Two Ways of thinking about OSAS

[H. Richard]

eph 1:7-8 is not a promise but a guarantee.

col 1:13-17 again this is a guarantee and fact but it is not a promise.



i would very much want to know how you came up with what you posted. if what you say is true then there was no need for Jesus to be born human. for Jesus was tempted as we were and remained sinless but it was not because He was God. btw Jesus was not the only person born from a virgin according to scripture. But Jesus was the only one that remained sinless.

God bless

A guarantee is a promise. Check your Dictionary.

Show me the scriptures where the it states a person was born of a virgin other than Jesus. You make a lot of assumptions and give no scriptural support for them.

Under the law of Moses the animal to be sacrificed was to be without blemish. Jesus was the only one that was conceived without the sperm of a man.

Matt 1:23-25
23 "Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel," which is translated, "God with us."
24 Then Joseph, being aroused from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord commanded him and took to him his wife,
25 and did not know her till she had brought forth her firstborn Son. And he called His name Jesus.
NKJV

So much for Joseph being the father of Jesus.

A virgin is a woman that has not had a human penis inserted. Again check your Dictionary.

 

[mjrhealth]

Josepf as far as conception goes is not the father of Jesus. He was, as one could put it, Jesus adopted father simply because he was bethroed to Mary. Jesus was conceived in Mary when,

Luk 1:38 And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her

because He told her

Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Jesus was born of an earthly mother and heavenly father, and teh only one born of a virgin in the bible.

 

[7angels]

A guarantee is a promise. Check your Dictionary.

Show me the scriptures where the it states a person was born of a virgin other than Jesus. You make a lot of assumptions and give no scriptural support for them.

Under the law of Moses the animal to be sacrificed was to be without blemish. Jesus was the only one that was conceived without the sperm of a man.

Matt 1:23-25
23 "Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel," which is translated, "God with us."
24 Then Joseph, being aroused from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord commanded him and took to him his wife,
25 and did not know her till she had brought forth her firstborn Son. And he called His name Jesus.
NKJV

So much for Joseph being the father of Jesus.

A virgin is a woman that has not had a human penis inserted. Again check your Dictionary.

Then the Lord spoke again to [King] Ahaz, saying, 11 “Ask a sign for yourself from the Lord your God [one that will convince you that God has spoken and will keep His word]; make your request as deep as Sheol or as high as heaven.” 12 But Ahaz said, “[e]I will not ask, nor will I test the Lord!” 13 Then Isaiah said, “Hear then, O house of David! Is it too small a thing for you to try the patience of men, but will you try the patience of my God as well? 14 Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Listen carefully, the [SIZE=.625em][f]virgin will conceive and give birth to a son[/SIZE], and she will call his name Immanuel (God with us).

these verses speak of a double prophesy. first, it speaks of virgin being born as proof that ahaz will be victorious. second, it speaks of the coming of Jesus' birth. for if this was speaking of just Jesus' birth then how would ahaz know that God was speaking to him and would uphold His Word. the sign of the birth of Jesus would of done ahas little good to convince him that what God said if the sign didn't come to pass for more than 1000 years.

btw in post #215 you ask who was Jesus' earthly father. God was Jesus' heavenly father. just as an adopted kid will have a father that is not biological does not change the fact that the adopted kid still has a father. the same goes for Jesus.

God bless

 

[H. Richard]

Then the Lord spoke again to [King] Ahaz, saying, 11 “Ask a sign for yourself from the Lord your God [one that will convince you that God has spoken and will keep His word]; make your request as deep as Sheol or as high as heaven.” 12 But Ahaz said, “[SIZE=.62em][e]I will not ask, nor will I test the Lord[/SIZE]!” 13 Then Isaiah said, “Hear then, O house of David! Is it too small a thing for you to try the patience of men, but will you try the patience of my God as well? 14 Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Listen carefully, the [SIZE=.62em][f]virgin will conceive and give birth to a son[/SIZE], and she will call his name Immanuel (God with us).

these verses speak of a double prophesy. first, it speaks of virgin being born as proof that ahaz will be victorious. second, it speaks of the coming of Jesus' birth. for if this was speaking of just Jesus' birth then how would ahaz know that God was speaking to him and would uphold His Word. the sign of the birth of Jesus would of done ahas little good to convince him that what God said if the sign didn't come to pass for more than 1000 years.

btw in post #215 you ask who was Jesus' earthly father. God was Jesus' heavenly father. just as an adopted kid will have a father that is not biological does not change the fact that the adopted kid still has a father. the same goes for Jesus.

God bless

You wouldn't know a prophesy if it hit you in the face.

There was only one prophesy. Every reader know that what you see as another virgin birth is addressed to the nation of Israel, not Ahaz “Hear then, O house of David! Is it too small a thing for you to try the patience of men, but will you try the patience of my God as well? 14 Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Listen carefully, the [SIZE=.62em][f]virgin will conceive and give birth to a son[/SIZE], and she will call his name Immanuel (God with us).


In Matt 1:23-25
23 "Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel," which is translated, "God with us."
24 Then Joseph, being aroused from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord commanded him and took to him his wife,
25 and did not know her till she had brought forth her firstborn Son. And he called His name Jesus.
NKJV

Are you trying to say that both births you claim will be "God with us"? How amazing!!!!!

 

[7angels]

i enjoyed our discussions even though we don't seethings the same way. but with insults starting to come out tells me it is time to quit.

God bless

You wouldn't know a prophesy if it hit you in the face.

 

[H. Richard]

i enjoyed our discussions even though we don't seethings the same way. but with insults starting to come out tells me it is time to quit.

God bless

We disagree on many things one of which is your ideas that you get when you read a scripture.

A good example of what I am saying is what happened to Cain and Able.

God told, both Cain and Able that they were required to offer a blood sacrifice . This is what God said. Able believed what God said and offered a blood sacrifice.

But Cain did not listen to what God said and thought to himself that God would surely take his offering of the things brought about by the works of his hands.

The story is the same today. God says in the gospel of grace that Jesus gave to Paul that He has paid for all the sins of the world and a person must believe it. But man does not believe in the gospel of grace given to Paul. They believe in their works in religions.

Gen 4:2-5
2 Then she bore again, this time his brother Abel. Now Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.
3 And in the process of time it came to pass that Cain brought an offering of the fruit of the ground to the Lord.
4 Abel also brought of the firstborn of his flock and of their fat. And the Lord respected Abel and his offering,
5 but He did not respect Cain and his offering. And Cain was very angry, and his countenance fell.
NKJV

It is no different today in that those in religions are jealous of those that trust in God's plan of salvation.

 

[Phoneman777]

Those that do not believe in OSAS are the ones that believe they save themselves by not sinning in the flesh.

Those that believe in OSAS are the ones that believe they are saved by what Jesus did on the cross and not by their ability to not sin in the flesh.

Phil 3:3
3 For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh,
NKJV

2 Cor 11:3-5
3 But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
4 For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted — you may well put up with it!
Paul and False Apostles 5 For I consider that I am not at all inferior to the most eminent apostles.
NKJV

I don't reject OSAS b/c I'm trying to obtain salvation in a way other than prescribed in Scripture - I reject it b/c it's ludicrous.

OSAS allows lost people to feel themselves secure in salvation while they continue breaking God's commandments. True believers that love Jesus will eventually come to the place where they would rather die than break them.

Is there someone who relishes the idea of mind-numbed devotion to himself from the masses which he seeks to achieve by coercion, manipulation, and deception? Yes, the god of this world. My God says, "If ye love Me, keep My commandments." Yes, Jesus, I love you and I want to be just like you - obedient to Your law. Thank you for giving me the power to obey You each day and the forgiveness I need if I fail You as I learn to be less like me and more like You.

 

[H. Richard]

I don't reject OSAS b/c I'm trying to obtain salvation in a way other than prescribed in Scripture - I reject it b/c it's ludicrous.

OSAS allows lost people to feel themselves secure in salvation while they continue breaking God's commandments. True believers that love Jesus will eventually come to the place where they would rather die than break them.

Is there someone who relishes the idea of mind-numbed devotion to himself from the masses which he seeks to achieve by coercion, manipulation, and deception? Yes, the god of this world. My God says, "If ye love Me, keep My commandments." Yes, Jesus, I love you and I want to be just like you - obedient to Your law. Thank you for giving me the power to obey You each day and the forgiveness I need if I fail You as I learn to be less like me and more like You.

You said, "OSAS allows lost people to feel themselves secure in salvation while they continue breaking God's commandments. True believers that love Jesus will eventually come to the place where they would rather die than break them." --- This proves my statement that the religious are self-righteous and think they no longer sin like everyone else does. The result is that they never repent because they think they do not sin any longer.

The message that Jesus gave to Saul/Paul to proclaim to the Gentiles (and all those that would believe in it) was a message of God's grace that says all our sins were paid for by Jesus on the cross and that we are no longer under the law, we are dead to it. Satan, the god of this world, does not want people to believe in this message of grace. The way Satan does this is to get the religious to add works of the Law to grace. Most all religious churches teach that what Jesus said to the Jews who were under the law of Moses is for us who are not under the law of Moses.

Satan has blinded the heart and eyes of the religious today so that they can tell everyone that if you break any of the commandments you are sinning and therefor lost. The truth is that they refuse to listen to the Apostle that Jesus specifically gave to the world for this age of God's grace. Their religious minds can not except that Jesus was only sent to the Jews and Paul was sent to us.

It is amazing to me that they sin just like everyone else but they are out there telling everyone that if they break a commandment they are not saved until they repent. The problem with this is that they do not believe they sin like everyone else therefor they have nothing to repent of. Why? Because they are self-righteous.

 

[mjrhealth]

Much more to write, again this will do for moment.

Act 15:23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:
Act 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

 

[Phoneman777]

You said, "OSAS allows lost people to feel themselves secure in salvation while they continue breaking God's commandments. True believers that love Jesus will eventually come to the place where they would rather die than break them." --- This proves my statement that the religious are self-righteous and think they no longer sin like everyone else does. The result is that they never repent because they think they do not sin any longer.

Nah, I disagree. Jesus said, "If ye love Me, keep My commandments." Please tell me the name of your Bible version that says, "keep on sinning else you'll think you are self-righteous" and I'll be sure to avoid it like the plague. :)

 

[FHII]

Nah, I disagree. Jesus said, "If ye love Me, keep My commandments." Please tell me the name of your Bible version that says, "keep on sinning else you'll think you are self-righteous" and I'll be sure to avoid it like the plague. :)

H. Richard never said that. You totally miss his point. And your post proves it. You said that Jesus said, "keep my commandments". Problem is you aren't keeoing them, but you disagree with him? So you are actually keeping Jesus's commandments? You aren't. Unless you do it by faith


Time and time again.... Folks who don't believe in OSAS also don't believe in grace through faith.

 

[Phoneman777]

H. Richard never said that. You totally miss his point. And your post proves it. You said that Jesus said, "keep my commandments". Problem is you aren't keeoing them, but you disagree with him? So you are actually keeping Jesus's commandments? You aren't. Unless you do it by faith


Time and time again.... Folks who don't believe in OSAS also don't believe in grace through faith.

God's love is unconditional. His salvation is conditional: if a man truly believes on Jesus Christ for salvation, he will without any exception whatsoever choose to "abide in the Vine" through a moment by moment continual, voluntary surrendered love relationship with Jesus in which he who can do nothing apart from Christ is empowered to do all things through Christ who strengthens him.

However, OSAS misrepresents this relationship as one in which God involuntary, forcefully imposes Himself upon the sinner who is robbed of his freewill to depart the relationship, because OSAS needs an artificial means by which both sinful indulgence and eternal security may simultaneously retained.

What do we call someone who forces himself upon another in an unwanted intimate relationship against their will? That's right. OSAS essentially represents God as a COSMIC RAPIST. My God, the God of the Bible, is a Gentlemen Who says, "Whosoever will, let him come" and has never said nor ever will say, "Whosoever I will, I will force you to come." That's the diff between OSAS and Bible truth.

 

[FHII]

God's love is unconditional. His salvation is conditional: if a man truly believes on Jesus Christ for salvation, he will without any exception whatsoever choose to "abide in the Vine" through a moment by moment continual, voluntary surrendered love relationship with Jesus in which he who can do nothing apart from Christ is empowered to do all things through Christ who strengthens him.

However, OSAS misrepresents this relationship as one in which God involuntary, forcefully imposes Himself upon the sinner who is robbed of his freewill to depart the relationship, because OSAS needs an artificial means by which both sinful indulgence and eternal security may simultaneously retained.

What do we call someone who forces himself upon another in an unwanted intimate relationship against their will? That's right. OSAS essentially represents God as a COSMIC RAPIST. My God, the God of the Bible, is a Gentlemen Who says, "Whosoever will, let him come" and has never said nor ever will say, "Whosoever I will, I will force you to come." That's the diff between OSAS and Bible truth.

Don't change the subject, just answer the charges!

1. H. Never said that.
2. Your posts continually prove you believe in grace only if you stop sinning.
3. New charge: your view on OSAS is totally ignorant of what Calvin taught.
4. New Charge: free will is not in the Bible. Paul, Jonah, Jeremiah, Joseph, are a few examples. You folks just put a clintonesque spin on it, which never makes sense.
5. New charge: you refuse to understand (though its been explained) that the "whosevers..." are ID's. Not open invitations.
6. New Charge: you call God a rapist. I never thought it would be possible to stoop below the democratic party....


But you did.

 

[Phoneman777]

Don't change the subject, just answer the charges!

1. H. Never said that.
2. Your posts continually prove you believe in grace only if you stop sinning.
3. New charge: your view on OSAS is totally ignorant of what Calvin taught.
4. New Charge: free will is not in the Bible. Paul, Jonah, Jeremiah, Joseph, are a few examples. You folks just put a clintonesque spin on it, which never makes sense.
5. New charge: you refuse to understand (though its been explained) that the "whosevers..." are ID's. Not open invitations.
6. New Charge: you call God a rapist. I never thought it would be possible to stoop below the democratic party....


But you di

No, I will not answer multiple accusations in one post. One at a time or none at all, thank you very much. BTW, it is YOU CALVINISTS who call God a Cosmic Rapist, not me, for my God would never force Himself on me or anyone else. Why do you accuse Him of rape? Why do you accuse Him of forcing Himself on others like some control freak psychopath rapist? Did Jesus force Himself on anyone or did He say, "Whosoever will, let him take of the water of life freely..."? Obviously, you missed the part when Jesus said, "If you've seen ME, you've seen the FATHER." Please stop characterizing my God as a Cosmic Rapist through your convoluted doctrine!

 

[FHII]

No, I will not answer multiple accusations in one post. One at a time or none at all, thank you very much. BTW, it is YOU CALVINISTS who call God a Cosmic Rapist, not me, for my God would never force Himself on me or anyone else. Why do you accuse Him of rape? Why do you accuse Him of forcing Himself on others like some control freak psychopath rapist? Did Jesus force Himself on anyone or did He say, "Whosoever will, let him take of the water of life freely..."? Obviously, you missed the part when Jesus said, "If you've seen ME, you've seen the FATHER." Please stop characterizing my God as a Cosmic Rapist through your convoluted doctrine!

Never uttered the term. That was you! You're going on my ignore list. You have nothing to say that interests me.

 

[ScaliaFan]

Those that do not believe in OSAS are the ones that believe they save themselves by not sinning in the flesh.

2 extremes

and you are WRONG


osas is unbiblical

 

[H. Richard]

2 extremes

and you are WRONG


osas is unbiblical

Only in your mind. Let me introduce you to Paul's writings because it is obvious you haven't read them. When Paul says we are sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption what does that mean to you?

 

[Phoneman777]

Only in your mind. Let me introduce you to Paul's writings because it is obvious you haven't read them. When Paul says we are sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption what does that mean to you?

Yes, but what is the "seal"? There is a Messianic prophecy in Isaiah 8:14-16 KJV which speaks of what was to seal the disciples of that hated Stumbling Block, the Stumbling Block which Romans 9:33 KJV clearly affirms was an OT Messianic reference to Jesus Christ: "Bind up the testimony; seal the law among My disciples."

Those who are indeed "sealed" by the Holy Spirit are empowered by God to keep His commandments - the Ten Commandments (James says killing and adultery are still sin while Paul says circumcision and Jewish feast days don't matter anymore). It is a mistake to think that a Christian who kicks the Holy Spirit out of his life and lives contrary to the law of God remains yet sealed by the law of God which is affixed by that same Holy Spirit.

Of course, 2,000 years ago they crucified Christ and exalted His law and today we crucify the law and exalt Christ, and both are a mistake: Christians are to exalt Christ and keep by His grace keep His commandments because Christians love and follow Christ - they do not rebel against His law and expect to remain sealed by it.

 

[StanJ]

Yes, but what is the "seal"? There is a Messianic prophecy in Isaiah 8:14-16 KJV which speaks of what was to seal the disciples of that hated Stumbling Block, the Stumbling Block which Romans 9:33 KJV clearly affirms was an OT Messianic reference to Jesus Christ: "Bind up the testimony; seal the law among My disciples."

Those who are indeed "sealed" by the Holy Spirit are empowered by God to keep His commandments - the Ten Commandments (James says killing and adultery are still sin while Paul says circumcision and Jewish feast days don't matter anymore). It is a mistake to think that a Christian who kicks the Holy Spirit out of his life and lives contrary to the law of God remains yet sealed by the law of God which is affixed by that same Holy Spirit.

Of course, 2,000 years ago they crucified Christ and exalted His law and today we crucify the law and exalt Christ, and both are a mistake: Christians are to exalt Christ and keep by His grace keep His commandments because Christians love and follow Christ - they do not rebel against His law and expect to remain sealed by it.

1 John 2:1

 

[Thorwald]

Those that do not believe in OSAS are the ones that believe they save themselves by not sinning in the flesh.

Those that believe in OSAS are the ones that believe they are saved by what Jesus did on the cross and not by their ability to not sin in the flesh.

Phil 3:3
3 For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh,
NKJV

2 Cor 11:3-5
3 But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
4 For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted — you may well put up with it!
Paul and False Apostles 5 For I consider that I am not at all inferior to the most eminent apostles.
NKJV

Jesus warned us, by using a parable of 'seeds falling on different ground'. Our greatest problem, is CONTINUING in our faith, and ceasing to remain as 'babes sucking milk', or returning to a life of sin. Jesus told us, that becoming saved a second time, is like crucifying Him for a second time.