Two Ways of thinking about OSAS

[Phoneman777]

Well you didn't respond to anyof my questions either. But that's ok because they were rhetorical. They actually did answer Joyce's question by exposing it as rediculous.

Besides, I don't have children so the question doesn't apply to me.

Hebrews 6:6 is not about "not sinning". Its about turning away from God and the grace he gives. Aside from Hebrews 10:26 it is the one verse most taken out of context in the Bible.

Please explain the Unmerciful Servant, which describes a man who was condemned for an impossible debt, asked and received forgiveness, but wound up condemned again and responsible to repay the full amount of the original debt because he refused to allow his character to be brought into harmony with the character of his lord.

 

[mjrhealth]

And how PM do you propose to evangelsise. Come to Christ for he can save you, i dont actually believe He can becuase we are so bad, but come anyway. Is that your message to teh unsaved, seems you are unsaved is that the case. What did Christ die for, may I ask, to be mocked and made a laughing stock by those who walk in unbelief. You just wont take things to Christ will you.??

 

[Phoneman777]

And how PM do you propose to evangelsise. Come to Christ for he can save you, i dont actually believe He can becuase we are so bad, but come anyway. Is that your message to teh unsaved, seems you are unsaved is that the case. What did Christ die for, may I ask, to be mocked and made a laughing stock by those who walk in unbelief. You just wont take things to Christ will you.??

You claim I need to come to Jesus to be saved. I agree. Now, I claim you need to stay with Jesus to remain saved. But, OSAS refuses this because it is always looking over the shoulder at the delights of sin, just as Lot's wife looked back in desire for the same. Remember Lot's wife, brother, lest you wind up lost after having escaped the pollution of Sodom and Gomorrah. Peter says the same thing about those who "after having escaped the pollutions of the world" became entangled again therein. Amazing harmony of the OT and NT.

 

[mjrhealth]

But, OSAS refuses this because it is always looking over the shoulder at the delights of sin

See but this is the whole issue is it not. OSAS believes in teh power og God to salvation.

this bit

1Co_1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God

Where you consistently deny His power and speak of only the power of the flesh to deny god.

All you speak of is sin, all you speak of is teh power and teh hold it has on you, how are you going to be saved if your revel after your flesh and deny His power to save you. One who is in Christ is dead to sin Born of God and living after the Spirit. What do you think born again means.

Rom_8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit

and that is why you feel so condemend. Still you wont Give God a chance.

Rom_8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

Your choosing not His

Rom_8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

 

[StanJ]

2 Timothy 2:18 clearly shows that a man can depart from the faith. Clearly that refutes OSAS.

 

[H. Richard]

2 Timothy 2:18 clearly shows that a man can depart from the faith. Clearly that refutes OSAS.

I'll let you worry about it but as for me I will trust in Jesus' promise that He will never turn me away.

As for OSAS I think about these scriptures;

1 Cor 3:10-15
10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it.
11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,
13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is.
14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward.
15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
NKJV

 

[mjrhealth]

I'll let you worry about it but as for me I will trust in Jesus' promise that He will never turn me away.

Amen. And that is a fact

 

[StanJ]

I'll let you worry about it but as for me I will trust in Jesus' promise that He will never turn me away.

That's a cop-out and don't pawn your responsibility off on me, that directive is for all believers, so if you refuse to acknowledge it and accept it then the repercussions are on you, not me.

As for OSAS I think about these scriptures;
1 Cor 3:10-15
10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it.
11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,
13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is.
14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward.15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
NKJV

Well that section of scripture is about works and whether or not they're founded upon Jesus or they're founded upon our own abilities. It has nothing at all to do with eternal security. You really need to read the Bible with a sense of understanding as to what the context is.

 

[StanJ]

Amen. And that is a fact

Another indication that you put your own inner monologue ahead of what God's written word tells us. In the end we will all be held accountable for our refusal to accept what God's written word clearly says.

 

[H. Richard]

That's a cop-out and don't pawn your responsibility off on me, that directive is for all believers, so if you refuse to acknowledge it and accept it then the repercussions are on you, not me.

Well that section of scripture is about works and whether or not they're founded upon Jesus or they're founded upon our own abilities. It has nothing at all to do with eternal security. You really need to read the Bible with a sense of understanding as to what the context is.

I really wish people would read a scripture for what it says and believe it.

I, personally, believe that God has made a plan of salvation that is completely in His hands to accomplish and a person would do well to praise Him for it and trust in it. Do people really believe that the God who created the universe would make a plan of salvation that can only be accomplished by a person making the flesh perfect by his own will?

It amazes me that people who are wrapped up in a salvation that depend on the works of sinful flesh get on forums advocating works when they know that they sin just like every one else.

As I see it those that think they save themselves by their works are what the scriptures call self-righteous. They claim that if they sin they can repent but when a person can't see their sins there is nothing for them to repent of. On the other hand those that know they live in sinful flesh trust in the free gift that God has given them and praise Him for it.

Luke 7:47-48
47 Therefore I say to you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven, for she loved much. But to whom little is forgiven, the same loves little."
48 Then He said to her, "Your sins are forgiven."
NKJV

Those who know they are forgiven much will love much.

 

[H. Richard]

That's a cop-out and don't pawn your responsibility off on me, that directive is for all believers, so if you refuse to acknowledge it and accept it then the repercussions are on you, not me.

Why do you insist on making this discussion personal. I think I understand why you, and others, do it. What we see in the scriptures is that the man of God is persecuted by the religious.

Jesus was persecuted and killed, Stephens was persecuted and killed, Paul was persecuted and those that did it were the religious. It is the same story today where some are persecuted by those with a different belief.

Therefore let us do as the scriptures tell us, Jesus is the judge of His followers.

 

[StanJ]

I really wish people would read a scripture for what it says and believe it.

I feel the same way. The fact is, I don't whine about it publicly. I just defend God's word and show how it should properly be taken and used. That's what II Timothy 2:15 is all about.

I, personally, believe that God has made a plan of salvation that is completely in His hands to accomplish and a person would do well to praise Him for it and trust in it. Do people really believe that the God who created the universe would make a plan of salvation that can only be accomplished by a person making the flesh perfect by his own will?

Good, you believe in the Plan of Salvation. Now do you know what that plan is? You really believe that unbelievers are supposed to praise him and trust in it? I have no idea what you're actually talking about or referring to here but do you not believe the Bible when it says; Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. Matt 5:48

It amazes me that people who are wrapped up in a salvation that depend on the works of sinful flesh get on forums advocating works when they know that they sin just like every one else.

And it amazes me that when people are trying to make a point they speak in terms that are so broadly vague, that they mean nothing. Try being a little more specific please.

As I see it those that think they save themselves by their works are what the scriptures call self-righteous. They claim that if they sin they can repent but when a person can't see their sins there is nothing for them to repent of. On the other hand those that know they live in sinful flesh trust in the free gift that God has given them and praise Him for it.
Those who know they are forgiven much will love much.

I haven't encountered one person on CB that has stated they can save themselves. Maybe you can direct me to that post? We repent of our sinful lifestyle and our past sins when we are saved and confess Jesus as our savior. After that we must constantly recognized sin in our life and confess it. That means to agree with God that what we have done is of a sinful nature. You don't need to ask for forgiveness because it was already forgiven when we accepted Jesus. That is salvation 101 and I'm surprised you don't really understand it yet.

What Jesus said in Luke 7 was; Therefore I say to you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven, for she loved much. But to whom little is forgiven, the same loves little.”

 

[StanJ]

Why do you insist on making this discussion personal. I think I understand why you, and others, do it. What we see in the scriptures is that the man of God is persecuted by the religious.

Because you addressed me personally with the cop-out, that's why. Are you not willing to be held accountable for your own words? So now you're comparing yourself to Jesus here and everybody else is religious because they don't agree with you? That's mighty supercilious of you.

Jesus was persecuted and killed, Stephens was persecuted and killed, Paul was persecuted and those that did it were the religious. It is the same story today where some are persecuted by those with a different belief.
Therefore let us do as the scriptures tell us, Jesus is the judge of His followers.

Yes they indeed all work and as soon as you can prove that you are of the same ilk as they were then all of this is nothing more than boastful posturing. So it's amazing how people use this tactic to try and protect their point of view from criticism because they obviously can't defend their point of view. I suggest you don't express your opinions if you're not willing to defend them because after all this is a discussion forum.

By their fruit you will recognize them Matt: 7:16

 

[H. Richard]

No. 1 >I feel the same way. The fact is, I don't whine about it publicly. I just defend God's word and show how it should properly be taken and used. That's what II Timothy 2:15 is all about.

No. 2 > Good, you believe in the Plan of Salvation. Now do you know what that plan is? You really believe that unbelievers are supposed to praise him and trust in it? I have no idea what you're actually talking about or referring to here but do you not believe the Bible when it says; Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. Matt 5:48

No.3 >And it amazes me that when people are trying to make a point they speak in terms that are so broadly vague, that they mean nothing. Try being a little more specific please.

No.4 >I haven't encountered one person on CB that has stated they can save themselves. Maybe you can direct me to that post? We repent of our sinful lifestyle and our past sins when we are saved and confess Jesus as our savior. After that we must constantly recognized sin in our life and confess it. That means to agree with God that what we have done is of a sinful nature. You don't need to ask for forgiveness because it was already forgiven when we accepted Jesus. That is salvation 101 and I'm surprised you don't really understand it yet.

No. 5 >What Jesus said in Luke 7 was; Therefore I say to you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven, for she loved much. But to whom little is forgiven, the same loves little.”

No.1 God's word does not need defending by you. It says what it says. I could think up a snappy reply but I am above that.

No.2 You take what Jesus said to the Jews who were under the law and use it to those under grace. Very good way to pervert the grace gospel. Only the believers will praise him and trust in His plan of salvation.

No. 3 I am not here to please you. You are not my father or my mother.

No.4 If you are saying we must do works for salvation or to keep salvation then you are saying a person has to save themselves by what they do. With all of your intellect you should be able to see that..

No. 5 But to whom little is forgiven, the same loves little.” since this is true then then those who have been forgiven much must love much. Sorry you did not see that

 

[StanJ]

No.1 God's word does not need defending by you. It says what it says. I could think up a snappy reply but I am above that.

It sure does, especially when people like you misrepresent it. 1 Peter 3:15

No.2 You take what Jesus said to the Jews who were under the law and use it to those under grace. Very good way to pervert the grace gospel. Only the believers will praise him and trust in His plan of salvation.

So your answer is no then?

No. 3 I am not here to please you. You are not my father or my mother.

Exactly how old are you? Would you say the same thing to your father if he ask you a personal question?

No.4 If you are saying we must do works for salvation or to keep salvation then you are saying a person has to save themselves by what they do. With all of your intellect you should be able to see that..

All you've done here is avoid the question and just confirm that you don't understand the issue. Sounds like you have a piece of wood on your shoulder that's interfering with your rationale and reasoning.

No. 5 But to whom little is forgiven, the same loves little.” since this is true then then those who have been forgiven much must love much. Sorry you did not see that

I actually quoted that whole scripture, so it's not my eyesight, it's yours. Maybe you should do something about that, like learn how to read with comprehension.

 

[OzSpen]

No.1 God's word does not need defending by you. It says what it says. I could think up a snappy reply but I am above that.

Richard,

It's too bad you don't live in a post-Christian society where Scripture is treated as garbage and discarded as mythology by those who are religionists. Then you might have a different view of Scripture and 1 Peter 3:15 (ESV). That's one of the reasons why historian, exegete and evangelical Anglican in the Sydney, Australia, diocese wrote, Jesus and the Logic of History (IVP Academic 2001).

If there was no need to defend God's Word, professor of NT at Denver Seminary was up the creek when he wrote, The Historical Reliability of the Gospels (IVP 2007).

What about the OT? Can it be trusted? See K A KItchen, On the Reliability of the Old Testament (Eerdmans 2003).

All of these publications are responding to the need to defend God's Word in an increasing secular age and to put 1 Peter 3:15 (ESV) into practice. See also, 'Can you trust the Bible?' Vishal Mangalwadi has written a magnificent expose of The Book That Made Your World: How the Bible Created the Soul of Western Civilization (Thomas Nelson 2011).

I think it's time for you to wake up to the challenge of giving the reason for the hope that we have in Jesus because all that we know about him is revealed in the Bible that can be trusted. It's time for giving reasons why the Book can be regarded as being a trustworthy document.

It will take the Holy Spirit's work to convert people through the message proclaimed, based on this reliable revelation of God. However, it is slack for Christians to ignore the need to be equipped with an apologetic involving an aspect of bibliology.

Oz

 

[H. Richard]

Richard,

It's too bad you don't live in a post-Christian society where Scripture is treated as garbage and discarded as mythology by those who are religionists. Then you might have a different view of Scripture and 1 Peter 3:15 (ESV). That's one of the reasons why historian, exegete and evangelical Anglican in the Sydney, Australia, diocese wrote, Jesus and the Logic of History (IVP Academic 2001).

If there was no need to defend God's Word, professor of NT at Denver Seminary was up the creek when he wrote, The Historical Reliability of the Gospels (IVP 2007).

What about the OT? Can it be trusted? See K A KItchen, On the Reliability of the Old Testament (Eerdmans 2003).

All of these publications are responding to the need to defend God's Word in an increasing secular age and to put 1 Peter 3:15 (ESV) into practice. See also, 'Can you trust the Bible?' Vishal Mangalwadi has written a magnificent expose of The Book That Made Your World: How the Bible Created the Soul of Western Civilization (Thomas Nelson 2011).

I think it's time for you to wake up to the challenge of giving the reason for the hope that we have in Jesus because all that we know about him is revealed in the Bible that can be trusted. It's time for giving reasons why the Book can be regarded as being a trustworthy document.

It will take the Holy Spirit's work to convert people through the message proclaimed, based on this reliable revelation of God. However, it is slack for Christians to ignore the need to be equipped with an apologetic involving an aspect of bibliology.

Oz

The scriptures teach me that if I trust in the ideas of men I am building my house on a foundation of sand. I will build my house on the foundation of God's words as written in the Bible. I will trust in the words that Jesus gave Paul for us. By the way it is the Holy Spirit that teaches the children of God, not man.

1 Cor 2:12-14
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.
13 These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
NKJV

2 Sam 22:31
31 As for God, His way is perfect; The word of the Lord is proven; He is a shield to all who trust in Him.
NKJV

1 Chron 5:20
20 And they were helped against them, and the Hagrites were delivered into their hand, and all who were with them, for they cried out to God in the battle. He heeded their prayer, because they put their trust in Him.
NKJV

Ps 2:12
12 Kiss the Son, lest He be angry, And you perish in the way, When His wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all those who put their trust in Him.
NKJV

Ps 5:11
11 But let all those rejoice who put their trust in You; Let them ever shout for joy, because You defend them; Let those also who love Your name Be joyful in You.
NKJV

Ps 17:7
7 Show Your marvelous lovingkindness by Your right hand, O You who save those who trust in You From those who rise up against them.
NKJV

Ps 18:30
30 As for God, His way is perfect; The word of the Lord is proven; He is a shield to all who trust in Him.
NKJV

Ps 37:40
40 And the Lord shall help them and deliver them; He shall deliver them from the wicked, And save them, Because they trust in Him.
NKJV

Trusting in a religion is not the same as trusting in Jesus.
.

 

[StanJ]

The scriptures teach me that if I trust in the ideas of men I am building my house on a foundation of sand. I will build my house on the foundation of God's words as written in the Bible. I will trust in the words that Jesus gave Paul for us. By the way it is the Holy Spirit that teaches the children of God, not man.

Then I will give you shepherds after my own heart, who will lead you with knowledge and understanding. Jer 3:15

So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up. Eph 4:11-12

 

[H. Richard]

Then I will give you shepherds after my own heart, who will lead you with knowledge and understanding. Jer 3:15

So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up. Eph 4:11-12

StanJ you show your ignorance of the scriptures when you take what was said to the people of Israel, who were under the law and apply to us under grace.

Yes, we have what was written in the O.T. (a record of God dealing with Israel) , the 4 Gospels and the first 7 chapters of Acts but all of these are directed to the Jews. The message was that Jesus was their Messiah and King. Stephens was stoned simply because he preached that Jesus was their Jewish Messiah and King. Peter's sermon was given to the Jews. Proof of this is that the Jews wanted to know what they could do to atone for killing their Messiah and King.

Jesus specifically gave Paul a different gospel that was under grace, not law, but you can't see it because you are blinded by the god of this world Think about it; since salvation under grace is free to all who will believe in it then how could Satan keep people to himself? The obvious answer; by making them refuse the gift and replace it with their own works in religions.

But I know you will not be able to hear any of this.

1 Cor 1:23-26
23 but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness,
24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26 For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called.
27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty;
28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are,
29 that no flesh should glory in His presence.
30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God — and righteousness and sanctification and redemption
31 that, as it is written, "He who glories, let him glory in the Lord."
NKJV

I give glory to the Lord, Who do you give it to?

 

[StanJ]

StanJ you show your ignorance of the scriptures when you take what was said to the people of Israel, who were under the law and apply to us under grace.

Yes, we have what was written in the O.T. (a record of God dealing with Israel) , the 4 Gospels and the first 7 chapters of Acts but all of these are directed to the Jews. The message was that Jesus was their Messiah and King. Stephens was stoned simply because he preached that Jesus was their Jewish Messiah and King. Peter's sermon was given to the Jews. Proof of this is that the Jews wanted to know what they could do to atone for killing their Messiah and King.

Jesus specifically gave Paul a different gospel that was under grace, not law, but you can't see it because you are blinded by the god of this world Think about it; since salvation under grace is free to all who will believe in it then how could Satan keep people to himself? The obvious answer; by making them refuse the gift and replace it with their own works in religions.

But I know you will not be able to hear any of this.

1 Cor 1:23-26
23 but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness,
24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26 For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called.
27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty;
28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are,
29 that no flesh should glory in His presence.
30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God — and righteousness and sanctification and redemption
31 that, as it is written, "He who glories, let him glory in the Lord."
NKJV
I give glory to the Lord, Who do you give it to?

The issue as you put it was teachers and God gave teachers under the old Covenant and under the New Covenant so the only ignorance it's being portrayed here is yours and not identifying what the actual issue is that you posted.
By the way I don't have to give God anything, he has it all including all the glory. If you want to give God anything, give him your respect and believe in what His written word tells us.