Two Ways of thinking about OSAS

[mjrhealth]

you say this but please show me in scripture where this is the only thing that condemns mankind. not believing in Jesus condemns mankind to hell is one of several i know about.

Because unbelief covers a multitude of sin

Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Heb 3:18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
Heb 3:19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
Heb 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Many on here declare their salvation yet through unbelief have determined that they are not saved. How can that be??

 

[mjrhealth]

to my knowledge at this time there is no scripture that says the flesh is evil

Rom_7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

If it is not good than it must be bad..You know the bit

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

 

[7angels]

Because unbelief covers a multitude of sin

Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Heb 3:18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
Heb 3:19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
Heb 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Many on here declare their salvation yet through unbelief have determined that they are not saved. How can that be??

first remember that richard said, "The only thing that condemns men and women in this age of grace is the sin of unbelief." but you just posted another scripture that proves my point. heb 3:19 if you finish the rest of that verse says and an unwillingness to trust in God. so unbelief is one of several that can condemn mankind.

Rom_7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

If it is not good than it must be bad..You know the bit

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

second, just because something is bad for you does not necessarily mean it is evil. look at chocolate for example. chocolate is bad for our health but it is not evil. i knew of the above mentioned scriptures but this whole discussion depends upon how richard defines what he is referring too.

btw if we are acting out of fleshly desires you are correct but the flesh itself is not evil in and of itself.

God bless

 

[mjrhealth]

and an unwillingness to trust in God.

and what is a unwillingness to trust in God, "unbelief".

but the flesh itself is not evil in and of itself.

no but

Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

no good comes from it either.

 

[H. Richard]

first remember that richard said, "The only thing that condemns men and women in this age of grace is the sin of unbelief." but you just posted another scripture that proves my point. heb 3:19 if you finish the rest of that verse says and an unwillingness to trust in God. so unbelief is one of several that can condemn mankind.



second, just because something is bad for you does not necessarily mean it is evil. look at chocolate for example. chocolate is bad for our health but it is not evil. i knew of the above mentioned scriptures but this whole discussion depends upon how richard defines what he is referring too.

btw if we are acting out of fleshly desires you are correct but the flesh itself is not evil in and of itself.

God bless

The scriptures say that without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness for sins. If you have no faith in Jesus' shed blood on the cross then you have no forgiveness for your sins.

Heb 9:22
22 And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission.
NKJV

Gen 8:21
21 And the Lord smelled a soothing aroma. Then the Lord said in His heart, "I will never again curse the ground for man's sake, although the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; nor will I again destroy every living thing as I have done.
NKJV

Deut 1:35
35 'Surely not one of these men of this evil generation shall see that good land of which I swore to give to your fathers,
NKJV

Matt 7:11
11 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him!
NKJV

Rom 7:19-21
19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice.
20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good.
NKJV

The scriptures say that through one mans sin, sin entered into the world and with it death. In God's eyes the flesh is evil because it refuses to believe what He (God) says. In another place it says that flesh and blood will never enter into heaven. Could it be that flesh and blood is evil in the sight of God?

You have to remember that the original sin was not eating an apple. The original sin was believing Satan instead of God. Those that believe God are blessed.

 

[7angels]

and what is a unwillingness to trust in God, "unbelief".



no but

Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

no good comes from it either.

1. heb 3:19 talks of unbelief and unwillingness to trust God. if these 2 things were the same thing then there would not be an 'AND' between the to parts. therefore they cannot be one and the same.

2. the flesh seeks physical pleasure and the spirit seeks spiritual pleasure from God and the mind determines which it will follow. sometimes the mind chooses physical pleasure and at other times it seek spiritual pleasure. for example, physical pleasure could include sex with your spouse. this is not wrong so the flesh cannot be evil but it can commit evil. john 6:63 is saying what the flesh wants will not gain us anything spiritually. another example is going hunting. hunting does not gain us anything spiritually but it is not wrong either. when flesh is mentioned everyone always thinks the worst.

The scriptures say that without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness for sins. If you have no faith in Jesus' shed blood on the cross then you have no forgiveness for your sins.

Heb 9:22
22 And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission.
NKJV

Gen 8:21
21 And the Lord smelled a soothing aroma. Then the Lord said in His heart, "I will never again curse the ground for man's sake, although the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; nor will I again destroy every living thing as I have done.
NKJV

Deut 1:35
35 'Surely not one of these men of this evil generation shall see that good land of which I swore to give to your fathers,
NKJV

Matt 7:11
11 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him!
NKJV

Rom 7:19-21
19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice.
20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good.
NKJV

The scriptures say that through one mans sin, sin entered into the world and with it death. In God's eyes the flesh is evil because it refuses to believe what He (God) says. In another place it says that flesh and blood will never enter into heaven. Could it be that flesh and blood is evil in the sight of God?

You have to remember that the original sin was not eating an apple. The original sin was believing Satan instead of God. Those that believe God are blessed.

the scripture you listed are contrary to what you just stated when you said, "The scriptures say that through one mans sin, sin entered into the world and with it death. In God's eyes the flesh is evil because it refuses to believe what He (God) says. In another place it says that flesh and blood will never enter into heaven. Could it be that flesh and blood is evil in the sight of God?" if blood is bad then heb 9:22 where Jesus shed his blood is bad too. if you were wrong about the blood it is possible you are wrong about the flesh too.

God bless

 

[mjrhealth]

1. heb 3:19 talks of unbelief and unwillingness to trust God. if these 2 things were the same thing then there would not be an 'AND' between the to parts

I didnt think it would be so difficult.... To trust some one you must believe them, if you dont believe them , than how can you trust them?????? Unbelief... one and teh same...

As for the flesh it serves one purpose, it is a vessel for out Spirit, no good come of outr flesh, everything it does, good or bad counts for nothintg, the flesh is all about Self, which is why teh enemy wins so many little battles over us.

 

[H. Richard]

1. heb 3:19 talks of unbelief and unwillingness to trust God. if these 2 things were the same thing then there would not be an 'AND' between the to parts. therefore they cannot be one and the same.

2. the flesh seeks physical pleasure and the spirit seeks spiritual pleasure from God and the mind determines which it will follow. sometimes the mind chooses physical pleasure and at other times it seek spiritual pleasure. for example, physical pleasure could include sex with your spouse. this is not wrong so the flesh cannot be evil but it can commit evil. john 6:63 is saying what the flesh wants will not gain us anything spiritually. another example is going hunting. hunting does not gain us anything spiritually but it is not wrong either. when flesh is mentioned everyone always thinks the worst.



the scripture you listed are contrary to what you just stated when you said, "The scriptures say that through one mans sin, sin entered into the world and with it death. In God's eyes the flesh is evil because it refuses to believe what He (God) says. In another place it says that flesh and blood will never enter into heaven. Could it be that flesh and blood is evil in the sight of God?" if blood is bad then heb 9:22 where Jesus shed his blood is bad too. if you were wrong about the blood it is possible you are wrong about the flesh too.

God bless

So you think that the blood of Jesus is the same as yours, right??

There is a reason that Jesus' Father was the Holy Spirit. Jesus' blood was perfect and sinless. If it wasn't then it could never have paid for the sins of mankind. Nor does the scripture say that Jesus' blood went to heaven. It was shed on the cross. But I see that you are determined to negate everything I say.

The sin that has always condemned mankind is the sin of unbelief; to not believe what God says. When the children of Israel were about to enter into their promised land God said to go into the land and He (GOD) would drive the people there out. Did they believe God??? What did God say would happen if Adam and Eve ate of the forbidden tree? God said they would surely die. What did Satan say to Eve? You will not surely die. Which one did Eve believe, God or Satan??

Under the gospel given to Paul what was the message he was to give to the world? It was grace a free gift. But what does Satan say? Not grace alone but grace that you have to work for by keeping the Law (which no man can keep).

I, personally will believe the message Jesus gave to Paul for everyone in this age of grace. I will never believe Satan's message of grace with law that makes grace void. As Paul said, if a person seeks to be saved by keeping the law then that person has refused grace and must keep the whole Law (which no man can keep). In other words that person is going to Hell.

 

[7angels]

So you think that the blood of Jesus is the same as yours, right??

There is a reason that Jesus' Father was the Holy Spirit. Jesus' blood was perfect and sinless. If it wasn't then it could never have paid for the sins of mankind. Nor does the scripture say that Jesus' blood went to heaven. It was shed on the cross. But I see that you are determined to negate everything I say.

The sin that has always condemned mankind is the sin of unbelief; to not believe what God says. When the children of Israel were about to enter into their promised land God said to go into the land and He (GOD) would drive the people there out. Did they believe God??? What did God say would happen if Adam and Eve ate of the forbidden tree? God said they would surely die. What did Satan say to Eve? You will not surely die. Which one did Eve believe, God or Satan??

Under the gospel given to Paul what was the message he was to give to the world? It was grace a free gift. But what does Satan say? Not grace alone but grace that you have to work for by keeping the Law (which no man can keep).

I, personally will believe the message Jesus gave to Paul for everyone in this age of grace. I will never believe Satan's message of grace with law that makes grace void. As Paul said, if a person seeks to be saved by keeping the law then that person has refused grace and must keep the whole Law (which no man can keep). In other words that person is going to Hell.

you think i am determined to negate everything you say but i am trying to show you that what you are thinking and what you are putting on paper is different. even now you say Jesus' father was the Holy Spirit. nowhere in the Word does it say this. depending on whether or not you actually believe it or not will determine how a person responds. if you are putting down things differently then what you meant to is what causes confusion and thus heated arguments. so i advise you to reread your words when you are done writing and to check what you wrote when someone replies to you to make sure you wrote actually said what you meant to say.

btw the promises of the bible are not free. each one of them require something from us. just as salvation is not given to anyone until rom 10:9 has been satisfied so too is grace not given free until certain conditions are met. just because you are saved does not guarantee you grace. just read the Word and study it to see if what i tell you is wrong.

God bless

 

[H. Richard]

you think i am determined to negate everything you say but i am trying to show you that what you are thinking and what you are putting on paper is different. even now you say Jesus' father was the Holy Spirit. nowhere in the Word does it say this. depending on whether or not you actually believe it or not will determine how a person responds. if you are putting down things differently then what you meant to is what causes confusion and thus heated arguments. so i advise you to reread your words when you are done writing and to check what you wrote when someone replies to you to make sure you wrote actually said what you meant to say.

btw the promises of the bible are not free. each one of them require something from us. just as salvation is not given to anyone until rom 10:9 has been satisfied so too is grace not given free until certain conditions are met. just because you are saved does not guarantee you grace. just read the Word and study it to see if what i tell you is wrong.

God bless

You said, "even now you say Jesus' father was the Holy Spirit. nowhere in the Word does it say this"

The following scriptures shows that you are wrong and I am right. But just as you can not see the word "hidden in God" (Eph 3:9-10) you must likely will try to rationalize that it doesn't mean what it says.

Matt 1:18
Christ Born of Mary (Luke 2:1-7) 18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: After His mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit.
NKJV

To believe that Jesus had a human father is to believe that He was just a man and if you believe that you will die in your sins. Jesus was God reconciling mankind to Himself. I suggest that you are not as versed in the scriptures as well as you think you are.

btw, The only thing that is required for salvation under God's grace is to believe in it, no works of man required.

 

[7angels]

You said, "even now you say Jesus' father was the Holy Spirit. nowhere in the Word does it say this"

The following scriptures shows that you are wrong and I am right. But just as you can not see the word "hidden in God" (Eph 3:9-10) you must likely will try to rationalize that it doesn't mean what it says.

Matt 1:18
Christ Born of Mary (Luke 2:1-7) 18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: After His mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit.
NKJV

To believe that Jesus had a human father is to believe that He was just a man and if you believe that you will die in your sins. Jesus was God reconciling mankind to Himself. I suggest that you are not as versed in the scriptures as well as you think you are.

btw, The only thing that is required for salvation under God's grace is to believe in it, no works of man required.

if what you say is correct then we all should know that there should be no contradictions because God is not a God of confusion but of order. how can the Holy Spirit be the Father when the trinity is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit? the trinity is 3 in one and not 2 in one. how about matt 3:16-17. there are too many contradictions for the Holy Spirit to be the Father.

God bless

 

[mjrhealth]

God is the father, the Holy spirirt is teh "seed" of God which wnhen sown in us springs life, just as when a man impregnates a women.

As for

10:9 has been satisfied so too is grace not given free until certain conditions are met

If you have to pay for something it is not a gift and cetainly not free, that foolish state ment is a contradiction in itself. As we nattered on beofre, it about faith, believing God, It is only with faith that we can please God.

Heb_11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him

 

[7angels]

find any promise in the bible and i will show you a condition that has to be met

 

[mjrhealth]

find any promise in the bible and i will show you a condition that has to be met

do you stone chritsians. Saul did and he was just doing what he thought was right because he read the OT and assumed it was a good thing to do, I dont see you stoning adulteres?? Should I?? its in the bible. The one condition that chritsans seem to fail to meet the most, is "faith", always trying to earn there salvation by works and not by faith, as if God is an indian giver???

 

[H. Richard]

if what you say is correct then we all should know that there should be no contradictions because God is not a God of confusion but of order. how can the Holy Spirit be the Father when the trinity is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit? the trinity is 3 in one and not 2 in one. how about matt 3:16-17. there are too many contradictions for the Holy Spirit to be the Father.

God bless

I have a question for you?

Since you refuse to believe that It was the work of the Holy Spirit for Mary to be with child then just who do you think was Jesus earthly father?

 

[7angels]

I have a question for you?

Since you refuse to believe that It was the work of the Holy Spirit for Mary to be with child then just who do you think was Jesus earthly father?

easy question. joseph was Jesus' father here on earth.

do you stone chritsians. Saul did and he was just doing what he thought was right because he read the OT and assumed it was a good thing to do, I dont see you stoning adulteres?? Should I?? its in the bible. The one condition that chritsans seem to fail to meet the most, is "faith", always trying to earn there salvation by works and not by faith, as if God is an indian giver???

i am not sure what you are pointing towards, but i believe the answer is more complicated then just yes or no. do i believe adultery deserves death? yes i do, but as Jesus says let those that have no sin cast the first stone. since we are all trespassers of the law also, and deserve death also shouldn't we be merciful to others too?

God bless

 

[H. Richard]

easy question. joseph was Jesus' father here on earth.

Since you believe Jesus had a humanly conceived child you will die in your sins because only God could pay for the sins of the whole world.

 

[H. Richard]

Since you believe Jesus had a humanly conceived child you will die in your sins because only God could pay for the sins of the whole world.

This should read; "Since you believe Jesus was a humanly conceived child you will die in your sins because only God could pay for the sins of the whole world.

 

[H. Richard]

find any promise in the bible and i will show you a condition that has to be met

Show me the condition

Eph 1:7-8
7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace
8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence,
NKJV

Col 1:13-17
13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love,
14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
NKJV

 

[7angels]

Show me the condition

Eph 1:7-8
7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace
8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence,
NKJV

Col 1:13-17
13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love,
14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
NKJV

eph 1:7-8 is not a promise but a guarantee.

col 1:13-17 again this is a guarantee and fact but it is not a promise.

This should read; "Since you believe Jesus was a humanly conceived child you will die in your sins because only God could pay for the sins of the whole world.

i would very much want to know how you came up with what you posted. if what you say is true then there was no need for Jesus to be born human. for Jesus was tempted as we were and remained sinless but it was not because He was God. btw Jesus was not the only person born from a virgin according to scripture. But Jesus was the only one that remained sinless.

God bless