Understanding the Unquenchable Fire.

[rwb]

Christ gives you a 'robe of righteousness', but doesnt make anyone 'immortal' or give the gift of eternal life till after the resurrection, which is bodily and only then are we changed. Christ will resurrect and this means recreate dust like He did with the blind man, and in this case the righteous dead, or "dead in Christ", and breathe into them the breath of eternal life, and they will be raised up into the clouds along with the living saints, and taken to Heaven.

When Jesus called Lazarus from the tomb, we see what it means to be in the grave, or dead, and there is nothing 'immortal'.
John 11:43-44
43 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.
44 And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.

Nothing at all is stated about what transpired during those four days in which Lazarus was dead. Christ made no statement, neither did Martha or even Lazarus himself. The fact, of course, is that there was nothing to report about what happened after he died, no bright lights or gentle clouds or about the realm of the dead, simply because he had experienced the sleep of death which is a state of absolute silence and oblivion. Lazarus was not immortal, and had no consciousness or entity with his mind or ability to think, continue, he was just in the grave.

But Lazarus died before Christ defeated sin and death. He did not have the Holy Spirit to give him eternal/everlasting spiritual life because Christ had not yet sent His Spirit to be within us, and none could go to heaven until after the resurrection of Christ. What is true of all who died in faith before the first advent of Christ is that if they physically died in faith, the parable of Lazarus & the rich man shows the place of the dead for the righteous in the earth was separate from the place for the unrighteous dead, and this was called Abraham's bosom in the parable. Lazarus was called up from the physically dead to be physically alive again, not forever, but to die again. That to prove Christ has power to give life to the dead.

Old testament faithful saints after physical death would be supernaturally spiritually alive through Christ's Spirit after Christ resurrected from the dead and before ascending to heaven first descended into the lower parts of the earth, called Abraham's bosom, to set the captives of death free.

John 3:13 (KJV) And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Ephesians 4:8-10 (KJV) Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

 

[Ziggy]

Christ gives you a 'robe of righteousness', but doesnt make anyone 'immortal' or give the gift of eternal life till after the resurrection, which is bodily and only then are we changed. Christ will resurrect and this means recreate dust like He did with the blind man, and in this case the righteous dead, or "dead in Christ", and breathe into them the breath of eternal life, and they will be raised up into the clouds along with the living saints, and taken to Heaven.

When Jesus called Lazarus from the tomb, we see what it means to be in the grave, or dead, and there is nothing 'immortal'.
John 11:43-44
43 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.
44 And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.

Nothing at all is stated about what transpired during those four days in which Lazarus was dead. Christ made no statement, neither did Martha or even Lazarus himself. The fact, of course, is that there was nothing to report about what happened after he died, no bright lights or gentle clouds or about the realm of the dead, simply because he had experienced the sleep of death which is a state of absolute silence and oblivion. Lazarus was not immortal, and had no consciousness or entity with his mind or ability to think, continue, he was just in the grave.

Had a thought...
So while Lazarus was dead he was sleeping in Abraham's bosom, but what about the Rich man's fate.

2Sa 12:2
The rich man had exceeding many flocks and herds:
2Sa 12:4
And there came a traveller unto the rich man, and he spared to take of his own flock and of his own herd, to dress for the wayfaring man that was come unto him; but took the poor man's lamb, and dressed it for the man that was come to him.

Job 27:19
The rich man shall lie down, but he shall not be gathered: he openeth his eyes, and he is not.

Luk 12:16
And he spake a parable unto them, saying, The ground of a certain rich man brought forth plentifully:
Luk 12:17
And he thought within himself, saying, What shall I do, because I have no room where to bestow my fruits?
Luk 12:18
And he said, This will I do: I will pull down my barns, and build greater; and there will I bestow all my fruits and my goods.
Luk 12:19
And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry.
Luk 12:20
But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided?

Mat 13:10
And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
Mat 13:13
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

So that leaves us with Lazarus and the rich man. What are we not seeing, or not hearing, or not understanding, that he spoke of this in a parable?

Was Lazarus a rich man? The bible doesn't say.
Jhn 11:1
Now a certain man was sick, named Lazarus, of Bethany, the town of Mary and her sister Martha.
Jhn 11:2
(It was that Mary which anointed the Lord with ointment, and wiped his feet with her hair, whose brother Lazarus was sick. )

consider the ointment:

Mar 14:3
And being in Bethany in the house of Simon the leper, as he sat at meat, there came a woman having an alabaster box of ointment of spikenard very precious; and she brake the box, and poured it on his head.
Mar 14:4
And there were some that had indignation within themselves, and said, Why was this waste of the ointment made?
Mar 14:5
For it might have been sold for more than three hundred pence, and have been given to the poor. And they murmured against her.

Is it possible that Lazarus is both the sick (or poor in spirit) and also a rich man in the world?

another anointing... Mary came and anointed Jesus on his head with very precious oil. (Carnal)

Luk 4:18
The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
Luk 4:19
To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
Luk 4:21
And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

Jhn 11:24
Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
Jhn 11:25
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Jhn 11:26
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

When Martha confessed that she believed in Jesus and the resurrection, and let's say Lazarus was a worldly man, because I'm just speculating.

Jhn 4:49
The nobleman saith unto him, Sir, come down ere my child die.
Jhn 4:50
Jesus saith unto him, Go thy way; thy son liveth. And the man believed the word that Jesus had spoken unto him, and he went his way.
Jhn 4:51
And as he was now going down, his servants met him, and told him, saying, Thy son liveth.
Jhn 4:52
Then enquired he of them the hour when he began to amend. And they said unto him, Yesterday at the seventh hour the fever left him.
Jhn 4:53
So the father knew that it was at the same hour, in the which Jesus said unto him, Thy son liveth: and himself believed, and his whole house.

Was it Mary and Martha's faith that saved Lazarus the rich man with a poor spirit?

Luk 16:26
And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

Only faith in Jesus can fix that great gulf. Like a bridge over troubled water, I will lay me down....

Simply speculating. I don't know if Lazarus was rich, but the anoinment Mary had was very precious and expensive.
And she anointed Jesus's head but Lazarus stank after 4 days.
She could have saved it for Lazarus' burial but she gave it to the Lord.

Mar 12:41
And Jesus sat over against the treasury, and beheld how the people cast money into the treasury: and many that were rich cast in much.
Mar 12:42
And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing.
Mar 12:43
And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury:
Mar 12:44
For all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living.

The bible is like a song to me, it sings.
I don't know if Lazarus, Mary and Martha's brother is the same Lazarus in the parable.
But I believe the rich man is Lazarus's old man, and the resurrected Lazarus is the new man.

Just peeling the ole onion..
layer, by layer, by layer...

Psa 85:10
Mercy and truth are met together; righteousness and peace have kissed each other.
Psa 28:7
The LORD is my strength and my shield; my heart trusted in him, and I am helped: therefore my heart greatly rejoiceth; and with my song will I praise him.

HUGS!

 

[Ziggy]

If a Christian ever finds themselves in prison, it's time to start a prison ministry!

If a Christian ever finds themselves in a communist re-education camp, it's time to start a re-education camp ministry!

I often think that if Chrisians were to go out and evangelize the illegal immigrants coming over the border.
Those gates would be shut in a blink of an eye.
Just sayin
Hugs

 

[Bob Estey]

If a Christian ever finds themselves in prison, it's time to start a prison ministry!

If a Christian ever finds themselves in a communist re-education camp, it's time to start a re-education camp ministry!

I took part in a prison ministry - Nevada Kairos. I wasn't an inmate myself - I came in with the others once a month. It was a tremendous ministry, I thought. The inmates that took part were a great group of people.

If you tried to do that in a communist country, they might shoot you.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

I often think that if Chrisians were to go out and evangelize the illegal immigrants coming over the border.
Those gates would be shut in a blink of an eye.

No so... the lure of free stuff and living in a country better then the slums they are coming from will always keep them coming here.

Besides, there are groups evangelizing them... that's one of the bright spots about this.

But, they have an uphill battle since most of these folks are indoctrinated with the fake catholic "gospel"

 

[Ziggy]

No so... the lure of free stuff and living in a country better then the slums they are coming from will always keep them coming here.

Besides, there are groups evangelizing them... that's one of the bright spots about this.

But, they have an uphill battle since most of these folks are indoctrinated with the fake catholic "gospel"

I meant the government closing the borders. not the people.
Hugs

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

I meant the government closing the borders. not the people.

They aren't going to close the borders and they don't mind if actual Christians are witnessing to them.,... they know the devil will come behind them and teach false doctrine and choke most of the Word out of them so they don't bare any fruit (Mark 4:13-20)

 

[Ziggy]

They aren't going to close the borders and they don't mind if actual Christians are witnessing to them.,... they know the devil will come behind them and teach false doctrine and choke most of the Word out of them so they don't bare any fruit (Mark 4:13-20)

Well it's January and a lot of these people coming to places like NY, Boston, Chicago, Detroit, it's cold up here from what they're used to.
It's a long ways between here and spring. Even Portland Maine is seeing an increase.
I'm not looking forward to this summer, political wise. I think it's going to get hot to a boiling point.
Not only the normal groups that like to cause havoc on society but we have newcomers to deal with too.
I just wonder what the next emblem or color flag roaming the streets this summer will be.
Perhaps it will be red white and blue. I'm hoping anyways.
Hugs

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

Meh, it'll be business as usual since most Americans are easily influenced by liberal propaganda coming thru the news media.

In order for their propaganda to work they won't have any big earth shaking riots or attacks as they are saving all that in case their cheating doesn't stop Trump from being elected.

If Trump gets re-elected... Biden may declare martial law and refuse to leave the big house and tell; all his brown shirts to go out and riot and then claim it's all Trump supporters doing all this which is why he has to declare martial law

 

[Ziggy]

Meh, it'll be business as usual since most Americans are easily influenced by liberal propaganda coming thru the news media.

You have to have some positive vibes brother.
I don't know how this is going to turn out.
But see my pillow below?
I believe that.

Hugs

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

I don't know how this is going to turn out.

I know exactly how it's going to turn out for me... I'm going to spend eternity with the Lord!

I don't know nuthin about the vibe tribe, but I do know some stuff from God's Word!

Romans 8:18
For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

Isaiah 26:3
Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on thee: because he trusteth in thee.

1 Peter 5:7
Cast all your care upon him; for he careth for you.

Philippians 4:6
Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.

Our focus should not be on what they are going to do... but what the Lord is doing in our own personal lives first and from their we seek to share the gospel with others.

Living on Club Earth ain't nothing but living in a clown show anyways...

 

[Ziggy]

I know exactly how it's going to turn out for me... I'm going to spend eternity with the Lord!

I don't know nuthin about the vibe tribe, but I do know some stuff from God's Word!

Romans 8:18
For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

Isaiah 26:3
Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on thee: because he trusteth in thee.

1 Peter 5:7
Cast all your care upon him; for he careth for you.

Philippians 4:6
Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.

Our focus should not be on what they are going to do... but what the Lord is doing in our own personal lives first and from their we seek to share the gospel with others.

Living on Club Earth ain't nothing but living in a clown show anyways...

More like a soap opera.
This one's getting spicy.

You have to keep your eyes on whats going on around you. Because if your not paying attention, the devil's gonna creep up behind you and falsely accuse you of all kinds of things, and you have to know his tactics.
Otherwise why wear Armour.
We are at war with the spiritual realm which is hovering it's darkness over this country. And if we can't see the enemy, we'll just be batting at the wind and not knowing how to defend against the wiles of the devil.
You can't go walking through the world ignorant with your eyes closed and then blame someone else when you don't see the train coming and your standing in the tracks of it.

You don't have to be a partaker with it. But we should be witnesses to what's unfolding on the earth.

1Pe 5:8
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
1Pe 5:9
Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.

How can you resist if you don't know the weapons used against you?
We're in a very evil and mind bending, misinformational, seductive, and coercive, fake and deceptive battle of spirits.
They've twisted justice and truth and honesty so far out of whack, that if your not paying attention you'll get caught up in the lies and the deceptions.

You have to watch, you have to be vigilant, you have to be focused. Because they won't stop until they try to catch us all in their net of deception.

So I watch the soap opera and the clown show unfolding before me.
And I see how they operate and twist things and malign things and decieve people with their lies.
So when I am appraoched with a question or accusation, I don't buy into it line and sinker.

I have the ammunition to counter the narrative with truth and facts.

I know where I'm going, and I know where I am.
It's not about me, it's about where this crazy world is headed. I'm just here for the ride.
LOL
Hugs

 

[BarneyFife]

And parable are TRUE teachings.. that contain TRUTH.

And the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is the only one for which folks will go down swinging while insisting it is a true story.

There is no place in the Bible that says the stories told in parables contain only actual events.

The very nature of parabolic/allegorical/metaphorical teaching is representing a concept by something other than the concept being taught.

Other parables contain human interaction that is never claimed to be the object of the lesson being taught.

.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

Jesus is delivering TRUTH thru His parables... the devil claims He is not.
As always, I think I'll stick with Jesus!

 

[Hobie]

And the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is the only one for which folks will go down swinging while insisting it is a true story.

There is no place in the Bible that says the stories told in parables contain only actual events.

The very nature of parabolic/allegorical/metaphorical teaching is representing a concept by something other than the concept being taught.

Other parables contain human interaction that is never claimed to be the object of the lesson being taught.

.

People have to understand why Christ gave them, as these were sheepherders and fisherman, etc.. The learned ones were the ones literally trying to take Him out..

 

[Hobie]

Had a thought...
So while Lazarus was dead he was sleeping in Abraham's bosom, but what about the Rich man's fate.

2Sa 12:2
The rich man had exceeding many flocks and herds:
2Sa 12:4
And there came a traveller unto the rich man, and he spared to take of his own flock and of his own herd, to dress for the wayfaring man that was come unto him; but took the poor man's lamb, and dressed it for the man that was come to him.

Job 27:19
The rich man shall lie down, but he shall not be gathered: he openeth his eyes, and he is not.

Luk 12:16
And he spake a parable unto them, saying, The ground of a certain rich man brought forth plentifully:
Luk 12:17
And he thought within himself, saying, What shall I do, because I have no room where to bestow my fruits?
Luk 12:18
And he said, This will I do: I will pull down my barns, and build greater; and there will I bestow all my fruits and my goods.
Luk 12:19
And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry.
Luk 12:20
But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided?

Mat 13:10
And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
Mat 13:13
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

So that leaves us with Lazarus and the rich man. What are we not seeing, or not hearing, or not understanding, that he spoke of this in a parable?

Was Lazarus a rich man? The bible doesn't say.
Jhn 11:1
Now a certain man was sick, named Lazarus, of Bethany, the town of Mary and her sister Martha.
Jhn 11:2
(It was that Mary which anointed the Lord with ointment, and wiped his feet with her hair, whose brother Lazarus was sick. )

consider the ointment:

Mar 14:3
And being in Bethany in the house of Simon the leper, as he sat at meat, there came a woman having an alabaster box of ointment of spikenard very precious; and she brake the box, and poured it on his head.
Mar 14:4
And there were some that had indignation within themselves, and said, Why was this waste of the ointment made?
Mar 14:5
For it might have been sold for more than three hundred pence, and have been given to the poor. And they murmured against her.

Is it possible that Lazarus is both the sick (or poor in spirit) and also a rich man in the world?

another anointing... Mary came and anointed Jesus on his head with very precious oil. (Carnal)

Luk 4:18
The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
Luk 4:19
To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
Luk 4:21
And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

Jhn 11:24
Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
Jhn 11:25
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Jhn 11:26
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

When Martha confessed that she believed in Jesus and the resurrection, and let's say Lazarus was a worldly man, because I'm just speculating.

Jhn 4:49
The nobleman saith unto him, Sir, come down ere my child die.
Jhn 4:50
Jesus saith unto him, Go thy way; thy son liveth. And the man believed the word that Jesus had spoken unto him, and he went his way.
Jhn 4:51
And as he was now going down, his servants met him, and told him, saying, Thy son liveth.
Jhn 4:52
Then enquired he of them the hour when he began to amend. And they said unto him, Yesterday at the seventh hour the fever left him.
Jhn 4:53
So the father knew that it was at the same hour, in the which Jesus said unto him, Thy son liveth: and himself believed, and his whole house.

Was it Mary and Martha's faith that saved Lazarus the rich man with a poor spirit?

Luk 16:26
And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

Only faith in Jesus can fix that great gulf. Like a bridge over troubled water, I will lay me down....

Simply speculating. I don't know if Lazarus was rich, but the anoinment Mary had was very precious and expensive.
And she anointed Jesus's head but Lazarus stank after 4 days.
She could have saved it for Lazarus' burial but she gave it to the Lord.

Mar 12:41
And Jesus sat over against the treasury, and beheld how the people cast money into the treasury: and many that were rich cast in much.
Mar 12:42
And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing.
Mar 12:43
And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury:
Mar 12:44
For all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living.

The bible is like a song to me, it sings.
I don't know if Lazarus, Mary and Martha's brother is the same Lazarus in the parable.
But I believe the rich man is Lazarus's old man, and the resurrected Lazarus is the new man.

Just peeling the ole onion..
layer, by layer, by layer...

Psa 85:10
Mercy and truth are met together; righteousness and peace have kissed each other.
Psa 28:7
The LORD is my strength and my shield; my heart trusted in him, and I am helped: therefore my heart greatly rejoiceth; and with my song will I praise him.

HUGS!

No, you have Lazarus the brother of Martha and Mary then a parable, no connection.

 

[Hobie]

The fire has a purpose and when its done consuming, it completes the purpose and is finished. Here is a very good explanation..
Matthew 3:12
Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Matthew 3:12 can be hard to understand if you come to the text assuming that the punishment of the wicked is eternal torment, because it simply doesn’t support that.

Let’s start with the phrase “He will burn up.” These words imply total destruction. The Greek verb used here is κατακαίω and according to the Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance it means “to burn down (to the ground), i.e. consume wholly — burn (up, utterly).” Since the definition of consume is “to do away completely” or “destroy,” it leaves no room for a doctrine of eternal conscious torment.

John is teaching us here that when Jesus returns in glory to judge the living and the dead, the wicked will not inherit life. Instead, they will be destroyed. His words are consistent with the witness of the Old Testament (see Psalm 37) and Jesus’s own words: “For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whoever believes in him will not perish, but have eternal life” (John 3:16, italics added). In the Bible, the opposite of eternal life is death, not eternal conscious torment (Romans 6:23).

But what of the “unquenchable fire”? Unquenchable simply means that the fire can’t be extinguished prematurely, either because God won’t allow it or because it’s simply too intense to control, like a raging wildfire.

Just because a fire is unquenchable doesn’t mean it will burn forever. Fires have a natural way of dying out. When you throw a log in your fireplace, it burns and then turns into ash. If you don’t add more logs, the fire burns down as the fuel runs out! Once the wicked are consumed by fire, the fire will die out. The effects of the fire are eternal (i.e. the destruction of the wicked is permanent), but the flame is not.

So if the wicked are not eternally tormented, what does this do for our theology?

I think it paints a more accurate picture of who God really is. If you grew up believing that those who reject God suffer for an eternity in hell, you’ve probably secretly wondered how God could be good, loving, and just. It seems incredibly evil and cruel to torture people endlessly for 70 or 80 years worth of sin and we think to ourselves, “The punishment should fit the crime!” It’s much easier to affirm God’s goodness, justice and love when we adopt a biblical understanding of the fate of the wicked...."

 

[Ziggy]

No, you have Lazarus the brother of Martha and Mary then a parable, no connection.

The Parable is found in Luke the physician.
And Lazarus, Mary and Martha's brother is found in John the revelator.
Matthew and Mark don't mention him by name.
The physician is telling the parable and the revelator is revealing.

You don't find that a coincidence?
I find it interesting.

Hugs

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

So while Lazarus was dead he was sleeping in Abraham's bosom, but what about the Rich man's fate.

No, go back and read what Jesus said... Lazarus was wide awake and the rich man was trying to get him to bring him some water... had Lazarus been asleep the rich man would be like "Yo! Lazarus, dude! Wake up! Wake up man and get me some water YO!"

 

[Hobie]

The Parable is found in Luke the physician.
And Lazarus, Mary and Martha's brother is found in John the revelator.
Matthew and Mark don't mention him by name.
The physician is telling the parable and the revelator is revealing.

You don't find that a coincidence?
I find it interesting.

Hugs

No, look at the descriptions

Luke 16:20
And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

John 11:1
Now a certain man was sick, named Lazarus, of Bethany, the town of Mary and her sister Martha.