Typical questions people ask about the Olivet Discourse.

[CadyandZoe]

First, this has NOTHING to do with Jews, Israel or physical temple in 70AD. So Pretrists' answer to your questions are incorrect.

The Olivet Discourse was prophesied against the CHURCH before the Second Coming. Here's why:

1.) Why does Luke talk about armies while Mark and Matthew talk about the Abomination of Desolation?

Apostasy comes from a kingdom rising against the kingdom, there is famine, persecution, betrayal, hatred, etc., as in those signs. Indeed apostasy is Jerusalem compassed with armies. NOT physically, but SPIRITUALLY. What many people fail to realize is that the New Testament JErsualem "IS" the church, not a physical building in the Middle East. So what armies would encap against her and surround her but those soldiers SPIRITUALLY of Satan, just "as" they did at Christ's first advent (ie. the Pharisees, scribes, teachers, etc.). There were no literal/physical battles in Jersalem then, no literal armies then, and there were no literal/physical battles or armies against the Lord's house in the last day. It is a SPIRITIUAL warfare. For example:

Rev 20:8-9
(8) And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
(9) And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

The beloved city is spiritual Jersualem, the church! That is the encampment of the Saints. Not the Jews in the 1st century. The fight against abomination standing in the holy place. Again, it all depends upon how we define God's word, either "by" God's Word or by presumption in looking at physical nations, battles, families, and warfare as people here often are doing.

The point is the churches, are under attack by the ARMIES of Satan's ministers of unrighteousness since they bring apostasy and iniquities into the church. That is what the abomination of desolation is the mystery of iniquity itself. Not TItus and Roman army. Not an antichrist army from Europe. Not Gog and Magog army from Russia. But armies of false prophets and christs attack Church with lyings signs and wonders that deceive those who believe a lie.

2. What does Jesus mean by "the elect"?

The chosen Elects are those who are born-again Christians. The ones who can "see" the abomination of desolation for exactly what it is, unlike the unsaved professed Christians.

3. What does Jesus mean by "this generation?"

The generation of evil, made up of professed believers under the influence of Satan from Seth to the Second Coming. It will end when all things are fulfilled at the Second Coming. I have explained this in detail on other forums. Look it up.

CC: @Red Baker

This thread was about asking questions rather than answering them. But thank-you anyway for your thoughtful responses.

 

[rwb]

"This Generation" implies the "Generation" that will be "Eyewitnesses" of the Lord's 2nd coming as seen below, will you also deny through symbolic allegory that the "Literal" "Future" 2nd coming is seen below in bold red?

The generation alive to see the second coming is not "this generation" that shall not pass til all things are fulfilled.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Christ is speaking to His disciples calling them and all His disciples to follow "this generation" that will not pass before all things are fulfilled. How could they, because they shall endure forever. They won't pass away as Christ says heaven and earth shall, because they shall be kept safe in the arms of the Lord.

Those alive at the second coming of the Lord Christ, "they shall see", not "ye shall see", because only those alive at His coming will see with visible sight the second coming of Christ in the clouds of heaven.

Matthew 24:30 (KJV) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

 

[rwb]

We are talking about the NT, not the OT. The word used is Strongs number 3778 and it means this or that, not just one of the two words.

G3778
οὗτος, οὗτοι, αὕτη, αὕται
houtos houtoi hautē hautai
hoo'-tos, hoo'-toy, how'-tay, how'-tahee
Including the nominative masculine plural (second form), nominative feminine signular (third form), and the nominate feminine plural, (fourth form). From the article G3588 and G846; the he (she or it), that is, this or that (often with the article repeated): - he (it was that), hereof, it, she, such as, the same, these, they, this (man, same, woman), which, who.
Total KJV occurrences: 352


Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This G3778 generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

But "this generation" is not the same "they" that shall see the Son of man returning in the clouds. Some of "this generation", since it is referring to the "chosen generation" will be alive when the Lord returns and be some of "they" that shall see the return of Christ, because some disciples of Christ will survive Satan's little season to be caught up to meet the Lord in the air before the fire of God's wrath comes down to destroy this earth and every living thing upon it. They shall not pass away with the wicked, because they too belong to "this generation" the "chosen generation" that shall not pass til all things are fulfilled.

 

[rwb]

Apostasy comes from a kingdom rising against the kingdom, there is famine, persecution, betrayal, hatred, etc., as in those signs. Indeed apostasy is Jerusalem compassed with armies. NOT physically, but SPIRITUALLY. What many people fail to realize is that the New Testament JErsualem "IS" the church, not a physical building in the Middle East. So what armies would encap against her and surround her but those soldiers SPIRITUALLY of Satan, just "as" they did at Christ's first advent (ie. the Pharisees, scribes, teachers, etc.). There were no literal/physical battles in Jersalem then, no literal armies then, and there were no literal/physical battles or armies against the Lord's house in the last day. It is a SPIRITIUAL warfare.

Apostasy did not come to Israel though physical warfare. It came to Israel because the Jews turned away from the one true God to worship other gods and idols. The Jews had already become apostate and an abomination unto God long before the first advent of Christ coming to earth a man. It is because of spiritual idolatry and abominations that God sent the Roman Army to physically destroy them forever. The nation of Israel shall never again be a holy people unto God, except for the remnant according to election of grace who would hear the Gospel of the Kingdom of God preached and by grace through faith the remnant of them would believe in Christ for everlasting life. Only the remnant according to election of grace of Old and New Covenant are eternally saved from the physical nation of Israel.

Any Jew since the first century AD hearing the Gospel of the Kingdom of God preached will be among the innumerable multitude from every nation, tribe, kindred and tongue that shall be saved, and not of Israel of Old, but the "Israel of God" that Christ ushered in with His coming.

The literal, physical destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple that Christ told His disciples would come was not spiritual it was literal, and the words Christ spoke came true in 70 AD. The Roman Army is not what caused abomination in the holy place. Abomination in the holy place is something spiritually known/understood not visibly seen. The final abomination committed by the Jews that brough them to utter desolation and ruin was handing Christ over to Gentiles to be crucified. That's when Daniel speaks of abomination that makes desolate as the sacrifice, that is Christ being taken away.

That does not mean the prophetic words of Christ against the nation of Israel was not also foretold by Christ on the mount of Olives. His words of Israel's utter ruin would not be fulfilled for about thirty more years. Those first century Christian disciples of Christ that heeded His warning when they understood after His cross that Jerusalem and the Temple were no longer holy places to God were not killed by the army of Roman soldiers that physically made an end to a city that was no longer the spiritual representation of God on earth. They were in fact an abomination unto Him.

Rev 20:8-9
(8) And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
(9) And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

The beloved city is spiritual Jersualem, the church! That is the encampment of the Saints. Not the Jews in the 1st century. The fight against abomination standing in the holy place. Again, it all depends upon how we define God's word, either "by" God's Word or by presumption in looking at physical nations, battles, families, and warfare as people here often are doing.

The point is the churches, are under attack by the ARMIES of Satan's ministers of unrighteousness since they bring apostasy and iniquities into the church. That is what the abomination of desolation is the mystery of iniquity itself. Not TItus and Roman army. Not an antichrist army from Europe. Not Gog and Magog army from Russia. But armies of false prophets and christs attack Church with lyings signs and wonders that deceiThve those who believe a lie.

The beloved city since the first advent of Christ is Jerusalem from above, "Israel of God" that is both Jews of faith and Gentiles of faith together as one spiritual body of believers physically alive throughout the world. Rev 20:8-9 speaks of what shall come AFTER time, symbolized a thousand years has expired. During his little season, Satan will gather together Gog (antichrists) and Magog (antichristian parties) surrounding the holy people of God throughout the world, attempting one last time to keep the spiritual Kingdom of God from being completed. The battle that shall ensue then against the holy people of God, His Church, will bring physical death to some of the holy people of God, in the same way the physical army brought physical death to the city of Old. But Satan will not be the victor, because God will send fire down from heaven to devour them all. Just before the fire of God's wrath comes to all that is evil, His holy people will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air, then we shall be with Him forever.

To understand the Olivet Discourse, we cannot try to force the words Christ spoke into any one particular time. The words Christ speaks to His disciples, the Church on earth is for believers throughout redemptive history. This generation is not limited to the very end of time just before Christ returns again. This generation is the chosen generation that in spite of all the "great tribulation" that the world, flesh and Satan shall throw at God's chosen, elect people, we shall never pass away, because even physical death that may take our body of flesh cannot keep us from remaining a spiritual body of believers in the Kingdom of God in heaven.

 

[Truth7t7]

The generation alive to see the second coming is not "this generation" that shall not pass til all things are fulfilled.


Christ is speaking to His disciples calling them and all His disciples to follow "this generation" that will not pass before all things are fulfilled. How could they, because they shall endure forever. They won't pass away as Christ says heaven and earth shall, because they shall be kept safe in the arms of the Lord.

Those alive at the second coming of the Lord Christ, "they shall see", not "ye shall see", because only those alive at His coming will see with visible sight the second coming of Christ in the clouds of heaven.

Matthew 24:30 (KJV) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

The question was asked by the disciples and answered by Jesus regarding the (Second Coming) And (End Of This World) Future Events Unfulfilled

Matthew 24:3KJV
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

When did or will Daniel's Abomination of Desolation take place, when did or will those seen below flee Judea to the mountains?

Matthew 24:15-16KJV
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

When has or will this great tribulation take place seen below?

Will you claim its an ongoing continous tribulation over Millennia to make your reformed teaching work?

Matthew 24:21KJV
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

1.) What is near even at the doors? (The Second Coming) a Future Generation that will (See All These Things)

2.) "This Generation" are those that will be eyewitnesses of the future events in Matthew 24, that will culminate in the 2nd coming, 70AD played no part in fulfillment

(Ye Shall See) is Jesus speaking to the disciples as representative of the future church on earth that will be eyewitnesses and (This Generation) not (Your Generation)

Matthew 24:32-37KJV
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

 

[rwb]

The question was asked by the disciples and answered by Jesus regarding the (Second Coming) And (End Of This World) Future Events Unfulfilled

Matthew 24:3KJV
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

The question was not only about the signs that would accompany the coming of Christ and the end of the world, they also asked about when the buildings and temple would be thrown down.

Matthew 24:1-2 (KJV) And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Tell us, when shall these things be?

Christ does not tell them when the buildings and temple would be thrown down, but He does tell them what will come to pass as they take the Gospel of the Kingdom of God unto all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. They will come under "great tribulation" the tribulation the disciples must endure will not be the end of preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom of God. Though the great tribulation that comes against Christ and His chosen people shall be difficult to endure, and impossible apart from faith, God will always cut it short, that great tribulation shall not be successful in putting an end to preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom of God, because the spiritual Kingdom of God within you is being built through the Gospel. We see this pattern repeatedly throughout redemptive history. Where the Church is attacked and sometimes the light of Christ is extinguished in some churches on earth, just as Christ warned it would be when the Church has lost Her first love, and faltered from the faith.

In answer to the second part of the disciples questions, "and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?" Christ tells them there shall be signs from heaven that will be like lightning coming out of the east after the tribulation that comes in the days for preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom of God. The sign of the Son of man in heaven will cause all the tribe of the earth to mourn because the sun will be darkened and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven. Then "they" who are alive at that day will visibly see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven to gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Matthew 24:27 (KJV) For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Matthew 24:29-31 (KJV) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

1.) What is near even at the doors? (The Second Coming) a Future Generation that will (See All These Things)

NO! What is near even at the doors is the Kingdom of God that Christ ushered in with His coming to earth a man. It is the Gospel preached in the power of the Holy Spirit away that whosoever hears and believes enters into the spiritual Kingdom of God by grace through faith.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Hi all,
Our men's group is discussing the Olivet Discourse and in order to facilitate a good discussion, I would like to present a list of typical questions often asked about the subject. Can you help me think of questions to ask?

I already have three in mind.

Why does Luke talk about armies while Mark and Matthew talk about the Abomination of Desolation?What does Jesus mean by "the elect"?What does Jesus mean by "this generation?"
Can you think of other questions that we typically ask? Our meeting is next week. I want to gather your questions and put them together with mine and make a list for our group to follow.

Try this question: Why does Christ in Luke 21:7-35 say of that entire list of predicted troubles in the Olivet Discourse that His disciples were to "watch ye then, in every season, praying that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that are ABOUT TO COME TO PASS, and to stand before the Son of Man." (YLT) ? This was a list of troubles that Christ's own disciples would be facing in their own first-century generation, prior to Christ's return.

Ask your group this also: Why would the Luke 21:12 warning be given to us today to prepare for being "delivered up to the synagogues, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake"? These "rulers" concerning which Christ was speaking were the rulers of the Sanhedrin, who persecuted His own disciples during the days of the early church, as recorded in Acts. No believer today is going to be hauled into a synagogue and brought before the rulers of a non-existent Sanhedrin council, to be either beaten or imprisoned for the sake of Christ's name.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

Why is it that despite the disciples' question regarding the temple in Jerusalem, in all three synoptic gospels the first thing Jesus begins to speak about after He sat down on the Mount of Olives, was the persecution and tribulation His disciples would endure?

Because he had to show them the END WAS NOT YET (verses 4-6) and demonstrate it was by and or much later on in verses 7-8 and not in the Disciples lifetime.

But people just fail to grasp his answer to the disciples first question in full. You see, I proffer that verses 4-13 are specifically unto the Disciples and the early first century church. When they asked "when shall these things be?" Jesus answered in verses 4-6 because that was specifically targeted unto the disciples about the 70 AD "wars and rumors of wars" the Disciples (hence ye). So, Jesus starts out by teling them about how the temple will be destroyed via his answer to the when shall these things be question, see my point, he does not reaffirm the temple will be destroyed, he merely tells them what signs to look for.

Jesus starts out, let no man deceive (Disciples) you for many shall come in "my name" and will deceive many. When you hear of wars and rumors of wars specifically means (67-70 AD)

This is important because in 67-70 AD we know the Pharisees fulfilled John 5:43 (YES, its really not an end time prophecy) by putting forth a few messianic figures who came in their own names (not of God like Jesus was). Jesus had to get this across to his disciples, because if they had come rushing back thinking this was Jesus come again, like Zech. 14:3-4 prophesies, then they would have been killed, and it is likely the church patrons would have been right by their sides and the church in its infancy would have been crushed by the Roman army, thus Jesus had to get this point across. This IS NOT THE END "the end is by and by or much later on" then in verses 7-8, the reason why so many people think Matt. 24 match Rev. 6 and are end time scriptures (they are not), Jesus is simply demonstrating all the things that must happen before the end time or 70th week can come, which will usher in the Kingdom Age under Jesus via his 2nd coming so, he had to get this point across to them that these "wars and rumors of wars" event was not him come again.

Thus verses 7-8 is simply Jesus showing the disciples why its not the end in 70 AD, then in vs. 14 he gives the Disciples a fool proof understanding of why the 70 AD events can not be his 2nd coming. But in verses 7-8 Jesus simply says many things have to happen before the end can come, like many, many, many varied earthquakes, plagues, plagues and more plagues, much famine, and many, many wars and even ethos against ethos or tribes against tribes, none of this could happen under Rome, there was not wars or clans vs. clans per se in the Roman Kingdom, they would not allow that in their Pax Romanus. So, verses 7-8 is NOT END TIMES, its just Jesus demonstrating why the 70 AD events can not be the end times, and thus that the disciples would never live long enough to see Jesus' Kingdom Age ushered in. Verse 14 proves this 100 percent. Matt. 24:4-13 is actually a "Survival Guide" for the Disciples and early church. However people take verses 7-8 and demand they can only be about the end times, they are not. Verses 15-31 are about the end time events.

Now, if one skips verses 7-8 (which is merely a demonstration of why vs. 6 can not be THE END) we see Jesus goes right back to teaching the Disciples what's going to go on during their lives, save for John, all of them will become Martyrs. In vs. 9 Jesus tells the Disciples they will all be killed, and many false prophets (not false christs as in verses 4-6, which were fake messiahs in 67-70 AD) will arise and deceive many, but this was not "Christian false prophets" these were the Zeus and Jupiter types, who before the Gospel had their way, now they were angry that the Gospel was taking away their patrons, so they cried out to Rome, and we know what happened, they started killing the Disciples and later on Rome burned Christians at the stake etc. etc. Thus in vs. 13 Jesus warns "THE DISCIPLES" that they must endure until the end [of their lives]. People again see this as end times because of that quote, it not, its about Jesus telling the Disciples their fate ahead of time, so they will not be surprised and become another Judas like betrayer of God.

Then in vs. 14 we get the BIG REAVEAL which 100 percent proves the Disciples knew they would never see Jesus' 2nd coming and therefore Jesus 100 percent showed them that the Temples Destruction and Rumors of Wars events in 67-70 AD were not his 2nd coming, that way they would not show up in Jerusalem and get killed, and have the church following them there. They knew 100 percent 70 AD was not Jesus' return because Jesus told them the Gospel has to be preached unto all the world first, and only then could THE END (70th week) come. The disciples knew of China, India and the Scythians (modern day Russia) so they knew 100 percent that they would never see Jesus' 2nd coming, because, of course, they knew they would never reach these nations during their lives with the Gospel !!

That answers when will these things be(Temples Destruction. Verses 15-31 answers the other 2 questions.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

What does Jesus mean by "the elect"?

Read post 48 above, I give a general rundown of how and why Matt. 24:4-13 is not about the end times at all, but about 67-70 AD via verses 4-6, verses 7-8 demonstrates why vs. 6 says the end is by and by. Then verses 9-13 give the disciples their fate. Verse 14 then gives them a 100 percent foolproof understanding of why they will never in their lifetimes see Jesus' 2nd coming. Read post 48 for those details.

As per "THE ELECT" Jesus was sent unto the Jews only, so here he is speaking about end time Jews who have repented and thus are "Elected unto Heaven" by Jesus' blood. The Church is gone by this time.

What does Jesus mean by "this generation?"

Its not 40 years nor 70 years etc. the reason people get this wrong is they see Israel as the "Fig Tree" and in other places they are called that, but here Jesus likens the Fruit of the fig tree as being near to summer when it starts blooming, then he says "LIKEWISE" when you see all these things, know that I am near. So, Jesus is juxtaposing people who see the LAST SIGN (all these signs he just told the disciples about in verses 4-31. So, only the end time Jews who see the "LAST SIGN" (thus all these signs) and that last sign can be seen in Matt. 24:29, the Sun & Moon goes dark or gets dimmer by 1/3. This comes from the Revelation 8 Asteroid Impact, so the Jewish peoples who are alive and sees the Asteroid Impact that causes the Sun and Moon go dark, will be the Generation that sees Jesus 2nd coming.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Apostasy did not come to Israel though physical warfare. It came to Israel because the Jews turned away from the one true God to worship other gods and idols. The Jews had already become apostate and an abomination unto God long before the first advent of Christ coming to earth a man. It is because of spiritual idolatry and abominations that God sent the Roman Army to physically destroy them forever.

Absurd. The apostasy of 2nd Thess 2 has nothing to do with The Old Testament Israel in the first century. You were trying to apply the verses to the wrong period. And... you got the wrong army and the wrong Israel to begin with anyway.

The nation of Israel shall never again be a holy people unto God, except for the remnant according to election of grace who would hear the Gospel of the Kingdom of God preached and by grace through faith the remnant of them would believe in Christ for everlasting life. Only the remnant according to election of grace of Old and New Covenant are eternally saved from the physical nation of Israel.

Of course.

Any Jew since the first century AD hearing the Gospel of the Kingdom of God preached will be among the innumerable multitude from every nation, tribe, kindred and tongue that shall be saved, and not of Israel of Old, but the "Israel of God" that Christ ushered in with His coming.

Wrong. There were many Jews since PENTECOST who heard the Gospel of the Kingdom and they have gone out to the world, along with the Gentiles long before 70AD.

The literal, physical destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple that Christ told His disciples would come was not spiritual it was literal, and the words Christ spoke came true in 70 AD.

False. Matthew 24:1-2 already spoke about the fall of the Old Testament congregation, not physical stones falling. The rest of Matthew 24 prophesied about the fall of the NEW Testament congregaiton. Not Israel in 70AD.

The Roman Army is not what caused abomination in the holy place.

LOL!!!! You still don't get it. The Jewish temple was NOT holy in 70AD. Wasn't the torn of the veil of the temple at the time of Christ's death mean anything to you and you thought it was still holy after this?

Abomination in the holy place is something spiritually known/understood not visibly seen.

Correct. Unfortunately, you got the holy place messed up. It is the Church which has been the holy place since the Cross. Not after 70AD.

The final abomination committed by the Jews that brough them to utter desolation and ruin was handing Christ over to Gentiles to be crucified. That's when Daniel speaks of abomination that makes desolate as the sacrifice, that is Christ being taken away.

That is where you got many things wrong.
Daniel 9:27

• "And He shall confirm the Covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week He shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations He shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

What is this one week (seven) that follows the cutting off of Messiah (after the 62 weeks or sevens). There has been a lot of speculation and guessing of what this means. We've heard everything from 70 years, to 7 years. The reason that we have all these different ideas about this final week, is because people are not letting the scripture interpret this week. They are doing a lot of assuming, and their studies dripping with speculation of when this Covenant is confirmed. I say that respectfully, but with passion. For we 'must' let the Bible itself tell us what it means. As Righteous Joseph said when asked his interpretation, "..Do not Interpretations belong to God?" He was right! And God speaks to us today through His word, not speculation. Let's look within His Holy Word and see what God declares.

There is a simple way to determine what period this is. We know From the context (after the 62 weeks) that it starts after the cross, after Messiah the Prince is 'Cut Off.' And we know that this Prince Confirms ([gabar], a Hebrew word which actually is Strengthened) the Covenant after these 62 weeks. Therefore, the week cannot start until Christ is cut Off! Moreover, we know that in the middle of this final week, the sacrifice and offering will cease, and that at the end of this last week, is the consummation. This much is clearly told us in the verse. And so God has told us that that this week is from the cross (after 62 weeks when Messiah is cut off), and goes all the way from there, to the Consummation (the End of the World). And so what need is there to speculate? On several levels we see that it signifies the New Covenant week. In fact, the only reason anyone would speculate differently would be if they didn't understand how sacrifice and offering ceases in the middle of the week. many people believe this refers to the 'literal' sacrifice of lambs in the literal temple, and so they are confused by a New Covenant week, with sacrifice ceasing, after the cross.

But this truth is confirmed again in Daniel chapter 12, as it talks about the last half of this new Covenant week as Time, Times and one half (3 1/2), a time of Trouble for God's people, and when the taking away of the daily or continual sacrifice would occur.

Daniel 12:5-6

• "..How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?
  
  
• And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up His right hand and His left hand unto the heaven, and SWARE by Him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and a half; and WHEN He shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the Holy People, All these things shall be finished."

Daniel 12:11-12

• "And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
  
  
• Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days."

This is WHEN the daily or 'continual' shall be taken away. In the Midst of the week. And it's not the physical sacrifice at the Cross as many respected Theologians think, it's just before the Abomination of desolation in the future! It's when the candlesticks are killed after the testimony of the two witnesses is finished (Rev. 11). When He who restrains iniquity is taken out of the midst (2nd Thess 2). After all are sealed who are to be sealed (Rev. 7). In simple terms, it is after the fulness of the Gentiles have come in, and all (spiritual) Israel is Saved. Then and only then is a final devastating judgment brought upon the unfaithful Church, a great departing from the faith (1st Timothy 4:1) where there is Apostasy and remaineth no sacrifice. For example, once all Israel has been Saved, and no one else remains to be Saved. Christ has ceased the sacrifice for the purpose of salvation. And if this time of tribulation is not shortened, because no one else is being saved, there would not be any saved flesh left on earth. But for the sake of the Elect, these days shall be shortened.

Selah!

(Continue to next post)

 

[TribulationSigns]

That does not mean the prophetic words of Christ against the nation of Israel was not also foretold by Christ on the mount of Olives.

Yes He did. Matthew 24:1-2, Luke 21:5-6, Mark 13:1-2. The FALL of Old Testament congregation with people (stones) falling. The rest of the Olivet discourse applies to New Testament congregation in the future when SHE shall fall into apostasy AFTER the ministry of Two Witnesses is finished. Not about national Israel of the first century (since she ALREADY fell and became desolate when Christ prophesied about her right there).
Mat 23:37-38
(37) O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
(38) Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

5-6 His words of Israel's utter ruin would not be fulfilled for about thirty more years.

That is why you are wrong about it. Christ was NOT talking about physical fulfillment here. Its spiritual discernment.

Those first century Christian disciples of Christ that heeded His warning when they understood after His cross that Jerusalem and the Temple were no longer holy places to God were not killed by the army of Roman soldiers that physically made an end to a city that was no longer the spiritual representation of God on earth. They were in fact an abomination unto Him.

Huh??? Do you realize that most Christians already went into other countries long before 70AD? Have you already forgotten that Saul (Paul) was looking for Christians in other country, in the city of Damascus, shortly after Pentecost? Humm??

The beloved city since the first advent of Christ is Jerusalem from above, "Israel of God" that is both Jews of faith and Gentiles of faith together as one spiritual body of believers physically alive throughout the world.

Guess what, that is called "church". Remember she is a physical representative of God's kingdom on Earth. She is the holy place on this side of the Cross. She is indeed a beloved city - the camps of the Saints.

Rev 20:8-9 speaks of what shall come AFTER time, symbolized a thousand years has expired. During his little season, Satan will gather together Gog (antichrists) and Magog (antichristian parties) surrounding the holy people of God throughout the world, attempting one last time to keep the spiritual Kingdom of God from being completed. The battle that shall ensue then against the holy people of God, His Church, will bring physical death to some of the holy people of God, in the same way the physical army brought physical death to the city of Old.

Physical death? No no.
Rev 11:7-8
(7) And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
(8) And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Nothing to do with Physical. You already forgot that the Church was given a commission with the power to take the Gospel message to the ends of the Earth. We are to bring PEACE (salvation gospel) to the world. And the devil was restrained (in the bottomless pit) until the building of the church was completed with all Gentiles (as well as some Jews) coming in FIRST! AFTER THIS, the beast (the armies of false prophets and christs) will come out of bottomless pit to wage spiritual war against God's Elect and to overcome it and kill them. I hope you won't read it into as a bloodbath killing of God's people here. This is NOT what is in view here. Rather it is about Satan cutting truth off by silencing their truthful testimony in the church. In other words, Satan has not only removed power from them but peace from Earth. Consider wisely:

Act 1:8
(8) But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Jesus Christ is the WHITE HORSE of Revelation 6 to bring peace to Earth though the church. They are his witnesses that proclaim the gospel of peace. This was Christ's mission until the building ot eh church by faithful witnesses finished, then the red horse comes:
Rev 6:4
(4) And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

Who gave the devil the power to remove peace (salvation) from the Earth? Jesus Christ of course! This is HOW Jesus Christ has ceased the sacrifice for salvation because all Israel has been sealed (Revelation 7:1-4) and the testimony of His Witnesses is finished. He is using the devil as a tool of judgment upon the unfaithful church first before Christ's Second Coming.

 

[Truth7t7]

NO! What is near even at the doors is the Kingdom of God that Christ ushered in with His coming to earth a man. It is the Gospel preached in the power of the Holy Spirit away that whosoever hears and believes enters into the spiritual Kingdom of God by grace through faith.

RWB right along with what is near even at the doors is the verse below talking about the time of the second coming is what no man knows

You take the very plain scripture and bend and twist it to support your teaching "Wrong"

Nothing in Matthew 24 talks about Jesus ushering in the kingdom of God as you falsely claim, bend and twist to make your reformed preterist teachings fit

Matthew 24:36KJV
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

 

[Marty fox]

Try this question: Why does Christ in Luke 21:7-35 say of that entire list of predicted troubles in the Olivet Discourse that His disciples were to "watch ye then, in every season, praying that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that are ABOUT TO COME TO PASS, and to stand before the Son of Man." (YLT) ? This was a list of troubles that Christ's own disciples would be facing in their own first-century generation, prior to Christ's return.

Ask your group this also: Why would the Luke 21:12 warning be given to us today to prepare for being "delivered up to the synagogues, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake"? These "rulers" concerning which Christ was speaking were the rulers of the Sanhedrin, who persecuted His own disciples during the days of the early church, as recorded in Acts. No believer today is going to be hauled into a synagogue and brought before the rulers of a non-existent Sanhedrin council, to be either beaten or imprisoned for the sake of Christ's name.

Or even to pray that it doesn’t happen on the sabbath?

That was because the city gates were locked on the sabbath

 

[Zao is life]

That answers when will these things be(Temples Destruction. Verses 15-31 answers the other 2 questions.

The wise believers in Christ who fully believe the gospel and ALL the words of Christ and His apostles, consider whose temple is the temple that the Holy Spirit indwells, and what the abomination of desolation in the holy place actually refers to, because the temple that was destroyed in 70 A.D had ceased being the holy place when the veil inside that temple was torn in two:

--- So when you see the abomination of desolation - spoken about by Daniel the prophet - standing in the holy place (let the reader understand): ---​

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"Abomination of Desolation" is a phrase from the Book of Daniel describing the pagan sacrifices with which the 2nd century BC Greek king Antiochus IV Epiphanes replaced the twice-daily offering in the Jewish temple, or alternatively the altar on which such offerings were made."

(Abomination of desolation - Wikipedia)​

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Daniel prophesied about:

(a) an abomination of desolation placed in the holy place by Antiochus IV which did not result in the destruction of city and sanctuary (the sanctuary was cleansed and rededicated when Antiochus IV was ousted); and

(b) about desolating abominations (plural) that Daniel associated with both the destruction of city and tabernacle, once Messiah had come and been cut off.

John 4:21-24
Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Acts 7:48a
But, the Most High does not dwell in temples (Greek: naos) made with hands.

Acts 17:24
The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of Heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples (Greek naos) made with hands.

The wise believers in Christ who fully believe the gospel and ALL the words of Christ and His apostles know that the hour which Jesus spoke about that was coming (when God would not be worshiped in a stone and mortar temple anywhere), came when Jesus died on the cross, and the veil inside the stone and mortar temple was torn in two.

Matthew 24:15 appears in the context of Jesus telling His disciples about the tribulation that the living stones of the New Testament temple were going to endure at the end of the Age immediately before He returns, and warning them about false prophets - just as the apostle Peter warned about false teachers teaching false doctrines.

So with regard to Matthew 24:15, the wise believers in Christ understand that the way it's interpreted would depend on whether or not the person interpreting it actually fully believes the gospel and ALL the words spoken by Christ and His apostles, so as not to mistake the temple destroyed in 70 A.D for the holy place of God.

A.D 70 was the fulfillment of (b) below, but (a) is the type or forerunner of 2 Thess 2:4 and Matt.24:15.

(a) is not associated with the destruction of the temple (or of the city), but of the oppression of God's elect, and the killing of all who refused to worship the image.

(b) was associated with the destruction of both the city and the temple, and it's now history.

Daniel prophesied about:

(a) an abomination of desolation placed in the holy place by Antiochus IV which did not result in the destruction of city and sanctuary (the sanctuary was cleansed and rededicated when Antiochus IV was ousted); and

(b) about desolating abominations (plural) that Daniel associated with both the destruction of city and tabernacle, once Messiah had come and been cut off.
​

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"Abomination of Desolation" is a phrase from the Book of Daniel describing the pagan sacrifices with which the 2nd century BC Greek king Antiochus IV Epiphanes replaced the twice-daily offering in the Jewish temple, or alternatively the altar on which such offerings were made."

(Abomination of desolation - Wikipedia)​

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[rwb]

Accidental reply

 

[rwb]

Nothing in Matthew 24 talks about Jesus ushering in the kingdom of God as you falsely claim, bend and twist to make your reformed preterist teachings fit

Really? Then I wonder why Christ says the Gospel of the Kingdom shall be preached? Why would Christ instruct His Gospel of the Kingdom of God to be preached if the discourse has nothing to say about the Kingdom of God that no man can visibly see, is not of this world, but it is within you?

Matthew 24:14 (KJV) And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Thus verses 7-8 is simply Jesus showing the, why its not the end, then in vs. 14 he gives the Disciples a fool proof understanding of why the 70 AD events can not be his 2nd coming. But in verses 7-8 Jesus simply says many things has to happen before the end can come, like many, many, many varied earthquakes, plagues, plagues and more plagues, much famine, and many, many wars and even ethos against ethos or tribes against tribes, none of this could happen under Rome, there was not wars or clans vs. clans per se in the Roman Kingdom, they would not allow that in their Pax Romanus

The years leading up to AD 70 were replete with just such tragic events as Christ predicted for that first-century generation. "Terrible even in peace", was the way Josephus described it . The wars and rebellions breaking out during those times are well documented. Likewise the surge in seismic activity and famines, which also are already being mentioned in Acts. These also were documented by historians of the day, as well as leaving us today archaeological evidence of those seismic events dated to the years leading up to AD 70.

This IS NOT THE END "the end is by and by or much later on"

You have misquoted Christ. He said "the end is NOT by and by..." The phrase "by and by" in scripture does not mean "much later on". It means "IMMEDIATELY". We today have typically misunderstood this phrase. One example where scripture defines "by and by" is Herodias' daughter demanding of Herod, "I will that thou give me by and by in a charger the head of John the Baptist." And it says "Immediately the king sent an executioner, and commanded his head to be brought..." (Mark 6:25-27). Another example is Luke 17:7, "But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle, will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, 'Go and sit down to meat'? And will not rather say unto him, 'Make ready wherewith I may sup, and gird thyself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken; and afterward thou shalt eat and drink'?" This was the servant immediately coming from the field being addressed by the master - not "much later on".

So, when Christ told His disciples in Luke 21:9, "But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by", this meant that the end would not be immediately after those wars and commotions, but just a little while after. This happened just as Christ foretold in the troubled years (the "beginning of sorrows" period) leading up to the AD 66-70 Zealot rebellion, which launched the unparalleled "days of vengeance" / aka "the Great Tribulation". And we are told that Christ would return "IMMEDIATELY AFTER the tribulation of those days" (Matthew 24:29-30). The chronology is pretty clear for an AD 70 bodily return of Christ.

 

[Truth7t7]

Really? Then I wonder why Christ says the Gospel of the Kingdom shall be preached? Why would Christ instruct His Gospel of the Kingdom of God to be preached if the discourse has nothing to say about the Kingdom of God that no man can visibly see, is not of this world, but it is within you?

Matthew 24:14 (KJV) And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

The very verse you provide Matthew 24:14 supports my argument that Matthew 24 is speaking to a future generation than that of the disciples

Had the gospel been preached to all the world nations in the disciples 1st century AD Generation "No"

 

[Truth7t7]

The question was not only about the signs that would accompany the coming of Christ and the end of the world, they also asked about when the buildings and temple would be thrown down.

Matthew 24:1-2 (KJV) And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Tell us, when shall these things be?

Christ does not tell them when the buildings and temple would be thrown down, but He does tell them what will come to pass as they take the Gospel of the Kingdom of God unto all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. They will come under "great tribulation" the tribulation the disciples must endure will not be the end of preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom of God. Though the great tribulation that comes against Christ and His chosen people shall be difficult to endure, and impossible apart from faith, God will always cut it short, that great tribulation shall not be successful in putting an end to preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom of God, because the spiritual Kingdom of God within you is being built through the Gospel. We see this pattern repeatedly throughout redemptive history. Where the Church is attacked and sometimes the light of Christ is extinguished in some churches on earth, just as Christ warned it would be when the Church has lost Her first love, and faltered from the faith.

In answer to the second part of the disciples questions, "and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?" Christ tells them there shall be signs from heaven that will be like lightning coming out of the east after the tribulation that comes in the days for preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom of God. The sign of the Son of man in heaven will cause all the tribe of the earth to mourn because the sun will be darkened and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven. Then "they" who are alive at that day will visibly see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven to gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Matthew 24:27 (KJV) For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Matthew 24:29-31 (KJV) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.



NO! What is near even at the doors is the Kingdom of God that Christ ushered in with His coming to earth a man. It is the Gospel preached in the power of the Holy Spirit away that whosoever hears and believes enters into the spiritual Kingdom of God by grace through faith.

You gave complete disregard to my question below as if it didn't exist "Why"?

Once Again, When did or will Daniel's Abomination of Desolation take place, when did or will those seen below flee Judea to the mountains?

Matthew 24:15-16KJV
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

 

[Truth7t7]

And we are told that Christ would return "IMMEDIATELY AFTER the tribulation of those days" (Matthew 24:29-30). The chronology is pretty clear for an AD 70 bodily return of Christ.

Many would consider your claim heretical, in the realm of a "Full Preterist"

No Jesus didn't return bodily in 70AD as you falsely claim, it's a future event that will culminate in the end of this world