Two Ways of thinking about OSAS

[StanJ]

Apostle Paul...shall we sin more so grace abounds...God forbid...sin is according to Apostle John "transgression of God's law" 1st John...so if you do not follow God's commandments, what does John call you? Do you think those who transgress God's Holy law, the ten commandments will inherit the eternal kingdom?

Need to find a translation that's not using 400 year old Elizabethan English, because obviously you don't understand 400 year old Elizabethan English and keep misinterpreting the Bible.

 

[heretoeternity]

Do you understand it Stan? Do you understand todays official english? Seems questionable don't you think!

 

[T1m0thy]

It was more a public comment than private. Though myself and others are deliberately accused of teaching otherwise, it is my firm belief that anyone who thinks they can earn salvation essentially believes that 2,000 years ago, God looked down on Earth and said, "This sacrifice of My Son to satisfy the heavenly law's demand for justice for its violation seems to Me as I gaze down upon Calvary as wholly adequate............
...........but I need a little something more."

In commenting on why Jesus' first advent passed wholly unnoticed by the people to whom He had come, one inspired writer wrote in that Christian classic:

"The principle that man can save himself by his own works lay at the foundation of every heathen religion; it had now become the principle of the Jewish religion." (Desire of Ages, pp. 35)

Works are the evidence that we have been saved, not the means by which we obtain salvation, but since a lack of an obedient life exposes many for who they are, the Bible is re-interpreted to teach OSAS (so that sin may be retained in one hand along with a punched ticket to heaven in the other).

I don't find it that hard to except. Once one is saved/salvation they are a new person in Christ, they put off their old self and are lead in righteousness and good works by His Holy Spirit. One is bound to accidentally stumble (for no man is perfect but Christ in the flesh), recognize and repent, becoming more Christ like has they grow in Him. Should one not have these qualities, then your above scripture would apply, If one continues to knowingly sin they have not been saved. One of the spiritual gifts given to the Body of Christ is "discerning of spirits"

 

[heretoeternity]

I don't find it that hard to except. Once one is saved/salvation they are a new person in Christ, they put off their old self and are lead in righteousness and good works by His Holy Spirit. One is bound to accidentally stumble (for no man is perfect but Christ in the flesh), recognize and repent, becoming more Christ like has they grow in Him. Should one not have these qualities, then your above scripture would apply, If one continues to knowingly sin they have not been saved. One of the spiritual gifts given to the Body of Christ is "discerning of spirits"





How can you say you are a new person, or a new creation is you don't repent? You cannot...only repentance and turning away from sin is the way to repent/..
What is sin? Transgression of God's law the ten commandments as per 1st John.

 

[T1m0thy]

I don't find it that hard to except. Once one is saved/salvation they are a new person in Christ, they put off their old self and are lead in righteousness and good works by His Holy Spirit. One is bound to accidentally stumble (for no man is perfect but Christ in the flesh), recognize and repent, becoming more Christ like has they grow in Him. Should one not have these qualities, then your above scripture would apply, If one continues to knowingly sin they have not been saved. One of the spiritual gifts given to the Body of Christ is "discerning of spirits"





How can you say you are a new person, or a new creation is you don't repent? You cannot...only repentance and turning away from sin is the way to repent/..
What is sin? Transgression of God's law the ten commandments as per 1st JoHN

Becoming a new person and putting off the old self will include repentance, surrender, love, faith, plus. Sorry I thought this was obvious but should of spelled it out. Oh and it's not just transgression of God's law the ten commandments, there are plenty of other sins.

 

[heretoeternity]

What does the apostle John say? You refuse to read it? Obviously you do not want to know the truth.....1st John..read it, and learn!

 

[mjrhealth]

Joh_6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

So believe Him.

Everythinhg else is you trying to earn your salvation by your works.

 

[heretoeternity]

You are wrong again.....you cannot earn salvation even as hard as you try...you can go to your sheepsheds (churches) on sunday and sing and wave your arms around, and jump up and down and whatever you do there for an hour and think it pleases God? lol.....you cannot earn your way with that kind of conduct....As Apostle John said in 1st John 'this is the love of God, that you keep His commandments"
NO, mjr forgiveness of sins is a gift from God by His grace, and because of that we have to repent and sin no more, or at least try and sin no more. As John said in 1st John "sin is transgression of the God's law" and Paul said in Romans "do we sin more so grace abounds? God forbid.
So, even you should understand once God saves you by His grace, you should stop sinning...if you continue in the old lifestyle you are not saved.

 

[justaname]

You are wrong again.....you cannot earn salvation even as hard as you try...you can go to your sheepsheds (churches) on sunday and sing and wave your arms around, and jump up and down and whatever you do there for an hour and think it pleases God? lol.....you cannot earn your way with that kind of conduct....As Apostle John said in 1st John 'this is the love of God, that you keep His commandments"
NO, mjr forgiveness of sins is a gift from God by His grace, and because of that we have to repent and sin no more, or at least try and sin no more. As John said in 1st John "sin is transgression of the God's law" and Paul said in Romans "do we sin more so grace abounds? God forbid.
So, even you should understand once God saves you by His grace, you should stop sinning...if you continue in the old lifestyle you are not saved.

So at what point did you become sinless in your lifestyle? Lets keep in mind all of your actions, words, thoughts, and attitudes. When did you become perfect?

Let me be clear as to my position. None are perfect, yet all are called to perfection, and the Ten Commandments have absolutely nothing to do with the Christian. Our perfection is found in our submission to Christ and our trust in Him to perfect us, not in our own ability to perfect ourselves. Yes we are to repent from sin, but sin will not be the undoing of the child of God. 1 John 3:9 tells us: No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.


Here is the greek on the 1 John 3:4 passage you keep quoting:

4 Πᾶς ὁ ποιῶν τὴν ἁμαρτίαν καὶ τὴν ἀνομίαν ποιεῖ,* καὶ ἡ ἁμαρτία ἐστὶν ἡ ἀνομία.
Aland, K., Aland, B., Karavidopoulos, J., Martini, C. M., & Metzger, B. M. (2012). Novum Testamentum Graece (28th Edition, 1 Jn 3:4). Stuttgart: Deutsche Bibelgesellschaft.

This is a better translation...

4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.
New American Standard Bible: 1995 update. (1995). (1 Jn 3:4). LaHabra, CA: The Lockman Foundation.

Here is another view:
[SIZE=12pt]3:4 [/SIZE]Πᾶς ὁ ποιῶν τὴν ἁμαρτίαν καὶ τὴν ἀνομίαν ποιεῖ, καὶ ἡ ἁμαρτία ἐστὶν ἡ ἀνομία.
[SIZE=12pt]3:4 Everyone who is doing (present, active, participle, [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]ποιέω[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]) sin also is doing (present, active, indicative, [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]ποιέω[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]) iniquity, in addition sin is iniquity,[/SIZE]

 

[StanJ]

Do you understand it Stan? Do you understand todays official english? Seems questionable don't you think!

Yes I do, I have no problem understanding modern vernacular which you shouldn't either. My point is that you do not properly interpolate the Elizabethan English of the KJV and thus arrive at erroneous conclusions. You take 400 year old English and try to understand it with modern day English understanding that doesn't work which is obvious by how you state your view of the KJV English. Try using the NET, or the NIV, or the NLT, or the ISV. Read them all in parallel and you'll have a much better understanding of what the Greek and Hebrew text are conveying then you will by using the singular KJV.

 

[heretoeternity]

Stan, it is obviously you are confused by all the knowledge you are trying to portray with your self adulation, and extremely high opinion of yourself...remember pride comes before a fall...
If you are so good with English try writing some.
In the meantime stick to the topic if you can.

 

[mjrhealth]

In the meantime stick to the topic if you can.

YEs so lets keep the law out of this since it has nothing to do with teh topic. does it??

 

[H. Richard]

Yes I do, I have no problem understanding modern vernacular which you shouldn't either. My point is that you do not properly interpolate the Elizabethan English of the KJV and thus arrive at erroneous conclusions. You take 400 year old English and try to understand it with modern day English understanding that doesn't work which is obvious by how you state your view of the KJV English. Try using the NET, or the NIV, or the NLT, or the ISV. Read them all in parallel and you'll have a much better understanding of what the Greek and Hebrew text are conveying then you will by using the singular KJV.

I study the NKJV and have found no problems with it.

 

[Phoneman777]

So at what point did you become sinless in your lifestyle? Lets keep in mind all of your actions, words, thoughts, and attitudes. When did you become perfect?

Let me be clear as to my position. None are perfect, yet all are called to perfection, and the Ten Commandments have absolutely nothing to do with the Christian. Our perfection is found in our submission to Christ and our trust in Him to perfect us, not in our own ability to perfect ourselves. Yes we are to repent from sin, but sin will not be the undoing of the child of God. 1 John 3:9 tells us: No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.


Here is the greek on the 1 John 3:4 passage you keep quoting:

4 Πᾶς ὁ ποιῶν τὴν ἁμαρτίαν καὶ τὴν ἀνομίαν ποιεῖ,* καὶ ἡ ἁμαρτία ἐστὶν ἡ ἀνομία.
Aland, K., Aland, B., Karavidopoulos, J., Martini, C. M., & Metzger, B. M. (2012). Novum Testamentum Graece (28th Edition, 1 Jn 3:4). Stuttgart: Deutsche Bibelgesellschaft.

This is a better translation...

4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.
New American Standard Bible: 1995 update. (1995). (1 Jn 3:4). LaHabra, CA: The Lockman Foundation.

Here is another view:
[SIZE=12pt]3:4 [/SIZE]Πᾶς ὁ ποιῶν τὴν ἁμαρτίαν καὶ τὴν ἀνομίαν ποιεῖ, καὶ ἡ ἁμαρτία ἐστὶν ἡ ἀνομία.
[SIZE=12pt]3:4 Everyone who is doing (present, active, participle, [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]ποιέω[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]) sin also is doing (present, active, indicative, [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]ποιέω[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]) iniquity, in addition sin is iniquity,[/SIZE]

Justaname, why do you not understand the simple yet profound truth of Scripture that the man who, by faith in both the forgiveness and overcoming power of Christ, strives to attain the perfection of Christ is reckoned perfect by Christ while he is yet being perfected in Christ? It's called "imputed and imparted righteousness".

"Imputed Righteousness" - the instantaneous act of our Savior God to make righteous in His sight those who by faith trust the Savior's perfect sacrifice for salvation, though they are yet imperfect.

"Imparted Righteousness" - Our Lord God's sanctifying power to transform those helplessly disobedient to their Lord God into empowered obedient servants of our Lord God.

The above is the only interpretation of Scripture that harmonizes all texts which deal with Law and Grace. Sadly, the Lake of Fire will be filled with those who attempted to take hold a Savior God alone while in the other hand rejected their Lord God that they might take hold of the pleasures of sin, while those who confessed and forsook their sin and took hold of with both hands their Savior God and their Lord God stand by and watch the conflagration.

 

[heretoeternity]

YEs so lets keep the law out of this since it has nothing to do with teh topic. does it??

God's law, the ten commandments are part of the Salvation process, as you should know by now...as Jesus said in Matthew 7....depart from me I never knew you, you who practice lawlessness".....so if you do not repent and follow God's law, get accustomed to hearing these words..

 

[mjrhealth]

God's law, the ten commandments are part of the Salvation process, as you should know by now...as Jesus said in Matthew 7....depart from me I never knew you, you who practice lawlessness".....so if you do not repent and follow God's law, get accustomed to hearing these words..

Well you have no idea of what Christ did for you, the sacrifices for teh law have being done away with, the only blood to be spiiled for those who keep the law, is theirs, Ie your own so you are condeming yourself by forsaking grace. But you have set the law in your heart and its a hard thing to change

 

[heretoeternity]

Well you have no idea of what Christ did for you, the sacrifices for teh law have being done away with, the only blood to be spiiled for those who keep the law, is theirs, Ie your own so you are condeming yourself by forsaking grace. But you have set the law in your heart and its a hard thing to change





You are the one who does NOT realize what Jesus did for you.....Jesus did not come and die on the cross so you could go on sinning...He provided a way for forgiveness of sins, and dwell in Him..this did not involve a person to go on sinning and carry on their old lifestyle...do you not realize you are supposed to be a new Creation in Christ?? Obviously you do not....As Apostle Paul said if you continue to sin after accepting Jesus, there is no sacrifice left for you, do you realize that? read Hebrews 10....Apostle John in 1st John says "sin is transgression of God's law"......
Are you now able to connect the dots, should be simple enough even you can understand.

 

[mjrhealth]

Jesus did not come and die on the cross so you could go on sinning.

No HE died so you would not be condemned for your sins,. something you have not accepted that is why you insist on the law that condemns you daily and for which no payment remains, IE Jesus didnt die for you to keep the law that was never given to you, even the Jews are "not" supposed to be under teh law but they insist in their old ways, tha tis why Grace and teh law are imcompatible.

Gal_2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Rom_5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

Joh_1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

But you would rather teh law than grace, and you must pay the price for you have rejected Christs sacrifice so you can earn your righteousness by the law, which NO MAN is able not even you no matter how much you boast.

 

[heretoeternity]

So you continue to cut and paste a bunch of irrelevant verse, which do not pertain to the topic...okay the satanic influence has good hold on you...how about reading some of the verses which teach you the truth, or are you blind to them? Obviously so.....Paul in Romans do we sin more so grace abounds? God forbid." Do we make void the law through faith. God forbid. We establish the law" and in Romans "it is doers of the law that are justified not hearers".....James 2 "faith without works is dead" and 1st John "for this is the love of God, that you keep His commandments and they are not grievous"...
Do you understand what those verses mean. Obviously NOT...

 

[mjrhealth]

So you continue to cut and paste a bunch of irrelevant verse, which do not pertain to the topic...okay the satanic influence has good hold on you...how about reading some of the verses which teach you the truth, or are you blind to them? Obviously so.....Paul in Romans do we sin more so grace abounds? God forbid." Do we make void the law through faith. God forbid. We establish the law" and in Romans "it is doers of the law that are justified not hearers".....James 2 "faith without works is dead" and 1st John "for this is the love of God, that you keep His commandments and they are not grievous"...
Do you understand what those verses mean. Obviously NOT...

I guess you are the reason why the bible says,

Rom_3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

And you choose to remain in your guilt.

Rom_3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

So stop getting so angry it serves you not. Jesus came to set you free, your guilt is in all your posts.