Hi jiggyfly,
Ok great someone willing to discuss the verses posted.
I see no mention of unending torment here do you? If God intends to torment unbelievers endlessly would Jesus have said that His Father loves his enemies? Wouldn't He have instructed them/us to torture them and then we would be like our Father in heaven?
The point I want to make in this verse is that God loves His enemies and is kind to those who are unthankful and wicked.
Where did Jesus say 'His Father loves His enemies'? I know where Jesus told
us to love
our enemies, but that is a completely different thing.
Yes, God is kind to the unthankful and unjust, but that season
ends when they die.
Hebrews 9:27, 28 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: so Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
1 Thessalonians 1:6 - 10 And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost: so that ye were ensamples to all that believe in Macedonia and Achaia. For from you sounded out the word of the Lord not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith to God-ward is spread abroad; so that we need not to speak any thing. For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God; and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, [even] Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
2 Thessalonians 2:7 - 12 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now lets [will let], until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: that they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
I am not choosing scriptures which skirt round the unavoidable conclusion that God is going to destroy evil-doers. Every evil-doer has had the same (perhaps more) opportunity to turn away from sin, and has chosen not to. God is not mocked. Vengeance is His.
Job 8:20 Behold, God will not cast away a perfect [man], neither will he help the evil doers: {help...: Heb. take the ungodly by the hand}
Psalms 26:5 I have hated the congregation of evil doers; and will not sit with the wicked.
I know these words were written before the revelation of Messiah on earth, but God has not changed. He sent His Son to 'take away sin' for the very purpose that men should be restored to His likeness in this life, and walk in freedom to serve God without fear of death.
The humanistic distaste for God's judgment, as I said before, makes people - Christians - think the cross was so that they could get something for themselves, rather than that God could get something for Himself. He went through that pain to purchase to Himself a Bride. He will have His Bride, no matter how many 'Christians' choose not to embrace the cross, (thereby missing the door beyond which is resurrection life).
I believe God does
love all the peoples of the world, and gave His Son that
all should have the opportunity to be saved; but people who choose
not to 'retain God in their knowledge'
in this life,
will wake up when they die, to find that God has not changed nor gone away. All the changing and going away was done by them, and like Adam, they will bear the consequences of their choice. While they were on this earth they were happy to receive of His bounty - rain, sunshine, provision, spouse, children, houses, stock and land - and for their unwillingness to render Him due thanks and worship, He has a just reply.
Romans 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leads thee to repentance? 5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up to thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8, 9 But to them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that does evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that works good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: 11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
What you are asking for in UR (or 'US', as Mark suggested), is that God should start respecting persons.
You want Him to overlook the sins of those who never repented and never trusted in Christ for salvation through His blood, and to treat them in exactly the same way as those who obeyed Him.
How can that be justice for the Lamb of God? His death atoned for all sin, and
on the condition that all sinners repent, all sinners will be released from the bondage of eternal death. That is not a difficult concept. Children can grasp it, so there is plenty of hope for adults.
Do you not realise that many a sinner knows they are choosing to be judged, when they die rather than now? And they make what may be a flawed decision to take that risk? But nevertheless they are as much in possession of their faculties as Adam was when He disobeyed?
I realise there is also the matter of self-deception, but no-one is born into self-deception. It is a course embarked upon while being dishonest with self about the legitimate claims God has on one's life because Christ has died (for the sins of the whole world). Paul undermines even that aspect, by pointing out how God has revealed Himself in creation to such a degree, that everyone who turns from Him is 'without excuse'. Rom 1:19, 20. Scripture is littered with examples of God's goodness to mankind, and yet individuals still prefer not to acknowledge Him.
He has a right to be angry.
There is quite a bit about God's anger in scripture, and it is very relevant to this discussion. The idea that God ought not to hold people responsible for their choices, also undermines His own character as
totally just. This is the point Paul is making in
Romans 3:26 To declare, [I say], at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him who believes in Jesus. This is the only 'justification' on offer from God.
Proverbs 17:15 He that justifies the wicked, and he that condemns the just, even they both [are] abomination to the LORD.
On the cross, Jesus Christ was made an abomination to God, for our sakes.
How is He to 'see the travail of His soul and be satisfied', if the entire basis on which He agreed to go to the cross with His Father, has been altered outside that agreement, when it comes to the 'day of judgment'? How can God be seen to be
just, then? The whole basis of Jesus' ministry, was His love and trust of His Father's
judgment. Father cannot backtrack now, without
being untrustworthy.
And all that said, how would we be able to know that those who have trusted in the gospel would receive what they believed for?
Psalm 138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple,
and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth:
for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.