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The first one: Teachers for the Rapture always say that God will take us out of the world before pouring out his wrath on it. They cite passages such as: 1 Thess 1:10, 1 Thess 5:9, Luke 21:36. All about escaping the coming wrath. My question is this: I can find nowhere that states that this 'wrath' must be judgement poured out in the Tribulation. In fact, in context, it seems much more likely that what is being talked about is both wrath and judgement of ultimate finality. In some passages it talks of them being under wrath but us having ultimate salvation, for example:
For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ - 1 Thessalonians 5:9
Those who teach that we are raptured before the trib are on the pre-trib rapture doctrine that began in 1830's Great Britain by the Edward Irving church and John Darby's association with that church. That is where Dispensationalism started. For over 1,800 years, that doctrine was never preached in any Christian Church. I mention this as a basis for answering since you mentioned Dispensationalism.
In 1 Thess.5, Paul was pulling from the OT prophets about the "day of the Lord" event which is to occur on the final day of this present world. Paul contrasted us, the Church, against the deceived who will be saying, "Peace and safety" when the "sudden destruction" comes upon them. In 2 Peter 3:10, Peter showed God's consuming fire burning man's works off this earth is what will occur on that "day of the Lord" that will come "as a thief in the night", and that is the "sudden destruction" Paul was speaking of.
So the "sudden destruction" is timed with the "day of the Lord", which happens on the final day of this world. And it comes "as a thief in the night" (1 Thess.5).
In Rev.16:15, our Lord Jesus is still warning His Church on the 6th Vial. He said He comes "as a thief". And the next event there is the gathering of the armies to do battle at Armageddon on the 7th Vial.
By that He linked His coming with what Paul and Peter taught about the "day of the Lord" coming "as a thief in the night". Thus our Lord Jesus revealed just by that, that His 2nd coming and our gathering is on that "day of the Lord" when He comes "as a thief". His coming "as a thief" will be upon the wicked and deceived who least expect Him. His coming is not to take us by surprise.
But in the earlier parts of Revelation 16, we are shown vials of wrath being poured out already, prior to the final 7th Vial. That is one of the places where pre-trib pastors try to apply Paul's 'we are not appointed to wrath' and then say well, we must be gone by then. Yet Paul was teaching about the final day of this world in 1 Thess.5, the "day of the Lord" final day, and thus the final... wrath on that last day, i.e., God's cup of wrath being poured out on the 7th trumpet and 7th vial.
What about those previous Vials of Rev.16 then? Per Rev.11, God's two witnesses are to appear in Jerusalem and prophesy against the beast for 1260 days (pointng the trib timing). Their ministry will be similar to Moses and Aaron in Egypt with the plagues. There's the previous events of wrath poured out upon the wicked, during the coming tribulation. This is why it says there in Rev.11 that when the two witnesses are killed, the nations that were tormented by them will then send gifts to each other (i.e., party it up because the two witnesses are dead).
And: Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him. - John 3:36
Then if we look at some others in context:
What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction - Romans 9:22.......and we know that "destruction" means eternal punishment, not the Tribulation trials because....They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed. - 2 Thessalonians 1:9–10
Here is how the actual John 3:36 Scripture is written. The ASV, NAS, RSV, NASB, are all in error on that passage having 'do not obey the Son'. Greek
apeitheo is in the NT manuscripts (Majority Texts) of that passage, which means 'believes not'.
John 3:36
36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
KJV
The Romans 9 passage is about the vessels prepared for today's wrath by God, not eternal wrath. For example, Paul speaks specifically about pharaoh there in one case. Pharaoh and his army who chased after Moses perished in the Red Sea after Moses and the children of Israel had passed through it. There's even been relics of their chariots found in our time in the Red Sea to prove it happened. So Pharaoh's flesh perished, but not his soul. No soul born through woman's womb has been judged and sentenced to perish in the future "lake of fire" just yet, not even Judas. Only Satan and his angels have already been judged and sentenced to perdition.
The 2 Thessalonians 1 passage is like a summary of events. Although Rev.20 mentions Jesus will reign for a thousand years with His elect over the nations, that wasn't included there. So Paul was merely pointing to those who eventually go into the "lake of fire" because of disbelief.
Again:
But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed. - Romans 2:5
With that Rom.2 passage, you have to keep to the flow from verse 1. Paul is pointing to those who are high-and-mighty, haughty, who think themselves as judge of others (regarding salvation). "What? You go around judging others and you do the same unrighteous acts they do?" That's kind of what Paul is saying. We are not to judge who is or isn't going to hell. Remember Apostle Paul before our Lord Jesus struck him down on the road to Damascus (Acts 9). Paul was following the unbelieving Jews, persecuting Christ's Church before his conversion. Do you think some of the Christians Paul persecuted then thought he was doomed to go to hell? Likely, but still not ours to judge that, that power belongs only to our Lord Jesus Whom The Father made Judge of all things in final.
