave the other proskuneo or shachah!

We see the same thing at 1 Kings 1:16, 31 when Bathsheba gives shachah to her husband and king, David. Not only does the Septuagint use proskuneo for these verses (3 Kings 1:16, 31 in Sept.), but at verses 21 and 31 she calls David, “The Lord of me” (“My Lord”).

Angels, when acting as representatives of Jehovah and speaking his words, could properly receive proskuneo as representatives for a superior authority.

Gen. 18:2 uses shachah to describe what Abraham did to the angels (p. 37, New Bible Dictionary, second ed., 1982, Tyndale House Publ.) who came to him, and what Lot did to two of those same angels (shachah) is described at Gen. 19:1 (Also see Unger and White, pp. 7 and 482.) Proskuneo is also used in these two scriptures in the Septuagint. Also see Numbers 22:31: Balaam “worshiped” (proskuneo - Sept. and shachah [”fell flat” - KJV] - Hebrew OT) the ANGEL and the angel accepted it! (Unlike Rev. 19:10 and 22:8, 9.)

“The angel of the Lord [angel of Jehovah/Yahweh], sometimes ‘the angel of God’ or ‘my (or ‘his’) angel,’ is represented in Scripture as a heavenly being sent by God to deal with men as his personal spokesman. In many passages he is virtually identified with God and speaks not merely in the name of God but as God in the first person singular.” - New Bible Dictionary, p. 38.

So, like the word theos ("God"/"a god"), proskuneo and shachah had different levels of meaning. Only God was to receive worship in the highest sense of the word.

 

[Matthias]

Is Jesus God? The second person of the holy trinity?

You asked a very good question. @Andreas, for reasons unknown to me, didn’t answer it; at least not in this thread.

I don’t presume to answer for him, but your question deserves an answer.

Is Jesus God? The second person of the holy Trinity?

In post-biblical trinitarian theology, yes.

In scripture, no.

 

[marksman]

Trinity / Divinity

1 Jn 1:2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us

2 cor 13:14

14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.

Heb 9:14

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

The Didache
“After the foregoing instructions, baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living [running] water. . . . If you have neither, pour water three times on the head, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit” (Didache 7:1 [A.D. 70]).

Ignatius of Antioch
“[T]o the Church at Ephesus in Asia . . . chosen through true suffering by the will of the Father in Jesus Christ our God” (Letter to the Ephesians 1 [A.D. 110]).

“For our God, Jesus Christ, was conceived by Mary in accord with God’s plan: of the seed of David, it is true, but also of the Holy Spirit” (ibid., 18:2).

Justin Martyr
“We will prove that we worship him reasonably; for we have learned that he is the Son of the true God himself, that he holds a second place, and the Spirit of prophecy a third. For this they accuse us of madness, saying that we attribute to a crucified man a place second to the unchangeable and eternal God, the Creator of all things; but they are ignorant of the mystery which lies therein” (First Apology 13:5–6 [A.D. 151]).

Theophilus of Antioch
“It is the attribute of God, of the most high and almighty and of the living God, not only to be everywhere, but also to see and hear all; for he can in no way be contained in a place. . . . The three days before the luminaries were created are types of the Trinity: God, his Word, and his Wisdom” (To Autolycus 2:15 [A.D. 181]).

Irenaeus
“For the Church, although dispersed throughout the whole world even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and from their disciples the faith in one God, the Father Almighty . . . and in one Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who became flesh for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit” (Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 189]).

Tertullian
“We do indeed believe that there is only one God, but we believe that under this dispensation, or, as we say, oikonomia, there is also a Son of this one only God, his Word, who proceeded from him and through whom all things were made and without whom nothing was made. . . . We believe he was sent down by the Father, in accord with his own promise, the Holy Spirit, the Paraclete, the sanctifier of the faith of those who believe in the Father and the Son, and in the Holy Spirit” (Against Praxeas 2 [A.D. 216]).

“And at the same time the mystery of the oikonomia is safeguarded, for the unity is distributed in a Trinity. Placed in order, the three are the Father, Son, and Spirit. They are three, however, not in condition, but in degree; not in being, but in form; not in power, but in kind; of one being, however, and one condition and one power, because he is one God of whom degrees and forms and kinds are taken into account in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit” (ibid.).

“Keep always in mind the rule of faith which I profess and by which I bear witness that the Father and the Son and the Spirit are inseparable from each other, and then you will understand what is meant by it. Observe now that I say the Father is other [distinct], the Son is other, and the Spirit is other. This statement is wrongly understood by every uneducated or perversely disposed individual, as if it meant diversity and implied by that diversity a separation of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit” (ibid., 9).

“Thus the connection of the Father in the Son, and of the Son in the Paraclete, produces three coherent persons, who are yet distinct one from another. These three are, one essence, not one person, as it is said, ‘I and my Father are one’ [John 10:30], in respect of unity of being not singularity of number” (ibid., 25).

Origen
“For we do not hold that which the heretics imagine: that some part of the being of God was converted into the Son, or that the Son was procreated by the Father from non-existent substances, that is, from a being outside himself, so that there was a time when he [the Son] did not exist” (The Fundamental Doctrines 4:4:1 [A.D. 225]).

“For it is the Trinity alone which exceeds every sense in which not only temporal but even eternal may be understood. It is all other things, indeed, which are outside the Trinity, which are to be measured by time and ages” (ibid.).

Hippolytus
“The Word alone of this God is from God himself, wherefore also the Word is God, being the being of God” (Refutation of All Heresies 10:29 [A.D. 228]).

Pope Dionysius
“Next, then, I may properly turn to those who divide and cut apart and destroy the most sacred proclamation of the Church of God, making of it [the Trinity], as it were, three powers, distinct substances, and three godheads. . . . [Some heretics] proclaim that there are in some way three gods, when they divide the sacred unity into three substances foreign to each other and completely separate” (Letter to Dionysius of Alexandria 1 [A.D. 262]).

“Therefore, the divine Trinity must be gathered up and brought together in one, a summit, as it were, I mean the omnipotent God of the universe. . . . It is blasphemy, then, and not a common one but the worst, to say that the Son is in any way a handiwork [creature]. . . . But if the Son came into being [was created], there was a time when these attributes did not exist; and, consequently, there was a time when God was without them, which is utterly absurd” (ibid., 1–2).

“Neither, then, may we divide into three godheads the wonderful and divine unity. . . . Rather, we must believe in God, the Father Almighty; and in Christ Jesus, his Son; and in the Holy Spirit; and that the Word is united to the God of the universe. ‘For,’ he says, ‘The Father and I are one,’ and ‘I am in the Father, and the Father in me’” (ibid., 3).

Gregory the Wonderworker
“There is one God. . . . There is a perfect Trinity, in glory and eternity and sovereignty, neither divided nor estranged. Wherefore there is nothing either created or in servitude in the Trinity; nor anything superinduced, as if at some former period it was non-existent, and at some later period it was introduced. And thus neither was the Son ever wanting to the Father, nor the Spirit to the Son; but without variation and without change, the same Trinity abides ever” (Declaration of Faith [A.D. 265]).

Sechnall of Ireland
“Hymns, with Revelation and the Psalms of God [Patrick] sings, and does expound the same for the edifying of God’s people. This law he holds in the Trinity of the sacred Name and teaches one being in three persons” (Hymn in Praise of St. Patrick 22 [A.D. 444]).

Patrick of Ireland
“I bind to myself today the strong power of an invocation of the Trinity—the faith of the Trinity in unity, the Creator of the universe” (The Breastplate of St. Patrick 1 [A.D. 447]).

“[T]here is no other God, nor has there been heretofore, nor will there be hereafter, except God the Father unbegotten, without beginning, from whom is all beginning, upholding all things, as we say, and his Son Jesus Christ, whom we likewise to confess to have always been with the Father—before the world’s beginning. . . . Jesus Christ is the Lord and God in whom we believe . . . and who has poured out on us abundantly the Holy Spirit . . . whom we confess and adore as one God in the Trinity of the sacred Name” (Confession of St. Patrick 4 [A.D. 452]).

Augustine
“All the Catholic interpreters of the divine books of the Old and New Testaments whom I have been able to read, who wrote before me about the Trinity, which is God, intended to teach in accord with the Scriptures that the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are of one and the same substance constituting a divine unity with an inseparable equality; and therefore there are not three gods but one God, although the Father begot the Son, and therefore he who is the Son is not the Father; and the Holy Spirit is neither the Father nor the Son but only the Spirit of the Father and of the Son, himself, too, coequal to the Father and to the Son and belonging to the unity of the Trinity” (The Trinity1:4:7 [A.D. 408]).

Fulgence of Ruspe
“See, in short you have it that the Father is one, the Son another, and the Holy Spirit another; in Person, each is other, but in nature they are not other. In this regard he says: ‘The Father and I, we are one’ (John 10:30). He teaches us that one refers to their nature, and we are to their Persons. In like manner it is said: ‘There are three who bear witness in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Spirit; and these three are one’ (1 John 5:7)” (The Trinity 4:1–2 [c. A.D. 515]).

“But in the one true God and Trinity it is naturally true not only that God is one but also that he is a Trinity, for the reason that the true God himself is a Trinity of Persons and one in nature. Through this natural unity the whole Father is in the Son and in the Holy Spirit, and the whole Holy Spirit, too, is in the Father and in the Son. None of these is outside any of the others; because no one of them precedes any other of them in eternity or exceeds any other in greatness, or is superior to any other in power” (The Rule of Faith 4 [c. A.D. 523).

Despite your ability to quote this, that and thee other, your posts seem to be totally devoid of life.

 

[RedFan]

If you go to Luke, Chapter 1, verses 6,8,9, 11 an 15 the implied definition is firmly established that 'Lord' is God the Father, and NOT Christ the Son.

Quite true. But Chapter 1, verse 43 has the opposite implication. Ditto for chapter 2, verse 11.

 

[APAK]

Quite true. But Chapter 1, verse 43 has the opposite implication. Ditto for chapter 2, verse 11.

Being a little intellectually dishonest are we here? If you reexamined what you wrote and again compared it with what you cited as my contribution there is definitely a difference between LORD, God and even Lord. You cannot be ignorant not to know the context and how the translators took liberties and translated Lord for both the Father God and his Son. In fact the ones I cited in Luke should all be LORD or God and some are already called God as you read it. And that is why some more modern day translations do not even use Lord for both God and his Son. They use 'lord' lower case for Jesus and not even Lord for all the confusion is causes. I'm sure you have come across this before. So why add to the confusion?

 

[RedFan]

Being a little intellectually dishonest are we here? If you reexamined what you wrote and again compared it with what you cited as my contribution there is definitely a difference between LORD, God and even Lord. You cannot be ignorant not to know the context and how the translators took liberties and translated Lord for both the Father God and his Son. In fact the ones I cited in Luke should all be LORD or God and some are already called God as you read it. And that is why some more modern day translations do not even use Lord for both God and his Son. They use 'lord' lower case for Jesus and not even Lord for all the confusion is causes. I'm sure you have come across this before. So why add to the confusion?

Are you seriously accusing me of intellectual dishonesty? I don't give a damn about what "some modern day translations" do or don't choose to render in upper case or lower case English. Luke didn't use upper case and lower case! Point out an ancient Greek Codex containing his gospel that uses both, and I'll kiss your ass and give you a week to draw a crowd. Otherwise, just concede that the word was sometimes used by Luke to refer to the Father and sometimes used by Luke to refer to Christ. That is all I said. Nothing more.

 

[APAK]

Are you seriously accusing me of intellectual dishonesty? I don't give a damn about what "some modern day translations" do or don't choose to render in upper case or lower case English. Luke didn't use upper case and lower case! Point out an ancient Greek Codex containing his gospel that uses both, and I'll kiss your ass and give you a week to draw a crowd. Otherwise, just concede that the word was sometimes used by Luke to refer to the Father and sometimes used by Luke to refer to Christ. That is all I said. Nothing more.

Ignorance is as ignorance does. And empty desperate words said are an indication you are being deceptive and have no real credentials on this subject. And you know it! So quit whilst you are ahead.

I would like to give you a bit of advice, tone down you language on this public forum. Emotions can run high when one is upset and a nerve is hit. I gather you are not a young man and you should know better.

 

[RedFan]

Ignorance is as ignorance does. And empty desperate words said are an indication you are being deceptive and have no real credentials on this subject. And you know it! So quit whilst you are ahead.

I would like to give you a bit of advice, tone down you language on this public forum. Emotions can run high when one is upset and a nerve is hit. I gather you are not a young man and you should know better.

Yes, I apologize to everyone here. I reacted to the accusation of intellectual dishonesty with more color than was called for. My skin is usually thicker.

 

[APAK]

Ignorance is as ignorance does. And empty desperate words said are an indication you are being deceptive and have no real credentials on this subject. And you know it! So quit whilst you are ahead.

I would like to give you a bit of advice, tone down you language on this public forum. Emotions can run high when one is upset and a nerve is hit. I gather you are not a young man and you should know better.

Yes, I apologize to everyone here. I reacted to the accusation of intellectual dishonesty with more color than was called for. My skin is usually thicker.

Of course apology from me is certainly accepted. I have come close to reacting the same as you. I beat myself up about it. No I used the term intellectual dishonesty as for what it is, nothing more and not meant to be personal. More of an academic term for me.

I still disagree with you though....and because Luke's use of capitals or not, and agree he did not as you said, is irrelevant to my argument.

I also look for the context and they say it's King and usually clears up a lot of discussion...

Great day RedFan... is that for the Cincinnati Reds?...

 

[RedFan]

Great day RedFan... is that for the Cincinnati Reds?...

No, Cornell. "Go Big Red!"

 

[APAK]

No, Cornell. "Go Big Red!"

Ok got it NY Athletics and sports teams of Ithaca..did you go to school there...