Two sets of a thousand years.

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Marty fox

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This supports a reign on the Earth since he has left heaven and is given "authority, glory and sovereign power" and the Earthly nations worship him. That's Premill.

What else is Premill there:

Dan 7:17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.

These kings come from out of the Earth.

Dan 7:18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

That is an Earthly kingdom being taken and possessed forever. And there is more of this:


Dan 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
Dan 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Dan 7:26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.

So the dominion of this Earthly kingdom shall be taken away from it's leader...and then what happens?

Dan 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.


Again, the Earthly kingdom with it's former dominion will be given to the saints and it will be an everlasting kingdom. The place of this kingdom did not change, the Earth. This whole chapter is pure Premill with the saints reigning the Earth in a kingdom that will never end. The dominion of the REvelation 13 beast will be taken by the saints and they will exercise it's Earthly dominion as Daniel states. Amill is "A-real". Only Premill is biblical.

Comon be honest with yourself here it says that Jesus is approaching heaven not the earth. You said that the bible doesn't show Jesus reigning in heaven and I proved that it does.

That still doesn't have anything to do with the topic of Revelation chapter 20 not stating Jesus on the earth
 

ewq1938

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Comon be honest with yourself here it says that Jesus is approaching heaven not the earth.

Wrong. This is equivalent to the second coming, which is FROM heaven to the Earth not to heaven. You nee to be honest here because this is CLEARLY not Jesus arriving to heaven.


You said that the bible doesn't show Jesus reigning in heaven and I proved that it does.


No scripture says Jesus reigns in heaven despite that all of us know that he does.



That still doesn't have anything to do with the topic of Revelation chapter 20 not stating Jesus on the earth
This is still an argument from silence fallacy. We know from many scriptures where Jesus is going to be in the timeframe of Rev 20. Even Amill places Jesus on the Earth in the middle of the chapter so the entire argument is disingenuous.


Also ignoring the rest of my post with more scripture proving an Earthly kingdom is very telling that your position has been debunked very thoroughly.
 

Marty fox

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Wrong. This is equivalent to the second coming, which is FROM heaven to the Earth not to heaven. You nee to be honest here because this is CLEARLY not Jesus arriving to heaven.





No scripture says Jesus reigns in heaven despite that all of us know that he does.




This is still an argument from silence fallacy. We know from many scriptures where Jesus is going to be in the timeframe of Rev 20. Even Amill places Jesus on the Earth in the middle of the chapter so the entire argument is disingenuous.


Also ignoring the rest of my post with more scripture proving an Earthly kingdom is very telling that your position has been debunked very thoroughly.
Daniel 7:13-14
13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man,[a] coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed

How can you honestly say that this verse clearly says that Jesus came on the clouds of heaven and Approached the Ancient of days as and came into His presence? And where was the Father?

9 “As I looked,

“thrones were set in place,
and the Ancient of Days took his seat.
His clothing was as white as snow;
the hair of his head was white like wool.
His throne was flaming with fire,
and its wheels were all ablaze.
10 A river of fire was flowing,
coming out from before him.
Thousands upon thousands attended him;
ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him.
The court was seated,
and the books were opened.

Yes in heaven and if you can’t admit that you clearly have a problem with pride and it’s pointless to ever debate with you again.

I don’t know of any amil who puts Jesus on the earth in the middle of the chapter and I don’t have a problem with an earthly kingdom it is on earth as it is in heaven the issue is that it doesn’t place Jesus on the earth
 

ewq1938

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Daniel 7:13-14
13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man,[a] coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed

How can you honestly say that this verse clearly says that Jesus came on the clouds of heaven


How can you honestly not understand what is happening?

Mat_24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat_26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
Mar_13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
Mar_14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.


and Approached the Ancient of days as and came into His presence? And where was the Father?

It is the day of judgment and does not happen in heaven. Rev 21 declares the heaven and Earth flew from God's sight.



Yes in heaven and if you can’t admit that you clearly have a problem with pride and it’s pointless to ever debate with you again.


That's not a description of me. I am debunking your beliefs and you are getting upset, and making it personal. That is the weapon of choice of the defeated.


I don’t know of any amil who puts Jesus on the earth in the middle of the chapter

This is the Amill second coming:

Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
 

Ronald Nolette

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Thanks but I do know all of the events that you are referring too as I use to believe in the same views as you do until I was challenged to actually study them for myself. Then I realized that what I and most believe is not actually in the bible so thats why I debate them.

For example and really think about this if Jesus literally reigning on the earth for a thousand years is the main event in Revelation chapter 20 wouldn't chapter 20 at least state Jesus reigning on the earth? Of course it would so ask yourself why doesn't it?
Well it does say, but just not in a way you think god should say it. The dead who were resurrected to reign with Jesus- after He returned to earth, are on earth. It seems unless certain verses contain the complete study of eschatology, you don't think they should be literal but ethereal.

I really doubt you have doen great studies on the major and minor prophets. they write so much about life in the millennial kingdom as to allow one to know for sure the kingdom is on earth for 1,000 years.
 

Marty fox

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Well it does say, but just not in a way you think god should say it. The dead who were resurrected to reign with Jesus- after He returned to earth, are on earth. It seems unless certain verses contain the complete study of eschatology, you don't think they should be literal but ethereal.

I really doubt you have doen great studies on the major and minor prophets. they write so much about life in the millennial kingdom as to allow one to know for sure the kingdom is on earth for 1,000 years.

Except it doesn't say on the earth and it actually says John sees a vision where the thrones were set. So if its literal and on the earth would it really omit that?

Yes I have and we are in the kingdom on earth and in heaven
 

Ronald Nolette

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Except it doesn't say on the earth and it actually says John sees a vision where the thrones were set. So if its literal and on the earth would it really omit that?

Yes I have and we are in the kingdom on earth and in heaven
Well how many other passages do you need to accept they are on earth!

Rev. 19:

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Jesus leaves heaven and returns to earth!

Defeats HIs physical enemies on earth.

Now remember Revelation was a letter and the chapters were added hundreds of years laet.

Revelation 20

King James Version

20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

1. Satan is abyssed for 1000 years.
2. So that the peoples on earth would be deceived no more.
3. Then the trib saints are resurrected ( onto earth) in the first resurrection to live and reign with Jesus for 1000 years.

Jesus talks about returning to earth in Matt. 24. and judging and ruling! this passage simply defines how long Jesus kingdom will last on earth!

If you wish to see a host of passages about life in the millenial kingdom on earth, please ask if you are serious and I will take the time to post them.
 

Marty fox

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Well how many other passages do you need to accept they are on earth!

Rev. 19:

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Jesus leaves heaven and returns to earth!

Defeats HIs physical enemies on earth.

Now remember Revelation was a letter and the chapters were added hundreds of years laet.

Revelation 20​

King James Version​

20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

1. Satan is abyssed for 1000 years.
2. So that the peoples on earth would be deceived no more.
3. Then the trib saints are resurrected ( onto earth) in the first resurrection to live and reign with Jesus for 1000 years.

Jesus talks about returning to earth in Matt. 24. and judging and ruling! this passage simply defines how long Jesus kingdom will last on earth!

If you wish to see a host of passages about life in the millenial kingdom on earth, please ask if you are serious and I will take the time to post them.

So were in those verses does it show Jesus on the earth? Once again John see a vision of Jesus up in heaven. The enemies are on the earth but its not a literal battle its a symbolic vision of Jesus defeating all of His enimies with the sword of His mouth His word.

Do you believe that this is the second coming if so then what about this verse below?

Revelation 2:16
16 Repent therefore! Otherwise, I will soon come to you and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth

Was or did Jesus literally come and kill people with a literal sword coming out of His mouth? No its symbolic for His word which is all powerful just like the bible says

If the verses you showed are literal who would be alive for the thousand years as it says that all people are killed?


I know the verses and I am not trying to be cocky i'm just showing exactually what the scripture says and showing that events have to be added to them to be a futuristic view
 

Ronald Nolette

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So were in those verses does it show Jesus on the earth? Once again John see a vision of Jesus up in heaven. The enemies are on the earth but its not a literal battle its a symbolic vision of Jesus defeating all of His enimies with the sword of His mouth His word.

Do you believe that this is the second coming if so then what about this verse below?

Revelation 2:16
16 Repent therefore! Otherwise, I will soon come to you and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth

Yes those verses are about His second coming to earth! The sword is HIs Word we know that! There is nothing to say it is symbolic. It is now up to you to prove that the armies of the antichrist which were marshalled at Har-Megiddo or the Valley of Jezreel are symbolic and not real soldiers set to do battle at the Great Day of God Almighty as Scripture says.

Teh the spirits that leave the mouth of Satan, the AC and the FP are symbolically gatheirng the armies of the earth.

And the vision JOhn sees is Jesus in heaven leading the armies of heaven and coming to earth to do battle. Even Isaiah speaks of Jesus battling His enemies at His return. No unless yo ucan give some solid evidence that this must be taken symbolically, it is a literal battle.

This takes place when He physically returns to earth as Scripture says. And then the events of Rev 20 take place. Just because you are dissatisfied that god made the events a quick summation of things written in detail elsewhere in His Inspired Word is irrelevant.
 

Marty fox

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Yes those verses are about His second coming to earth! The sword is HIs Word we know that! There is nothing to say it is symbolic. It is now up to you to prove that the armies of the antichrist which were marshalled at Har-Megiddo or the Valley of Jezreel are symbolic and not real soldiers set to do battle at the Great Day of God Almighty as Scripture says.

Teh the spirits that leave the mouth of Satan, the AC and the FP are symbolically gatheirng the armies of the earth.

And the vision JOhn sees is Jesus in heaven leading the armies of heaven and coming to earth to do battle. Even Isaiah speaks of Jesus battling His enemies at His return. No unless yo ucan give some solid evidence that this must be taken symbolically, it is a literal battle.

This takes place when He physically returns to earth as Scripture says. And then the events of Rev 20 take place. Just because you are dissatisfied that god made the events a quick summation of things written in detail elsewhere in His Inspired Word is irrelevant.
Do you believe that anyone knows when the second coming is?
 

Marty fox

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Yes those verses are about His second coming to earth! The sword is HIs Word we know that! There is nothing to say it is symbolic. It is now up to you to prove that the armies of the antichrist which were marshalled at Har-Megiddo or the Valley of Jezreel are symbolic and not real soldiers set to do battle at the Great Day of God Almighty as Scripture says.

Teh the spirits that leave the mouth of Satan, the AC and the FP are symbolically gatheirng the armies of the earth.

And the vision JOhn sees is Jesus in heaven leading the armies of heaven and coming to earth to do battle. Even Isaiah speaks of Jesus battling His enemies at His return. No unless yo ucan give some solid evidence that this must be taken symbolically, it is a literal battle.

This takes place when He physically returns to earth as Scripture says. And then the events of Rev 20 take place. Just because you are dissatisfied that god made the events a quick summation of things written in detail elsewhere in His Inspired Word is irrelevant.

Yet Revelation 19 it says nothing of the antichrist or Armageddon or even Jesus and his armies coming down to the earth. Do you see that events always need to be added to the scriptures to prove the futurist view?

The battle in rev 16 is the battle at Armageddon which is a different battle than the one in rev 19 as rev 19 says nothing about Armageddon. They are different battles with different combattons and different outcomes.

In rev 16 we have the defeat of Babylon the great by the beast and Jesus isn't mentioned. In rev 19 it is the defeat of the beast and the false prophet by Jesus and babylon the great isn't mentioned.

The beast and the antichrist are not the same only John mentions the antichrist in his epistles and he says that it is more than one a spirit and was present in John's day.

John doesn't mention the antichrist in revelation for a reason as the beast and the antichrist are described differently by John and John also give them a different purpose.

I am saying exactly when the scriptures say
 

ewq1938

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Except it doesn't say on the earth and it actually says John sees a vision where the thrones were set.

Yes I have and we are in the kingdom on earth and in heaven



LOL. You give Premill's such a hard time about a kingdom on Earth yet you clearly believe in one. *SMH* This is pure hypocrisy.
 

Marty fox

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LOL. You give Premill's such a hard time about a kingdom on Earth yet you clearly believe in one. *SMH* This is pure hypocrisy.
Not at all we are apart of the kingdom on earth because it’s within us
 

ewq1938

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Not at all we are apart of the kingdom on earth because it’s within us

But you deny a kingdom on Earth in general only when it's a Premill position but if it's Amill, no problem.

There is A LOT of "it's ok for us, but not for you" stuff in Amill.
 

Marty fox

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But you deny a kingdom on Earth in general only when it's a Premill position but if it's Amill, no problem.

There is A LOT of "it's ok for us, but not for you" stuff in Amill.
I have never denied a kingdom on earth amil teaching is a kingdom on earth it’s just not the literal thousand years with Jesus physically on the earth It’s spiritual on earth and in heaven
 

Marty fox

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You know exactly what I believe I stated it in the post you did this reply too so why did you even bother are you just trying to make me look a fool?

I never denied a kingdom on the earth I said that it’s not a literal thousand year kingdom with Jesus on the earth it is both spiritual on earth and in heaven
 

Ronald Nolette

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Yet Revelation 19 it says nothing of the antichrist or Armageddon or even Jesus and his armies coming down to the earth. Do you see that events always need to be added to the scriptures to prove the futurist view?

The battle in rev 16 is the battle at Armageddon which is a different battle than the one in rev 19 as rev 19 says nothing about Armageddon. They are different battles with different combattons and different outcomes.

In rev 16 we have the defeat of Babylon the great by the beast and Jesus isn't mentioned. In rev 19 it is the defeat of the beast and the false prophet by Jesus and babylon the great isn't mentioned.

The beast and the antichrist are not the same only John mentions the antichrist in his epistles and he says that it is more than one a spirit and was present in John's day.

John doesn't mention the antichrist in revelation for a reason as the beast and the antichrist are described differently by John and John also give them a different purpose.

I am saying exactly when the scriptures say
Well if REv. 19 was the entire sum of last days teaching you would be correct. but as it is but a thimbleful of the ocean of eschatological teaching the bible has, your point is as inane as it is irrelevant.