Two particular problems with dispensationalism...

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charity

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Hi Chris, sorry it has taken me so long to get back to you, I have a bit of a busy week!
Can I ask what a "Acts 28" Dispensationalists is? I don't believe I've heard of that before?
Hi @Naomi25,

An Acts 28 dispensationalist is one who believes that this present dispensation began when the Jews of the dispersion, like the Jews of the land before them, finally rejected the Word of the ministry of the twelve and of Paul, concerning the person and work of the Lord Jesus Christ as their Messiah. Paul spoke the words of Isaiah 6 in verses 25-28, (quoted twice previously by the Lord Jesus Christ at times of crisis and rejection) and Israel went away into blindness and unbelief. A Loammi condition that exists until this very day. It was then that Paul received the revelation of God concerning this present dispensation (Ephesians 3:2-3), and was appointed the Stewardship of the mystery that had been 'hid in God' until this final rejection had come to pass (Ephesians.3:9; Colossians 1:26) . During this interval of time between the departure of Israel into blindness and it's return to repentance and restoration once more, the Church which is the Body of Christ is being called out. This is the message of the epistles written by Paul from prison, following the revelation of God, received by him as the Prisoner of the Lord. (Eph. Phil. Col. 1 & 2 Tim. Titus and Philemon).

I will leave this entry at this point, and address your further points in another.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
 

stunnedbygrace

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But as I understand it, Dispensationalists would then be in a bind of sorts. How could they take both passages 'literally'? To meet the 7 years...the x amount of days (sorry, can't be bothered looking them up now, but basically 2 lots of 3 and a half years), AND having that 'time cut short'...wouldn't that mean that one of those passages would be wrong? Unless cutting the time short WAS 7 years. In other words, it was supposed to be much longer and 7 years IS the short version!

I don't know if that's such a problem to me...God has said before that men were going to be wiped out and they repented at the message and He didn't do it. I think some who are left for more testing will repent and so...its not such a big scripture problem to me.
 

charity

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Hi Chris, sorry it has taken me so long to get back to you, I have a bit of a busy week!
Can I ask what a "Acts 28" Dispensationalists is? I don't believe I've heard of that before?

I agree that 'you and I' were not in mind while the apostles were writing their letters and books, however, I'm not exactly sure I agree that Israel was the target of them either. We know that the apostles most certainly attempted, even Paul - apostle to the Gentiles - to take the gospel to Israel, but it is clear that the epistles and other books that were written were addressed to those who already believed...in other words...the Church.
I agree that certain wrath and judgement did come down upon Israel in 70 AD, but again, I feel the need to stress that many of the verses I see talking about 'wrath' in context of the subject at hand, seem to me to be speaking salvation or judgement that comes at Christ's return, rather than what happened to the Jews in 70AD.
Hello again, @Noami,

I agree that the judgment that comes at Christ's return is what is in view. AD70 had the 'potential' to be part of that judgment had Israel repented, which would have resulted in Christ returning as Peter declared in Acts 3:19-20.

Naomi25:-
Actually, he doesn't refer to them as 'firstfruits' in 1 Thess 4, but in 2 Thess 2:13. And the very clear reference in doing so is to them being "saved by sanctification through the Spirit and belief in the truth".
I think we must conclude that, here, being 'firstfruits' means being among the first to be saved by grace under the new covenant, rather than being 'caught up to Christ'. We see in 1 Cor 15 that Christ was the 'firstfruits' to be raised from the dead and receive a new resurrection body, and in that regard, when we are 'caught up' to receive our new bodies, we are, in fact, secondfruits...if such a word exists.
* James, who addressed his epistle to the twelve tribes who were scattered abroad (in the dispersion) (1:1), said in 1:18,
'Of His Own will begat He us with the word of truth,
that we should be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures.'
* Paul had written about the firstfruits in Romans 8:23, and the desire for the 'adoption' or 'the redemption of the body', which is that anticipated by Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. Which would have occurred at the end of the Acts period had Israel repented. 1 Corinthians 15:20 & 23, as you say, portrays the Lord Jesus Christ Himself as the 'firstfruits of them that slept', with those who were then, 'asleep in Christ', to be raised likewise, 'at His coming', as described in 1 Thess. 4:13-18.

* 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18: though anticipated eagerly by the believers during the Acts period, did not come to pass because of the failure of Israel to repent. It now awaits a yet future day.

* However, the Church which is the One Body of Ephesians, Philippians and Colossians, will not have part in this event. They are not the firstfruits. For they are the subject of a revelation yet to be made known to Paul, following Israel's descent into blindness and unbelief. The knowledge of their calling being still 'hid in God' at the time that the event recorded by Paul in 1 Thessalonians was written; they await yet another upward call. Their hope, though maybe taking a similar form, will be to 'appear with Him' at His 'appearing' in glory. (Colossians 3:4; Titus 2:13; Philippians 3:10-11). Which will happen, I believe, immediatley prior to that of 1 Thess. 4:13-18; because until the church of the One Body are called out at the close of, 'the times of the gentiles', the timeclock of Israel's prophetic fulfilment can't begin, and therefore the events associated with it as recorded in 1 Thess 4, must follow that.

Again, I will have to respond to your further points in another entry.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
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Naomi25

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Here is a harmonized sequence of end time prophesied events, supported by many scriptures:

Soon to happen: The great and terrible Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath, a CME sunstrike. Isaiah 30:26-28 & 30, Malachi 4:1 & 3 It will be the Sixth seal event of cosmic and worldwide effects and the Middle East will be virtually depopulated, cleared and cleansed, Ezekiel 30:1-5, Zephaniah 1:14-18 It will be the fulfilment of Psalms 83, Isaiah 2:12-21, 2 Peter 3:7 and Revelation 6:12-17 A small Messianic Jewish remnant will survive in Jerusalem. Isaiah 6:11-13 Many will die around the world: Isaiah 51:6, Jeremiah 9:22, but most will survive and eventually re-establish the infrastructure.

The Seventh seal is ‘about’ a 20 year time gap until the Return of Jesus.

In a short while: Isaiah 29:17, all the holy Land will be regenerated and the Lord’s people, Christian Israelites, be they true descendants of Jacob or grafted in, all born again believers; will gather in the new country of Beulah. Isaiah 62:1-5, Isaiah 35:1-10, Ezekiel 34:11-16 They will live in peace and prosperity and 144,000 missionaries are selected from them, to go out to all peoples and proclaim the coming Kingdom of Jesus. Revelation 7 & 14, Isaiah 66:19

The rest of the nations will form a One World Government, led by ten Presidents. Daniel 7:24, Revelation 17:12 Before long, three will be taken over and the other seven will confer their power onto another strong leader. Daniel 11:21, Revelation 13:1-8

After a few years: a Northern confederation, led by a person referred to as Gog, will be motivated to attack Beulah – an unprotected nation, of great wealth. Gog and his horde will be totally wiped out and it will take seven years to bury them and clean the land. Ezekiel 38 & 39, Joel 2:20

Sometime later, the strong leader of the World Government, will make a seven year treaty with Beulah. This marks the commencement of the seventieth ‘week’ [seven years] of Daniel. There is a 3½ year period of calm and peace in the world. Daniel 9:27

After that: the world dictator comes to Jerusalem in force, Zechariah 14:1-2, and declares himself to be god in the new Temple. This starts the Great Tribulation, the Trumpet and Bowl judgements. The ‘Woman’- Christian Israelites who refused to violate the Covenant, Daniel 11:32, are taken to a place of safety for 1260 days. Zechariah 14:2b, Revelation 12:14

Then comes the Glorious Return of Jesus: The battle of Armageddon, Jesus destroys the army of the Anti-Christ by the Sword of His Word and chains up Satan.

The regathering of Christian Israel, all those who have kept faithful. Matthew 24:30-31

The 1000 year Millennium reign of King Jesus and the resurrected martyrs. Revelation 20:4



The final attack against the holy Land and the armies are instantly cremated. Satan is cast into the lake of fire. Revelation 16:13-16, Revelation 19:17-21

The Great White Throne judgement, and a New Heaven and a New Earth. Daniel 7:9-10, Revelation chapter 21

Forgive me, but, apart from a few differences, that still sounds very much like a Dispensational layout of things. You're very welcome to hold to it, mind you, I just cannot see that it is a 'harmonized' sequence.

It's interesting (probably only to me in this particular case!) that you mentioned the CME. One of my favourite movies is Knowing, with Nicolas Cage in it. Poor guy, he's a bit of a 'has been' now. But...I just love how there's so many 'Christian' motif's throughout the movie. Prophecy (of sorts), end of the world by fire, angelic 'beings', the kids being saved by being 'lifted up', the 'tree of life' image in the new world.
I don't know...it just spoke to me, and yes, I do wonder if the image of 'the heavens will burn' that we see in scripture will come via something like a CME. Of course, God could just cause it out of nowhere. But he could use a natural phenomena.
 

Naomi25

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Hi Naomi,

Just noticing this thread, but I wanted to toss in, I'm "pre-trib", not exactly the regulary way, but to your point in Thessalonians, "saves us from the wrath to come", personally, I think this better fits with the wrath of final judgment. Death very neatly saved Paul from the wrath of God upon the world. But Jesus will save all who believe from the final wrath. I don't feel this verse teaches regarding pre-trib rapture, but I believe others do, in so much as any can, without making a straightfoward statement.

While I'm dispensationalist, so-called, in my views, I don't like to bend all the verses many dispensationalists seem to imo.

I think some people do dispensational teachings a huge disservice by trying too hard to force fit Scriptures into their framework.

Much love!
Mark
Hey Mark, thanks for the reply!
Just wondering if I can ask....if you see this passage in particular as teaching 'wrath of final judgement' (as I do), how do you then read a 7 year period into the end? I mean...when reading the passages that discuss Christ's return, do you rather naturally see some other way/reason for there being a gap between the first and second 2nd coming that isn't specifically stated?
Thanks!
 

charity

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... Paul started with the Jews wherever he went, even though he was apostle to the Gentiles. However, I think you may be missing a rather large element here....we do not say "Paul ministered to the Jews and those that believed him became 'believing Jews'"....no...from the very beginning, from Pentecost, whosoever believed, BECAME the Church...Jew or Gentile. So...when he did preach to the Jews, and if they DID believe...they became the Church there. And every Gentile who believed was added to them. Remember, there is neither Jew nor Greek in Christ? Paul's own teaching...
Hello again, @Naomi25,

Yes, Paul went to the Synagogue in every place he visited, because Israel was itself 'first' in priority in the purpose of God, for it was His purpose that Israel should carry out their divinely appointed priestly duty and minister to the nations. The only reason that the door to the Kingdom was opened to the gentiles, was to make Israel Jealous and seek to emulate them (Romans 11:14). they were grafted into the Olive Tree of Israel. They received of the blessings of Abraham along with Israel. Pentecost was not the beginning of something, it was the end, the prophecy of Joel, which manifested itself at that time, according to the words of Peter in his addresses in Acts 2 and 3, were evidence of this. The Kingdom of God was near, Christ was standing, ready to return the moment Israel repented (see Acts 3:19-20) - He had not yet sat down.

* The unity, and equality between Jew and Gentile did not come fully into force until the revelation of God concerning the Church of the One Body, the fulness of Him that filleth all in all, made known in Ephesians, Philippians and Colossians, 1 & 2 Tim. Titus and Philemon, was made known to Paul, following the rejection of Israel both in the land and in the dispersion, at Acts 28, having been hid in God until that moment (Eph. 3:9; Colossians 1:26).

*Until then Israel was foremost, and the Gentile believer drew their sustenance through the Olive Tree of Israel. Not until the final rejection by Israel of their Messiah and King, did that One equal united joint body of believing individual Jew and gentile exist without dependence upon Israel's blessings through Abraham. Those new covenant blessings, and Israel as a nation have been laid aside temporarily and are in abeyance. The Church of the One Body, of which Christ is the Head, is now in existence, and is not part of the New covenant, and is independent of Israel as a nation.

Naomi25:-
I think trying to determine who, amongst the Church, were Jew and who were Greek, and therefore who could be technically classified as 'firstfruits' and therefore be 'caught up' is 'barking up the wrong tree', theologically. There is nothing in scripture that really gives us leave to pursue that line of thinking. Nor the one that says God went "fiddlesticks...the Jews just aren't falling into line...what now? Plan B...the Gentiles!" No...from the beginning it was God's plan to "bless ALL nations" through Abraham and 'his seed'. It was always God's plan to bring blessing to us Gentiles THROUGH the Jews, and then use us to provoke the Jews to jealousy, therefore saving "all Israel". No wonder Paul, after disclosing this, breaks into praise!
* The knowledge that had been 'hid in God' concerning the One Body, the One New Man, was therefore not the subject of old testament prophecy, therefore unsearchable (Ephesians 3:8) - 'The unsearchable riches of Christ' , that Paul alone could preach, for He alone had been given the revelation concerning it.

* Israel will be instrumental in the fulfilment of the blessing of the nations, when the new covenant is finally in force, and they take up their divinely appointed role as priests unto God, at their repentance and restoration. The potential was there during the Acts period, but it was not possible of fulfillment because of Israel's rejection of their Messiah.

* I have a visitor now, so have to go, but will come back and address your further points asap.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
 

Naomi25

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Most folks, dispensational or not, get the 7 year period primarily from Daniel 9:27. The trigger being the covenant that is affirmed by the antichrist with Israel. The antichrist being the rider on the white horse of Revelation 6:2. And it closely ties into Isaiah 28:14-15 which is directly linked to Revelation 6:7-8. And Daniel 9:27 and Isaiah 28:18 both show that the covenant will be broken. And it will occur in the middle of the 70th week which is the actual start of the Great Tribulation / Time of Jacob's Trouble.

What I think messes some folks up is the idea that the pre-trib is the trigger of the 7 years / 70th week of Daniel. Not so. The removal of the righteous triggers nothing. But by the redeemed being taken out, then the ball gets rolling since he primary job of the Holy Spirit is to indwell, seal, and preserve the believers is now over. He can then step aside and allow "all hell to break loose" as it were. What triggers the start of that period is the covenant being affirmed by the antichrist / false messiah / man of lawlessness who could not have been revealed until the Holy Spirit stepped aside. As per 2 Thessalonians 2.

It really isn't as complicated as some make it out to be.

Well...this could be a bit of the problem. See....I totally don't think Daniel is talking about 7 years 'at the end of time'. I think they miss the symbolic nature of the numbers involved. I think they liberally add a gap that is NOT literally there.
Puts a bit of a different shine on it, really, doesn't it?!
 
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Copperhead

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I have always said that the GT was for the ungodly, those who do take the mark of the beast.
There is your poorly phrased comment about drugs.

This is also an unacceptable comment. Who are you to judge me?
Actually, I never claim to be a prophet at all; I am just a messenger, as my name means.

The content of your posts is to discredit me personally, rather than making your case with scripture. This shows that you have no proofs for your beliefs.

Ah yeah, and how again was that negative comment about government as understanding a reason why some use drugs is abusive to the brethren? No, it wasn't poorly phrased. It was exactly how I meant it. If the Lord appears as disorganized as Government, I think I understand now why some use drugs. I will add this to bolster it, if all I had to look forward to with Yahweh was the same thing that I experience in dealing with the the ineffectual redundancy of government, then it hardly seems worth the effort.

And that redundant ineffectual aspect of government is what you are implying by stating the redeemed have to go thru the GWT judgment. Especially since Paul stated the redeemed deal with the bema / rewards judgment, not the krino / prosecutorial judgment of the GWT. First they are redeemed enough to rule along side Yeshua with a rod of iron in the Messianic Kingdom, but they need to be reevaluated at the end of that reign at the GWT judgment just in case Messiah made a boo boo and misclassified them as redeemed. That would would make Yeshua appear as ineffectual as government since Yeshua said that any who trust in Him has eternal life and shall not come into krisis / prosecutorial judgment in John 5:24. What a depressing negative thought about things. Again, that thought helps me to understand why some use drugs. Hopelessness of something better than they experience now. But I think that the Lord is so much better than that, thus I have a higher view of Him.

I didn't judge you, I anticipated you. Big difference. I didn't judge the opposition soldiers when I was in the military, but I did anticipate what they would do. You just reinforced how I anticipated you would react. I did in no way judge you regarding any position with the Lord. But your response here does support yet again what I stated.

And no, you didn't say you were a prophet, but your response then, you were using what happened to the prophets of old as a comparison statement. If you didn't mean for it to appear as a comparison of yourself to the prophets then you should have chosen a different comparison. But since you did use that, the impression is that you are placing yourself in the same league as them, thus I stated what I did.
 

marks

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how do you then read a 7 year period into the end? I mean...when reading the passages that discuss Christ's return, do you rather naturally see some other way/reason for there being a gap between the first and second 2nd coming that isn't specifically stated?

Hi Naomi,

Happy to answer any question you wish! But I'm not sure I understand exactly what you are asking for here.

I see the first coming in His birth as servant, and His second coming as King. But do you mean 7 years betweeen the church being gathered, and Jesus standing on the mount of olives?

Much love!
 

Naomi25

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Not necessarily. Christ said that the Great Tribulation would be shortened for the sake of the elect (Mt 24:22). So the Bible presents the total time period of seven years as a shortened period of six years and approximately 5 months (2300 days) (Dan 8:14).
How does this 'shortened' period of just under 7 years then fit in with the other passages that Dispensationalists then point to to teach a 7 year Tribulation? Dan 7:25, Dan 12:7, Rev 12:6, 14? How can these numbers be 'literally' accurate, but also the 'shortened' time of Dan 8:14?
 

Copperhead

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I think they liberally add a gap that is NOT literally there.
Puts a bit of a different shine on it, really, doesn't it?!

Well the precedence for a gap was given by Yeshua when He stood up in the synagogue and read Isaiah 61:1-2. He stopped just before "And the day of vengeance of our God" in verse 2. That part would come at least 2000 years later.

The 70 weeks given to Daniel, the 69 were literal weeks of years from the decree to rebuild the city right on up thru the death of Yeshua. Many have worked out the math and conclude that the 69 weeks ended at that time.

Now, if the weeks of years had up to that point been literal in their fulfillment, there is no justification to seeing the 70th week any different. And if there was no gap, then all should have ended in 39AD and we wouldn't be discussing this. It is clear just that we are discussing it that there is a gap implied. And again, since there is no justification for looking at the 70th week other that a literal week of years, 7 years, it must be a literal 7 year period yet future.

The key to all of it is who it was meant for. Gabriel was quite clear that all the weeks, including the final 70th week of years is regarding Daniel's people and the city. What goes on the rest of the planet is not the focus. And in Daniel's prayer to the Father just before Gabriel showed up, Daniel clearly lumped all the tribes into one basket. Just like 2 Chronicles shows us before the exile, as does Ezra and Nehemiah after Daniel and the exile. Daniel's people, even of the final 70th week, are all the Hebrew people and the focus is on them in the city, Jerusalem. Either that, or Daniel and Gabriel had no clue what they were talking about.
 

Naomi25

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Hi @Naomi25,

An Acts 28 dispensationalist is one who believes that this present dispensation began when the Jews of the dispersion, like the Jews of the land before them, finally rejected the Word of the ministry of the twelve and of Paul, concerning the person and work of the Lord Jesus Christ as their Messiah. Paul spoke the words of Isaiah 6 in verses 25-28, (quoted twice previously by the Lord Jesus Christ at times of crisis and rejection) and Israel went away into blindness and unbelief. A Loammi condition that exists until this very day. It was then that Paul received the revelation of God concerning this present dispensation (Ephesians 3:2-3), and was appointed the Stewardship of the mystery that had been 'hid in God' until this final rejection had come to pass (Ephesians.3:9; Colossians 1:26) . During this interval of time between the departure of Israel into blindness and it's return to repentance and restoration once more, the Church which is the Body of Christ is being called out. This is the message of the epistles written by Paul from prison, following the revelation of God, received by him as the Prisoner of the Lord. (Eph. Phil. Col. 1 & 2 Tim. Titus and Philemon).

I will leave this entry at this point, and address your further points in another.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
So...just trying to get this all sorted in my head...the real difference between what you believe and other Dispensationalists, is that they would say Israel's rejection and the 'time of the Church' began at Pentecost (or around then) and you place it at Acts 28 when Paul essentially washed his hands of them?
 

Naomi25

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I don't know if that's such a problem to me...God has said before that men were going to be wiped out and they repented at the message and He didn't do it. I think some who are left for more testing will repent and so...its not such a big scripture problem to me.
Well, it's not a problem for me either, but I should think it might be for Dispensationalists! If they lay claim to a literalist hermeneutic, and one that says that all prophecy is "history written in advance", and teach a very specific end time event and period, but then have different verses pointing to different time periods and suggesting perhaps there could be a little of "well, God might relent or change" tucked in there too, then...I should think that might be a problem for them, because it seems to me that they've just back-pedaled from their own rules of interpretation.
 
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brakelite

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How does this 'shortened' period of just under 7 years then fit in with the other passages that Dispensationalists then point to to teach a 7 year Tribulation? Dan 7:25, Dan 12:7, Rev 12:6, 14? How can these numbers be 'literally' accurate, but also the 'shortened' time of Dan 8:14?
Because it is born of desperation to give meaning to the 2300 days. Others claim it as a part, or the whole, of Antiochus reign...both a fail.
 

stunnedbygrace

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Well, it's not a problem for me either, but I should think it might be for Dispensationalists! If they lay claim to a literalist hermeneutic, and one that says that all prophecy is "history written in advance", and teach a very specific end time event and period, but then have different verses pointing to different time periods and suggesting perhaps there could be a little of "well, God might relent or change" tucked in there too, then...I should think that might be a problem for them, because it seems to me that they've just back-pedaled from their own rules of interpretation.

I'm not really aware of their rules of interpretation. I'm sure they do have some real fractures - I've seen some of them in the verses they sometimes insist are about our gathering together.
And I've seen fractures in other views too - mid, post, a mill.
I do believe prophecy...is history in advance, as you phrased it...but I don't know why that should translate as a problem to me if I believe this, believe in our gathering together, and believe that repentance has and can cause God to change His mind despite what He's told a prophet to say.

I guess I'm still not understanding why you think it has to be a problem for me. I don't know, maybe if I don't completely agree with all other dispensationalists on all points at all times, then I can't be called a dispensationalist...but then, according to that rigidness , neither could I be called a christian because I don't agree with all of them always...or a woman (don't agree with them always.) In fact, most labels we slap on someone aren't a good thing, because we then try to force people into very narrow and rigid confines, taking away any uniqueness of thought, talent or preference they might have. All black men don't like fried chicken and chittlins, all women are not bad drivers and I've met some white men who can dance very well!
 
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Jon Mathews

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To get the right Eschatology, you have to rightly divide "Tribulation". There is tribulation from Satan and evil men/spirits, and Tribulation from God. When we're talking about the Seals, Trumpets, and Bowls of God's Wrath in Revelation, we're talking about Tribulation from God. Persecution is tribulation from evil spirits and evil men. Saints will always suffer tribulation from evil spirits/evil men, but they will never suffer the Wrath (Tribulation) of God. Jesus Christ has already drank the full cup of God's Wrath for those who believe. That is why if you read Revelation 7:3 you'll see that God's Plagues will not touch those who have been sealed by God. Even the saints who go thru God's great Tribulation will not be harmed by the plagues. They will suffer tribulation of men, but not the Tribulation of God.
 
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Davy

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But as I understand it, Dispensationalists would then be in a bind of sorts. How could they take both passages 'literally'? To meet the 7 years...the x amount of days (sorry, can't be bothered looking them up now, but basically 2 lots of 3 and a half years), AND having that 'time cut short'...wouldn't that mean that one of those passages would be wrong? Unless cutting the time short WAS 7 years. In other words, it was supposed to be much longer and 7 years IS the short version!

The actual time of "great tribulation" Jesus taught begins with the placing of the "abomination of desolation" (see Matthew 24:15-21).

That means the latter half of the Daniel 9:27 "one week", which are the events of the "vile person" in Daniel 11:31.

Jesus did shorten that time, and He told us in Revelation what He shortened it to. Furthermore, it's all linked to agricultural timing also, as His coming is linked with a time of crop harvest.
 
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Naomi25

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Hello again, @Noami,

I agree that the judgment that comes at Christ's return is what is in view. AD70 had the 'potential' to be part of that judgment had Israel repented, which would have resulted in Christ returning as Peter declared in Acts 3:19-20.


* James, who addressed his epistle to the twelve tribes who were scattered abroad (in the dispersion) (1:1), said in 1:18,
'Of His Own will begat He us with the word of truth,
that we should be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures.'
* Paul had written about the firstfruits in Romans 8:23, and the desire for the 'adoption' or 'the redemption of the body', which is that anticipated by Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. Which would have occurred at the end of the Acts period had Israel repented. 1 Corinthians 15:20 & 23, as you say, portrays the Lord Jesus Christ Himself as the 'firstfruits of them that slept', with those who were then, 'asleep in Christ', to be raised likewise, 'at His coming', as described in 1 Thess. 4:13-18.

* 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18: though anticipated eagerly by the believers during the Acts period, did not come to pass because of the failure of Israel to repent. It now awaits a yet future day.

Are you saying that they expected it to be during that period? Because I'm not sure we can see that in scripture. Even in the gospels we see a reacurring theme of 'no one knows the day' and of 'delay'. I don't think we can hang too much on the idea that the people living in the "Acts" days believed (any more or less then every other generation since) that Christ's return would be then. As in...HAD to be, rather than, it COULD be, if you see the distinction.

Could Christ's return have happened then? I suppose so, theoretically. Just as we may pose the idea that if Adam and Eve had not sinned in the garden initially, they would have moved past 'probation' and into Eternity.
No...God's plan, stubborn, sinful people included...is what it is, and his will shall be done, and be played out as scripture predicts. Which...doesn't give us a lot of info on what (or perhaps when) it is coming! His timing is his alone to know...always has been.

* However, the Church which is the One Body of Ephesians, Philippians and Colossians, will not have part in this event. They are not the firstfruits. For they are the subject of a revelation yet to be made known to Paul, following Israel's descent into blindness and unbelief. The knowledge of their calling being still 'hid in God' at the time that the event recorded by Paul in 1 Thessalonians was written; they await yet another upward call. Their hope, though maybe taking a similar form, will be to 'appear with Him' at His 'appearing' in glory. (Colossians 3:4; Titus 2:13; Philippians 3:10-11). Which will happen, I believe, immediatley prior to that of 1 Thess. 4:13-18; because until the church of the One Body are called out at the close of, 'the times of the gentiles', the timeclock of Israel's prophetic fulfilment can't begin, and therefore the events associated with it as recorded in 1 Thess 4, must follow that.

Again, I will have to respond to your further points in another entry.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

See, here...here I'd have to disagree with you. In 2 Thess 2, and also Romans 8, Paul is clearly speaking to the Church, which would have been made up of Jews and Gentiles alike; one body...and telling them that they, having received the Holy Spirit, were a kind of firstfruits. There is no distinction between Jew or Gentile in regards to 'firstfruit' nature, and therefore linking them to any future event.
 

Enoch111

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Jesus Christ has already drank the full cup of God's Wrath for those who believe.
And this is exactly what the mid-Tribulationists and post-Tribulations totally forget. Those periods (Tribulation and Great Tribulation) are for the unbelieving, the ungodly, the plain wicked, and the enemies of God and Christ. And it is the Abomination of Desolation which triggers the Great Tribulation.
 

charity

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Are you saying that they expected it to be during that period? Because I'm not sure we can see that in scripture. Even in the gospels we see a reacurring theme of 'no one knows the day' and of 'delay'. I don't think we can hang too much on the idea that the people living in the "Acts" days believed (any more or less then every other generation since) that Christ's return would be then. As in...HAD to be, rather than, it COULD be, if you see the distinction.
Hello @Naomi25,

Reading the epistles written during that period, time and again the expectation is expressed for the imminent return of Christ. For Peter had told them in Acts 3, that if Israel repented Christ would return. I see what you mean when you say, 'Had to be, rather than, it could be', but I believe it was an expectation at that time, not necessarily that it be either, 'had to be' or 'could be', but 'surely it would be'. The apostles worked to instruct and persuade their countrymen for forty years, and the gentiles were grafted in for the purpose of making them emulate them. Opportunity had to be given to Israel, and no alternative course of action could be introduced while that opportunity was open. For they had a role to fulfil which would be a blessing to all the nations had they done so. However, they did not. God, in His foreknowledge knew they would not, and He had provisioned for that eventuality, but that knowledge was hidden in Him, yet to be revealed.

For 40 days after His resurrection Christ met with the disciples and taught them, and the question asked by them immediately after, and just prior to his ascension, shows what that teaching had been about, for they said to Him in Acts 1:6, ' ... Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?' This was the time of restoration promised upon Israel's repentance by Peter in Acts 3.

Naomi25:-
Could Christ's return have happened then? I suppose so, theoretically. Just as we may pose the idea that if Adam and Eve had not sinned in the garden initially, they would have moved past 'probation' and into Eternity.
No...God's plan, stubborn, sinful people included...is what it is, and his will shall be done, and be played out as scripture predicts. Which...doesn't give us a lot of info on what (or perhaps when) it is coming! His timing is his alone to know...always has been.

* Yes, for the answer given to those disciples in Acts 1:7, was, '... It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in His own power.'
Naomi25:-
See, here...here I'd have to disagree with you. In 2 Thess 2, and also Romans 8, Paul is clearly speaking to the Church, which would have been made up of Jews and Gentiles alike; one body...and telling them that they, having received the Holy Spirit, were a kind of firstfruits. There is no distinction between Jew or Gentile in regards to 'firstfruit' nature, and therefore linking them to any future event.
* Naomi, I thank God for the way that you meet alongside me and reason with me, it is so refreshing. :)

* During the Acts period the believing remnant of Israel had been called out, and gentiles had been grafted in to the Olive Tree of Israel, in the hope that Israel would be made jealous and seek to emulate them (Romans 11:11), Yes? However, that was the only reason for gentiles to be allowed into the kingdom at that time: Israel had a prior position then, they and gentiles grafted in were not on an equal footing, even though united in Christ. The blessings of Abraham came to the gentile through association with Israel. That believing remnant was the 'firstfruit', with the promise that all Israel would be saved at a later time (Romans 11:26).

* It was to this company that the hope of 1 Thessalonians 4, was given of what is now called 'the rapture', because of the expectation of the coming of Christ, and the possibility that there would be those who would be, 'alive and remain' at His coming.

* Naomi25, please do not entirely dismiss this, keep it at the back of your mind as an open question, yes? For God to dismiss or verify in His time and in His way.

* I wish you and I were sat at a table with our Bibles open in front of us, so that we could study the Scriptures together, and discuss our various differences of understanding in the light of God's Word, it would be so interesting, with great opportunity.

Thank you.
In Christ Jesus
Our risen and glorified
Saviour, Lord and Head.
Chris
 
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