Understanding The 144,000

[Davy]

So, ... just to be clear ..., do you believe then that there may be genetic 'seed' of Israel (Jews) alive unto the end, who may live in grievous sin all their life - and fall away to worship the beast, who will at the last moment be allowed to see the Truth of God Almighty and be taken to Heaven - despite all the wickedness they have done?

Ain't no pre-trib rapture, so you can forget asking me to agree to that false doctrine of the devil. And that is what you are trying to prod me about, with that fake "tribulation saints" idea from the Pre-trib Rapture theorists of men. This you can count on: by the time the "great tribulation" starts, each person will already be divided to one side or the other, and will remain in their belief to the day of Jesus' return. That means, if you believe the false Pre-trib Rapture theory from men when the trib starts, you will continue to believe it throughout that tribulation, all the way to the end of it, because at the end of it is actually when Lord Jesus showed His coming to gather His Church is (Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27).

God through His prophets foretold of the gathering of house of Judah and house of Israel back together again, in the lands He promise their fathers. And God through Jeremiah promised that Israel would never... end as a nation before Him. The 144,000 list of the sealed from the seed of Israel in Rev.7 is a testimony of their continued existence. So speculation that the 144,000 represent someone else other than who that Scripture says is just men's leaven.

If you don't know this, maybe more Bible study might be in order, as Lord Jesus did not cancel prophecies yet to come to pass that were written back in the Old Testament prophets.

2 Peter 3:1-2
3 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:
2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
KJV

 

[Enoch111]

You need to look at Scripture again... and be careful of listening to men's traditions.

I have no interest in men's traditions. But the Bible equates nations with Gentiles as noted below:

Nevertheless the dimness shall not be such as was in her vexation, when at the first he lightly afflicted the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, and afterward did more grievously afflict her by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, in Galilee of the nations. (Isaiah 9:1)

That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, The land of Zabulon, and the land of Nephthalim, by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles (Mt 4:14,15)

Matthew by divine inspiration quotes almost the exact words from Isaiah, and the Holy Spirit equates nations with Gentiles.

 

[GEN2REV]

Ain't no pre-trib rapture, so you can forget asking me to agree to that false doctrine of the devil. And that is what you are trying to prod me about, with that fake "tribulation saints" idea from the Pre-trib Rapture theorists of men. This you can count on: by the time the "great tribulation" starts, each person will already be divided to one side or the other, and will remain in their belief to the day of Jesus' return. That means, if you believe the false Pre-trib Rapture theory from men when the trib starts, you will continue to believe it throughout that tribulation, all the way to the end of it, because at the end of it is actually when Lord Jesus showed His coming to gather His Church is (Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27).

God through His prophets foretold of the gathering of house of Judah and house of Israel back together again, in the lands He promise their fathers. And God through Jeremiah promised that Israel would never... end as a nation before Him. The 144,000 list of the sealed from the seed of Israel in Rev.7 is a testimony of their continued existence. So speculation that the 144,000 represent someone else other than who that Scripture says is just men's leaven.

If you don't know this, maybe more Bible study might be in order, as Lord Jesus did not cancel prophecies yet to come to pass that were written back in the Old Testament prophets.

2 Peter 3:1-2
3 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:
2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
KJV

Well, your train just completely jumped track, brother.

I was with you 'til this 'out-of-left-field' post.

I challenge you to search every single post I've ever made here for a single statement anywhere that supports Pre-Trib Rapture.

I've never once made any comment in support of Pre-Trib Rapture, and I just very adamantly declared my opposition to it in post #14 of this thread, so you are very clearly taking desperate measures to avoid the simple question I presented to you.

That is: Do you believe that there will be Jews (spiritual or genetic - doesn't matter), who will live lives of sin and even come to worship the beast up to the point of Jesus' return on The Last Day, who will then have their blindness removed and be allowed to be saved and go to Heaven?

It's a very simple question, and has NOTHING to do with Pre-Trib Rapture, so you can drop the dramatic antics.

You either believe that or you do not. It 100% contradicts scripture in many places, not the least of which being Ezekiel 18.

" ... I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord God. Repent and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin."
Ezekiel 18:30

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

In Zechariah 14:5 Jesus returns, saves Jerusalem, wipes out the attacking armies, and we know that’s when the millennial kingdom reign on earth begins.

Zechariah 14:16-21 goes on to say those left alive from the nations such as Egypt, go up into the city to worship.

They are called heathen in verse 18, , and sacrifice animals, verse 21, and those will be the nations on earth during the millennium, that Jesus rules with a rod of iron - and they will be doing the procreating.

Maranatha

I think keeping the Feast of Tabernacles will be as a memorial to all who will be living im tents when the worldwide quake destroys all buildings. I doubt animals will be sacrificed. The only sacrifice left is praise. Jesus fulfilled all the Law and so He was the final sacrifice. It would be an insult to sacrifice animals.
I also think OT scriptures needed to convey and have people believe God's Covenant was to continue forever - but it didn't. Jesus changed that and when they finally realize that their sacrificial system is over,
and their burden taken away, they will be grateful.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Yeah, I got all that.



No, I do not agree with that.

The fact that the world to come events are linked to the "great multitude" points to a future forward view for after Christ's return. The idea of the Church being raptured prior to the great tribulation is a leaven doctrine of men; it is not written anywhere in God's Word. Jesus revealed the order of His return is to be after... that tribulation (see Matthew 24:29-31, and Mark 13:24-27, and I dare you to prove those Scriptures mean a rapture prior to the tribulation).

Not only are events in Revelation written down in the actual order they occur, some Chapters there also move their timelines between past, present, and future. And we must always be mindful of that prophetic movement, for it is the same kind of thing that happens in the Books of God's Old Testament prophets. The descriptions of the "great multitude" is a revealing of events for after... Christ's return, NOT while the tribulation is going on.

"After the tribulation of those days" doesn't mean after the entire GT. It just means after those days/ events previously mentioned. The next verse proves the tribulation continues. There are 1290 days.
I lean towards the Mid-trib view and that the rapture happens at the 7th trumpet, which is when the 7 bowls of wrath are released - not sure anymore though.
The multitude was taken out of the GT.
Like I said, it is my opinion. I'LL bend a little and say the Jewish converts may be sealed prior to the rapture. Being marked by God, having His seal doesn't necessarily mean they believe jn Jesus yet, otherwise why wouldn't they be raptured too? It does mean they are written in the Book of Life and they do believe in God.

 

[Curtis]

I think keeping the Feast of Tabernacles will be as a memorial to all who will be living im tents when the worldwide quake destroys all buildings. I doubt animals will be sacrificed. The only sacrifice left is praise. Jesus fulfilled all the Law and so He was the final sacrifice. It would be an insult to sacrifice animals.
I also think OT scriptures needed to convey and have people believe God's Covenant was to continue forever - but it didn't. Jesus changed that and when they finally realize that their sacrificial system is over,
and their burden taken away, they will be grateful.

There’s no guessing there.

Heathen nations such as Egypt are on earth during the millennium, says the prophet Zechariah, and they will be sacrificing animals, so have a law similar to the first covenant

Zec 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Zec 14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

Zec 14:18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.


Zec 14:21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.

These heathen nations are obviously where Satan gets those people he assembles together for war at the end of the millennium when he’s released from the pit, and the final battle is fought.

 

[Marty fox]

This comment shows a lack of familiarity with the matter. Israel is never shown as a part of the "nations". "Nations" means Gentile nations. And Israel was a theocracy.

Getting back to the title, there should have never been any doubt that the 144,000 are indeed 12,000 from each of the twelve tribes of Israel. It is plainly shown in the Bible. They are distinct from all the others in Heaven who are without number.

Okay then how about every tribe was Israel made up of tribes?

How about people are Israel a part of every people?

How about language did Israel have a language?

I don’t mean any offence here but I actually think that you’re comment shows a lack of familiarity of the matter.

How does the bible plainly show that they are 12000 from each tribe of Israel when the 12 tribes mentioned in that text aren’t even the actual 12 tribes mention in the bible?

 

[Enoch111]

How does the bible plainly show that they are 12000 from each tribe of Israel when the 12 tribes mentioned in that text aren’t even the actual 12 tribes mention in the bible?

The 12 tribes listed in Revelation 7 are the same as those listed in Ezekiel 48 with one exception. The tribe of Dan is absent in Revelation 7 but included in Ezekiel 48. And these tribes are also listed in Genesis.

 

[Marty fox]

The 12 tribes listed in Revelation 7 are the same as those listed in Ezekiel 48 with one exception. The tribe of Dan is absent in Revelation 7 but included in Ezekiel 48. And these tribes are also listed in Genesis.

So yes I was right they aren’t the original 12 tribes. Out of all of the times in the bible there is a list of tribes neither are the same list as revelation 7

How about my other points?

 

[nenagana]

(the current projection is that, the people in isreal will die in mass from RABIES very quickly, most the jews, then, isreal will be over taken all at once by several of its neighbors............then..............they will just keep dying and filling in that area, for a long period of time, this may go on until humanity is dead)

(the theory with COVID19, is that, any person can become a carrier without exposure, the human body is an instrument and so is the earth, so there is less tolerance when you have more unclean people doing unclean things, that includes many common customs and activities............enough people won't die naturally to satisfy the gospel's accusation of dead flesh, but enough people will die to disrupt society, its daily functions for some time) Back to Topic

The 144,000

Long Long Long Long Long Long Story Short!!!!!!!!

It'ssssssssssssss. Not important if i'm wrong, because everything will be resolved soon, anyway.

When God was making the Ark of the Covenant (Moses's Serpent, the pyramid builder's soulmate, came from him, but when she returned, or around that time, corruption left his body).

God says that first the ark of the covenant was "purple and blue".........but while the ark of the covenant was being built, God then said it was "blue and gold"

This is very important. Because, the language of the ark is similar to the presentation of the "144,000"..............and...............that is also a description of Jerusalem/Isreal, the physical location if that statement is true God says. This means, there is an event that signifies the 1000 Year Kingdom (or the last 30 to 40 years of Joseph's Kingship or the "lion of judah", the book of revelation covers).

Its because God continued to use the name Jerusalem, that people believe that in the last days, many people will come to jerusalem/isreal to be clothed in white, but this will also be, a blood bath for many years, because of the ethnicity environment there.

 

[Truman]

12,000, from each of the 12 tribes. Seems pretty simple to me.

 

[JohnPaul]

So us Gentiles who have believed in Christ our Savior have no chance, because we are not Jewish and part of the 12 tribes?

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Heathen nations such as Egypt are on earth during the millennium, says the prophet Zechariah, and they will be sacrificing animals, so have a law similar to the first covenant

Heathen nations should take quite some time to develop. Why? Because sin, evil, Satan and his horde had just suffered a massive defeat. All you will see is GOOD for a long time.
Inititially_ in the beggining of the MK _ all peoples on earth _ in every nation _ will be believers. Non-believers were destroyed and so for most of the MK we will see a peaceful world - especially without Satan to tempt them. Everyone will know the Lord and every household will teach their children.
Of course those who are born in the Millennial Kingdom are born in sin. They still have to learn about Jesus, follow and believe.
The act of visiting Him annually to pay homage and celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles face to face would be life changing in itself. Hence not visiting, causes one to drift away from Him.
We know how teenagers get. That rebellioisness to authority, wanting to go their own way will still present trials. But the state of the world, the love flowing through everyone, the fruit of the Spirit present everywhere will be enough to influence even the most rebellious lad from straying too far.
Towards the end, especially when Satan is released to tempt them, people will turn heathen.

 

[Truman]

So us Gentiles who have believed in Christ our Savior have no chance, because we are not Jewish and part of the 12 tribes?[/QUOTE
Why would you even ask that question?
…12For there is no difference between Jew and Greek: The same Lord is Lord of all, and gives richly to all who call on Him, 13for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” - Romans 10:13

 

[Marty fox]

12,000, from each of the 12 tribes. Seems pretty simple to me.

Except it’s not the 12 tribes mentioned in Revelation chapter 7

 

[Truman]

Except it’s not the 12 tribes mentioned in Revelation chapter 7

Your point is...

 

[Helen]

Nah! Who is Israel …it it’s the true blood washed saints throughout time.

When the writer of Revelation Describes his heavenly encounter in pictures a types. Why does man then seek to understand it and interpret it with his carnal mind literally! He tries to bring it down to his own understanding.

It is written spiritually therefore understood spiritually ….144,000 is a spiritual number that is obvious to a babe, therefore everything else described here is spiritual too.
It is not (only) literal Israel , it is not literal virgins …etc etc

 

[Truman]

Nah! Who is Israel …it it’s the true blood washed saints throughout time.

When the writer of Revelation Describes his heavenly encounter in pictures a types. Why does man then seek to understand it and interpret it with his carnal mind literally! He tries to bring it down to his own understanding.

It is written spiritually therefore understood spiritually ….144,000 is a spiritual number that is obvious to a babe, therefore everything else described here is spiritual too.
It is not (only) literal Israel , it is not literal virgins …etc etc

As the Lord has revealed to me that I am a Levite descended from the house of Israel, I have to disagree with you on this one. He has a purpose for all of us, just not the same purpose. As I understand it, anyway. Shalom Aleichem.

 

[Helen]

So us Gentiles who have believed in Christ our Savior have no chance, because we are not Jewish and part of the 12 tribes?

And people are stupid enough to really believe that! Hahah! ( hoping your question was not a serIous one! )
When one thinks of ALL the people of God since the beginning of time …it is so amazing that some/many people are shallow enough to actually believe that.

 

[Helen]

As the Lord has revealed to me that I am a Levite descended from the house of Israel, I have to disagree with you on this one. He has a purpose for all of us, just not the same purpose. As I understand it, anyway. Shalom Aleichem.

I didn’t say it…Paul did .
“Israel” are the seed of faithful Abraham , not only the blood washed literal decency of Jacob .