Two sets of a thousand years.

[Ronald Nolette]

Its about who Jesus is and what He did for us. Since the cross and through the gospel the nations now have access to Him

I have defined them repeatedly one the binding and one the reigning both symbolically described as a thousand years

You have defined them that way, the bible defines them differently.

Revelation 20

King James Version

​

20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

this is a very simple and straight forward passage.

In chapter 19 we see Jesus' return, defeat the antichrist and cast both him and the false prophet into the lake of fire.
Then we see Satan chained and abyssed for 1,000 years.
Then we see the first resurrection of tribulation saints who reign with Jesus for 1,000 years
Then after those 1,000 years Satan is released from the abyss and deceives the nations once more.

Why can't you accept the Word of God as written here? there is no symbolic language or construct to let us know it is a metaphor? Why do you feel the need to retranslate this?

 

[Marty fox]

You have defined them that way, the bible defines them differently.

Revelation 20​

​

King James Version​

​

​

20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

this is a very simple and straight forward passage.

In chapter 19 we see Jesus' return, defeat the antichrist and cast both him and the false prophet into the lake of fire.
Then we see Satan chained and abyssed for 1,000 years.
Then we see the first resurrection of tribulation saints who reign with Jesus for 1,000 years
Then after those 1,000 years Satan is released from the abyss and deceives the nations once more.

Why can't you accept the Word of God as written here? there is no symbolic language or construct to let us know it is a metaphor? Why do you feel the need to retranslate this?

Because its full of symbolic language and it also omits so much of what you believe

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Because its full of symbolic language and it also omits so much of what you believe

If I believe it is because it is in teh bible.

and the fact that Revelation is full of symbols is a lame excuse many use to take passages that should not be taken metaphorically and then make them metaphorical.

The golden rule of bible interpretation is the safest, most accurate and sound way to understand Scripture.

THE GOLDEN RULE OF INTERPRETATION​

​

1. The third rule of interpretation is as follows: WHEN THE PLAIN SENSE OF SCRIPTURE MAKES COMMON SENSE, SEEK NO OTHER SENSE; THEREFORE, TAKE EVERY WORD AT ITS PRIMARY, ORDINARY, USUAL, LITERAL MEANING UNLESS THE FACTS OF THE IMMEDIATE CONTEXT, STUDIED IN THE LIGHT OF RELATED PASSAGES AND AXIOMATIC AND FUNDAMENTAL TRUTHS INDICATE CLEARLY OTHERWISE.​
2. ​
   1. Seek the plain, literal meaning of the Scriptures.​
      1. The sum and substance of this most important rule is that one should take every statement of the Scriptures at its face value, if possible.​
      2. The following is an analysis of the adjectives "primary," "ordinary," and "usual."​
      3. "Primary" emphasizes the original, inherent idea in the term.​
      4. "Ordinary" and "usual" are practically synonyms, especially in this definition, "usual" being employed for the sake of emphasis.​
      5. "Literal" is used to emphasize the thought that every word must first be taken literally as expressing the exact thought of the author at the time when it was used; and one is not to go beyond the literal meaning of the Scriptures unless the facts of the context indicate a deeper, hidden or symbolic meaning.​
   2. Seek the figurative meaning only when the facts demand such an interpretation.​
      1. Modernism and rationalism are the logical outgrowth of forcing a figurative meaning upon a passage that is clearly literal, or vice versa.​
   3. Study every statement of the Scriptures in context. ("A TEXT APART FROM ITS CONTEXT IS A PRETEXT.") Then study the facts of the context in the light of related passages and axiomatic fundamental truths. "... No prophecy of scripture is of private (special) interpretation" (II Peter 1:20); "The sum of thy word is truth" (Psalm 119:160).​

the very fact you symbolize passages of Scripture that make perfect sense as written just makes you one of legions who have reinterpreted the plain meaning of Scripture to promote a non biblical agenda.

Also you rbinding of satan has no basis in fact as you defined it. Believers are being deceived all the time by the wiles of the devil. Paul would have had no need of warning to beware of Satan and his schemes if he could not devieve believers during the church age.

we would not have so many denominations and cults and heresies.​

 

[Jay Ross]

The reason that there is so much controversy and misunderstanding over Revelation chapter 20 is that most Christians don't understand that there are two sets of a thousand years one the reigning and one the binding. This is shown in Revelation chapter 20.

The argument sounds like set theory gone wrong. There is only one timeline as far as God is concerned. In Rev 20:1-7 there are two simultaneous events occurring, which share a common time span on God's timeline. The two events unfold independently during the same time period. Saying that there are two sets of 1,000-years is misleading and a complete fabrication that is best described as mathematical hogwash.

Logic is not always logical, even when we try to make it so.

 

[Marty fox]

The argument sounds like set theory gone wrong. There is only one timeline as far as God is concerned. In Rev 20:1-7 there are two simultaneous events occurring, which share a common time span on God's timeline. The two events unfold independently during the same time period. Saying that there are two sets of 1,000-years is misleading and a complete fabrication that is best described as mathematical hogwash.

Logic is not always logical, even when we try to make it so.

Verse 5 shows us that the reigning ends at the end of our world after the release of satan in verse 7

 

[Marty fox]

If I believe it is because it is in teh bible.

and the fact that Revelation is full of symbols is a lame excuse many use to take passages that should not be taken metaphorically and then make them metaphorical.

The golden rule of bible interpretation is the safest, most accurate and sound way to understand Scripture.

THE GOLDEN RULE OF INTERPRETATION​

​

1. The third rule of interpretation is as follows: WHEN THE PLAIN SENSE OF SCRIPTURE MAKES COMMON SENSE, SEEK NO OTHER SENSE; THEREFORE, TAKE EVERY WORD AT ITS PRIMARY, ORDINARY, USUAL, LITERAL MEANING UNLESS THE FACTS OF THE IMMEDIATE CONTEXT, STUDIED IN THE LIGHT OF RELATED PASSAGES AND AXIOMATIC AND FUNDAMENTAL TRUTHS INDICATE CLEARLY OTHERWISE.​
2. ​
   1. Seek the plain, literal meaning of the Scriptures.​
      1. The sum and substance of this most important rule is that one should take every statement of the Scriptures at its face value, if possible.​
      2. The following is an analysis of the adjectives "primary," "ordinary," and "usual."​
      3. "Primary" emphasizes the original, inherent idea in the term.​
      4. "Ordinary" and "usual" are practically synonyms, especially in this definition, "usual" being employed for the sake of emphasis.​
      5. "Literal" is used to emphasize the thought that every word must first be taken literally as expressing the exact thought of the author at the time when it was used; and one is not to go beyond the literal meaning of the Scriptures unless the facts of the context indicate a deeper, hidden or symbolic meaning.​
   2. Seek the figurative meaning only when the facts demand such an interpretation.​
      1. Modernism and rationalism are the logical outgrowth of forcing a figurative meaning upon a passage that is clearly literal, or vice versa.​
   3. Study every statement of the Scriptures in context. ("A TEXT APART FROM ITS CONTEXT IS A PRETEXT.") Then study the facts of the context in the light of related passages and axiomatic fundamental truths. "... No prophecy of scripture is of private (special) interpretation" (II Peter 1:20); "The sum of thy word is truth" (Psalm 119:160).​

the very fact you symbolize passages of Scripture that make perfect sense as written just makes you one of legions who have reinterpreted the plain meaning of Scripture to promote a non biblical agenda.

Also you rbinding of satan has no basis in fact as you defined it. Believers are being deceived all the time by the wiles of the devil. Paul would have had no need of warning to beware of Satan and his schemes if he could not devieve believers during the church age.

we would not have so many denominations and cults and heresies.​

First of all you completely ignored the fact that so much of the futurist views our omitted in revelation chapter 20

Second I don’t go against the biblical agenda at all because of Jesus we now reign in life over sin and death.

Through the spreading of the gospel people from all nations can now put their faith in Jesus and they are no longer deceived by satans lies as the gospel reveals who Jesus is and what He did to save us. So is that the biblical agenda or not? Did I go against it?

Do you ever think of how the gospel spread from a room full of people to all over the known world as Paul states within 30-40 years of the day of Pentecost. This was before fast travel, phones and the internet.

Now that sounds like satan is bound by deceiving the nations to me and it’s no coincidence that acts chapter 2 states that Jews from every nation heard Peters first sermon on the day of Pentecost and they then took the gospel back to their nations.

 

[Jay Ross]

Verse 5 shows us that the reigning ends at the end of our world after the release of satan in verse 7

That is an assumption that you are drawing. Rev 20 is not as clear as you are making out.

 

[Marty fox]

That is an assumption that you are drawing. Rev 20 is not as clear as you are making out.

Actually it is satan is released in verse 7 before his final attempt to wipe out Gods people but verse 5 says that the rest of the dead come back to life after the thousand years and the rest of the dead are raised in verse 11 and 12 at the judgement day After satan is cast into the lake of fire

Jesus doesn’t reign because satan is bound satan is bound because Jesus reigns

 

[ewq1938]

Actually it is satan is released in verse 7 before his final attempt to wipe out Gods people but verse 5 says that the rest of the dead come back to life after the thousand years and the rest of the dead are raised in verse 11 and 12 at the judgement day After satan is cast into the lake of fire

Jesus doesn’t reign because satan is bound satan is bound because Jesus reigns

No, satan will be bound because God sends an angel with a chain to first bind him, then the angel locks satan in the pit.

 

[ewq1938]

First of all you completely ignored the fact that so much of the futurist views our omitted in revelation chapter 20

It's Amill views that are omitted, not Premill. This is because Amill does not originate from the bible. Revelation is Premill and is the original of such a doctrine, which is why the first known Amill opposed it's canonization. No Premill was ever against the canonization of Revelation.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

First of all you completely ignored the fact that so much of the futurist views our omitted in revelation chapter 20

Second I don’t go against the biblical agenda at all because of Jesus we now reign in life over sin and death.

Through the spreading of the gospel people from all nations can now put their faith in Jesus and they are no longer deceived by satans lies as the gospel reveals who Jesus is and what He did to save us. So is that the biblical agenda or not? Did I go against it?

Do you ever think of how the gospel spread from a room full of people to all over the known world as Paul states within 30-40 years of the day of Pentecost. This was before fast travel, phones and the internet.

Now that sounds like satan is bound by deceiving the nations to me and it’s no coincidence that acts chapter 2 states that Jews from every nation heard Peters first sermon on the day of Pentecost and they then took the gospel back to their nations.

No REvelation 20 is a bedrock for the biblical futurist view.

People are still being deceived by Satans lies even though the gospel is going forward. Ever hear of Joel Osteen, Beeny Hinn, Ken Copeland Creflo dollar TD Jakes, Watchtower, Mormons, Islam and a host of others?

Even in believing churches 40% no longer believe in teh deity of Jesus? Satan is not deceibing? The facts prove different!

And the gospel hadn't made it through the known world. They knew there was a lot more known world and the gospel hadn't got there yet!

Yes the gospel is going out. but if you think the fat that Islam is now the worlds largest religion, shamanism is resurging, truth is dying in the believing churches, much of christendom is apostate cults have thrived and agnosticism now is the preferred religious preference of 40% of Adult Americans. that doesn't sound like our enemy os bound as Paul and Peter and John warned us about.

Before Christianity there was also a faith to reveal the truth- Judaism It failed as the external church has failed.

 

[Marty fox]

No REvelation 20 is a bedrock for the biblical futurist view.

People are still being deceived by Satans lies even though the gospel is going forward. Ever hear of Joel Osteen, Beeny Hinn, Ken Copeland Creflo dollar TD Jakes, Watchtower, Mormons, Islam and a host of others?

Even in believing churches 40% no longer believe in teh deity of Jesus? Satan is not deceibing? The facts prove different!

And the gospel hadn't made it through the known world. They knew there was a lot more known world and the gospel hadn't got there yet!

Yes the gospel is going out. but if you think the fat that Islam is now the worlds largest religion, shamanism is resurging, truth is dying in the believing churches, much of christendom is apostate cults have thrived and agnosticism now is the preferred religious preference of 40% of Adult Americans. that doesn't sound like our enemy os bound as Paul and Peter and John warned us about.

Before Christianity there was also a faith to reveal the truth- Judaism It failed as the external church has failed.

Once again you completely ignored the fact that so much of futurist views are omitted in revelation 20

You misunderstood what I said that the deceiving is go back to post #86

Paul stated 4 times in the bible that the gospel had reached the whole known world in his day.

Yes much of the church is conforming maybe we are living in the time of satan released

 

[ewq1938]

Yes much of the church is conforming maybe we are living in the time of satan released

No, we are living in the time BEFORE satan is imprisoned. In your Preterist view, most of Rev is fulfilled like the GT, Ac ruling the world and the two prophets killed and resurrected, none of which has yet happened not to mention the second coming is the same day the two resurrect according to Rev 11.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Once again you completely ignored the fact that so much of futurist views are omitted in revelation 20

You misunderstood what I said that the deceiving is go back to post #86

Paul stated 4 times in the bible that the gospel had reached the whole known world in his day.

Yes much of the church is conforming maybe we are living in the time of satan released

What views are omitted?

Please list them specifically and I wll answer. Many things are omitted of the biblical view in Rev. 20 for REv. 20 only speaks of a few events.

People all over the world are still deceived by Satans lies. All of Asia minor in the OT knew of the Jews and their faith and they still were deceived. this is a false argument on your part.

As Satan has not been abyssed yet- he cannot be released. the bible specifically says Satan is cast into the abyss (bottomless pit) god knew how to simply say that it meant just not being able to deceive if that is what He meant. JOhn wrote this at the end of the first century and He wrote about Satan still deceiving the world.

Teh people of god in bothOT and NT have been set free from deception by adhering to the voice of God.

 

[Marty fox]

What views are omitted?

Please list them specifically and I wll answer. Many things are omitted of the biblical view in Rev. 20 for REv. 20 only speaks of a few events.

People all over the world are still deceived by Satans lies. All of Asia minor in the OT knew of the Jews and their faith and they still were deceived. this is a false argument on your part.

As Satan has not been abyssed yet- he cannot be released. the bible specifically says Satan is cast into the abyss (bottomless pit) god knew how to simply say that it meant just not being able to deceive if that is what He meant. JOhn wrote this at the end of the first century and He wrote about Satan still deceiving the world.

Teh people of god in bothOT and NT have been set free from deception by adhering to the voice of God.

Did you read my post? You keep saying that people are being deceived but thats not what I stated the deceiving is.

If Revelation 20 is supposed to be literal the events below are omitted from it

Jesus on the earth

Jerusalem

A time of peace on the earth

Jesus ascending back up to heaven (He would of if it says that satan surround the city and not that satan surrounds Jesus and the city)

The reigning and binding ending at the same time

Satan surrounding Jerusalem

Satan doing any evil (not just deceiving)

A third temple

Jesus living in the temple in Jerusalem

Other main events not in revelation if its literal

A seven year tribulation

A third temple being built

The antichrist

The antichrist desecrating the temple

The rapture

There are more thats just to name some

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Did you read my post? You keep saying that people are being deceived but thats not what I stated the deceiving is.

If Revelation 20 is supposed to be literal the events below are omitted from it

Jesus on the earth

Jerusalem

A time of peace on the earth

Jesus ascending back up to heaven (He would of if it says that satan surround the city and not that satan surrounds Jesus and the city)

The reigning and binding ending at the same time

Satan surrounding Jerusalem

Satan doing any evil (not just deceiving)

A third temple

Jesus living in the temple in Jerusalem

Other main events not in revelation if its literal

A seven year tribulation

A third temple being built

The antichrist

The antichrist desecrating the temple

The rapture

There are more thats just to name some

Have you even read a study on eschatology? You seemed to have thrown a whole bunch of stuff there that if you paid attention to the Bible you would know that most of these are absurd additions by you.

Rev. 20 simply tells of what happens to Satan for 1,000 years and the resurrected trib saints reigning with Jesus for 1,000 years. After the thousand years Satan is loosed.

If you want to know abou tthe rest of the things you listed as a proof that REv. 20 should not be literal, I can recommend an excellent textbook on Escahtology you can read. It does describe in detail all those things that are spoken of elsewhere in teh bible.

Just because God did not put everything about teh millenial kingdom in a few chapters in one book, does not give you the right to discard the literal kingdom of 1,000 years while satan is bound and in teh bottomless pit.

 

[Marty fox]

Have you even read a study on eschatology? You seemed to have thrown a whole bunch of stuff there that if you paid attention to the Bible you would know that most of these are absurd additions by you.

Rev. 20 simply tells of what happens to Satan for 1,000 years and the resurrected trib saints reigning with Jesus for 1,000 years. After the thousand years Satan is loosed.

If you want to know abou tthe rest of the things you listed as a proof that REv. 20 should not be literal, I can recommend an excellent textbook on Escahtology you can read. It does describe in detail all those things that are spoken of elsewhere in teh bible.

Just because God did not put everything about teh millenial kingdom in a few chapters in one book, does not give you the right to discard the literal kingdom of 1,000 years while satan is bound and in teh bottomless pit.

Thanks but I do know all of the events that you are referring too as I use to believe in the same views as you do until I was challenged to actually study them for myself. Then I realized that what I and most believe is not actually in the bible so thats why I debate them.

For example and really think about this if Jesus literally reigning on the earth for a thousand years is the main event in Revelation chapter 20 wouldn't chapter 20 at least state Jesus reigning on the earth? Of course it would so ask yourself why doesn't it?

 

[ewq1938]

Thanks but I do know all of the events that you are referring too as I use to believe in the same views as you do until I was challenged to actually study them for myself. Then I realized that what I and most believe is not actually in the bible so thats why I debate them.

For example and really think about this if Jesus literally reigning on the earth for a thousand years is the main event in Revelation chapter 20 wouldn't chapter 20 at least state Jesus reigning on the earth? Of course it would so ask yourself why doesn't it?

This is a version of the argument from silence fallacy. Example: For example and really think about this if Jesus literally reigning in heaven for a longer than thousand years thousand years and is the main event in Revelation chapter 20 wouldn't chapter 20 (or any place in the bible) at least state Jesus reigning in heaven? Of course it would so ask yourself why doesn't it?


The bible never says Jesus is reigning or ruling in heaven yet we all accept he does.

Obvious there are many scriptures that ALLUDE to this fact, as well as the fact that he rules on the Earth after returning.

 

[Marty fox]

This is a version of the argument from silence fallacy. Example: For example and really think about this if Jesus literally reigning in heaven for a longer than thousand years thousand years and is the main event in Revelation chapter 20 wouldn't chapter 20 (or any place in the bible) at least state Jesus reigning in heaven? Of course it would so ask yourself why doesn't it?


The bible never says Jesus is reigning or ruling in heaven yet we all accept he does.

Obvious there are many scriptures that ALLUDE to this fact, as well as the fact that he rules on the Earth after returning.

Daniel 7:13-14
13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man,[a] coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

 

[ewq1938]

Daniel 7:13-14
13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man,[a] coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

This supports a reign on the Earth since he has left heaven and is given "authority, glory and sovereign power" and the Earthly nations worship him. That's Premill.

What else is Premill there:

Dan 7:17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.

These kings come from out of the Earth.

Dan 7:18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

That is an Earthly kingdom being taken and possessed forever. And there is more of this:


Dan 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
Dan 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Dan 7:26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.

So the dominion of this Earthly kingdom shall be taken away from it's leader...and then what happens?

Dan 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.


Again, the Earthly kingdom with it's former dominion will be given to the saints and it will be an everlasting kingdom. The place of this kingdom did not change, the Earth. This whole chapter is pure Premill with the saints reigning the Earth in a kingdom that will never end. The dominion of the REvelation 13 beast will be taken by the saints and they will exercise it's Earthly dominion as Daniel states. Amill is "A-real". Only Premill is biblical.