Tulip

[DPMartin]

I'm sorry I don't follow along with your reasoning.
You said above that A and E lived in a situation where they had to do what God told them or they die.

So in your opinion, God made A and E eat of the forbidden fruit so they could die?

What about the Garden of Gethsemane?
Are we made in the image of God? Was Jesus made in the image of a human being?
He said in the Garden, "not my will but your will be done".
Luke 22:42
This shows that Jesus had His own will, just as we do.
How would you explain that?

I didn't say this at all did I? " God made A and E eat of the forbidden fruit so they could die?" where di I say that God made them eat of the tree? God said don't eat of the tree or you will die, hence do what God's says or die.


you can't read text here let alone scripture it seems, read the bible if you don't know if you are made in God's image. God made man in God's image the day He made him. but if you would just read the bible instead of your own opinions you would know for a fact that:



Gen 5:1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him; 2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created. 3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:


its not an opinion it so happens to be what it says:

man was no longer in God's image and likeness so when you were born into the world you were born into the image of man, the fallen man the sinful man the man in sin separated from God's Presence. it is Jesus who restored the image and likeness of God in the Son of man. that can be received via being born of the Holy Spirit.

 

[bbyrd009]

I'm just a simple man. I like to learn but overall I'm not concerned about all the debating.
I just follow Jesus and leave the rest to him.
And I thank God for Breadman, he's fun and a chance to witness to someone

a great display of getting trampled at least, ya

 

[bbyrd009]

God said don't eat of the tree

yes and as any parent knows, a command like that will always be obeyed without question by their children right

 

[GodsGrace]

I see free will something like-
Mother has plans for the day...the kids can play in the garden , climb trees, argue, even fight, get muddy, have fun....but that wont ruins mothers plans for the day of the whole family.

No allegory is perfect...but that is a bit like I see God, us, and His Whole overall Plan.
We are free....But God controls the final outcome.

...H

This is exactly how it is.
We have free will and can choose between right and wrong, but in the end, God will prevail. HIS plan will be made complete by the end of time.

 

[APAK]

This is exactly how it is.
We have free will and can choose between right and wrong, but in the end, God will prevail. HIS plan will be made complete by the end of time.

GodsGrace:
Actually his plan 'was' already completed before we were born....He is not constrained by time..just a thought

Bless you,

APAK

 

[GodsGrace]

GodsGrace: I never suggested that any person's will was free to do anything it wants. We are either constrained as slaves to sin or doing the will of God. Does that sound like a 'free'-will. Look at post #24. What I was pointing out in this OP is that a Dutchman was for a very liberal free-will. I did not say I believed that way. Anyway, I started another thread called 'Can you choose God?" It should clear up my view of 'free' will

and with a few more posts downstream in it . I go ​

for a limited 'free'-will..
And your statement of our will capable of choosing between right and wrong it not technically correct either. Read the new OP I spoke of...

APAK

This is what you said in post no. 3:

I also believe we have a limited ‘free-will,’ in the sense we cannot or are not capable on knowing all things, do not have the ability to do all things, and are driven by both physical and invisible forces we do not understand.

Some believe that free will means having the ability to DO whatever we want to do ... like fly for instance. Some believe we don't have free will because there are outside forces controlling us. It seems to me that this is what you are saying above.

Another thread will not clear up YOUR view of free will. There is only ONE view in Christianity. Free will means the ability to choose right or wrong. If you think this is technically wrong, you could check it out.
It is NOT technically wrong.

Also, I'm on this thread now. Why leave it for another one of the same type?? Free will is a part of Calvin's theories. It should be discussed here but, of course, you're free to do as you will. See, you DO have free will.

 

[GodsGrace]

GodsGrace:
Actually his plan 'was' already completed before we were born....He is not constrained by time..just a thought

Bless you,

APAK

Sure, but which plan?
God's salvation economy was planned before time began. He knew we'd sin.

Or are you talking about His plan for me as to what I'll have for dinner tonight?

 

[GodsGrace]

I didn't say this at all did I? " God made A and E eat of the forbidden fruit so they could die?" where di I say that God made them eat of the tree? God said don't eat of the tree or you will die, hence do what God's says or die.


you can't read text here let alone scripture it seems, read the bible if you don't know if you are made in God's image. God made man in God's image the day He made him. but if you would just read the bible instead of your own opinions you would know for a fact that:



Gen 5:1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him; 2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created. 3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:


its not an opinion it so happens to be what it says:

man was no longer in God's image and likeness so when you were born into the world you were born into the image of man, the fallen man the sinful man the man in sin separated from God's Presence. it is Jesus who restored the image and likeness of God in the Son of man. that can be received via being born of the Holy Spirit.

I'll try to read the bible eventually...
Guess I must sound really dumb.

Anyway, I said I didn't understand what you were trying to say.
I agree with what you've written above.

So if God created man in His image, and God has free will, would you agree that we also have free will?
This is what I was getting at.

 

[APAK]

Sure, but which plan?
God's salvation economy was planned before time began. He knew we'd sin.

Or are you talking about His plan for me as to what I'll have for dinner tonight?

No not want you have for dinner..unless it would poison you and he would have none of that, if he wanted you to bring someone to Christ...

APAK

 

[GodsGrace]

No not want you have for dinner..unless it would poison you and he would have none of that, if he wanted you to bring someone to Christ...

APAK

I read you O.P. on choosing God and I STILL don't know what you believe.
The bible makes everything easy, man makes everything difficult.

You keep saying "in my opinion, or what I believe"...the bible clearly states we have free will. It can be an opinion that we don't, but it goes against scripture.

 

[bbyrd009]

GodsGrace:
Actually his plan 'was' already completed before we were born....He is not constrained by time..just a thought

Bless you,

APAK

how does this affect an individual's seeking at all?

 

[bbyrd009]

man was no longer in God's image and likeness

hmm, i read "they have become like Us, knowing good from evil."
exactly the opposite iow

 

[bbyrd009]

I read you O.P. on choosing God and I STILL don't know what you believe.
The bible makes everything easy, man makes everything difficult.

You keep saying "in my opinion, or what I believe"...the bible clearly states we have free will. It can be an opinion that we don't, but it goes against scripture.

gotta wonder why gaining the knowledge of good and evil would be termed "free will" anyway,
when knowing the difference (and choosing to act on it) leads to something closer to "bound will" imo

 

[Jun2u]

Am I to accept the Calvinistic or Arminian understanding of Total Depravity? Which one harmonises best with Scripture?

Neither! Scripture defines itself.

What makes your definition of the word “depravity” much more viable seeing you used two of the three Scripture passages I referenced?

To God Be The Glory

 

[GodsGrace]

gotta wonder why gaining the knowledge of good and evil would be termed "free will" anyway,
when knowing the difference (and choosing to act on it) leads to something closer to "bound will" imo

What is bound will?

 

[bbyrd009]

What is bound will?

ha, just another way to perceive free will i guess, another way to understand choices. Ppl are fond of saying "i have to do ______" or "i have to go ____" these days, right, but really they have a choice. You do not have to pay your mortgage, iow. Yes, you will lose your house, but that is not the point

 

[GodsGrace]

ha, just another way to perceive free will i guess, another way to understand choices. Ppl are fond of saying "i have to do ______" or "i have to go ____" these days, right, but really they have a choice. You do not have to pay your mortgage, iow. Yes, you will lose your house, but that is not the point

The only thing we have to do is pay taxes and die.
And you don't even have to pay taxes if you're willing to pay the consequences.

 

[OzSpen]

Neither! Scripture defines itself.

What makes your definition of the word “depravity” much more viable seeing you used two of the three Scripture passages I referenced?

To God Be The Glory

With respect, Scripture doesn't define itself. It takes interpretation, using the grammar, history, and cultural context, to define, explain and lead to an understanding of Scripture. How I wish it "defined itself". It would save me lots of time in preparation for studies.

What is my approach to interpretation of Scripture to be? "Work hard so you can present yourself to God and receive his approval. Be a good worker, one who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly explains the word of truth" (2 Tim 2:15 NLT).

So Scripture doesn't define itself. I will receive God's approval as a good worker/teacher who correctly explains the word of truth. My job description as a Bible teacher is to explain the word of truth to make it understandable to the people who hear what I teach. That's why, when I'm teaching Bible studies (as I do every Wed), I ask the people regularly, in the small group: "What is not clear from what I've said? Do we need some further explanations? What questions or comments do you have about this section of Scripture"?

The studies I lead are quite interactive.

Oz

 

[Jun2u]

@GodsGrace said:

T: If man is totally depraved, why is he capable of doing good?


Depends on what your concept of “good” is. Jesus said, “Why call me good?” There is none good but one, that is, God.

U: Could you imagine that God chose some to go to hell? Why even create man then?

You will NOT find such language in Scripture. Man go to hell because he is a sinner! The wages of sin is death and all have sinned, no exceptions.


L: Jesus died only for a select few. The bible teaches that God wants all men to be saved. Then, whether or not they choose to is up to them.

Matt 1:21 teaches that Jesus died for the sins of His people. God is a loving and gracious God and cares for His creation, that is He does not wish that any believer should perish. Consider: Matt 23:37.


I: If we could not say no to God, it means we're little robots. Love must be freely given. We have free will. This is because we're made in God's image and HIS will is free.

I would rather be a robot and be in heaven than have free will and go to hell. After man sinned, he lost all fellowship along with the image and likeness he had with God. Most of all, he lost his free will and can only choose for evil.


P: We must believe and trust in Jesus at the time of our death.

Man in and of himself cannot persevere unless he is indwelt by the Spirit of Jesus. It is Jesus who is the giver of life that lives and perseveres in the life of a believer.

To God Be The Glory

 

[Jun2u]

With respect, Scripture doesn't define itself. It takes interpretation, using the grammar, history, and cultural context, to define, explain and lead to an understanding of Scripture. How I wish it "defined itself". It would save me lots of time in preparation for studies.

What is my approach to interpretation of Scripture to be? "Work hard so you can present yourself to God and receive his approval. Be a good worker, one who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly explains the word of truth" (2 Tim 2:15 NLT).

So Scripture doesn't define itself. I will receive God's approval as a good worker/teacher who correctly explains the word of truth. My job description as a Bible teacher is to explain the word of truth to make it understandable to the people who hear what I teach. That's why, when I'm teaching Bible studies (as I do every Wed), I ask the people regularly, in the small group: "What is not clear from what I've said? Do we need some further explanations? What questions or comments do you have about this section of Scripture"?

The studies I lead are quite interactive.

Oz

I’ve heard this explanation before but it will not wash with the Bible. If I took your method of interpretation by utilizing grammar, history, and cultural context, to define, explain and lead to an understanding of Scripture, pretty soon I will not have a Bible. Why? Because according to your method of interpretation I am not a Jew, therefore, those epistles and books are not written for me. See how ridiculous this concept is?

Also, I was never in Rome so the Book of Romans does not pertain to me. I was never in the Church of Corinth so likewise, the Books of 1 and 2 Corinthians are not for me. I was never in the Church of Ephesus, therefore, the Book of Ephesians is also not for me, etc... Do you get my drift?

I never said the study of Scripture is easy in fact it takes long hours as you know. However, if we use God’s principles of comparing scripture with scripture and spiritual things with spiritual that God spoke in parables (earthly stories with heavenly/spiritual meaning), our task of interpretation will get easier with the help of the Holy Spirit to open our spiritual eyes.

For example, when John announced Jesus at the River Jordan, “Behold Jesus of Nazareth, the one who will take away the sins of the world.” No, he did not say it quite like that but I would have said that way. John uttered, “Behold the Lamb of God which taketh away the sins of the world.” We know Jesus is not an animal so we understand this to be an allegory or a parable. Sure enough, we search Scripture and learn that the Jews sacrificed lambs to atone for their sins. Immediately we sense that Jesus is the ultimate sacrifice to bear man’s sins which is an allegory or parabolic language. This is one of many examples how Scripture interprets itself!

You mentioned 2 Timothy 2:15 yet many Bible students, theologians, and pastors have no understanding of this Scripture whatsoever. I see this interpretation as a blind leader leading the blind. The key word I believe that is not understood here is the word “approval.” You are a Bible teacher so I will not expound on this word. I want you to search out Scripture. I’m sure with much prayer you will get the meaning God intended it to mean.

To God Be The Glory