Was Adam Imparted Free Will From The Beginning Of Creation?

[Tong2020]

That we stop thinking? According to many on these forums, the fact that so many do not think critically any more, must be God's will.

Do you think that, with regards the truth written in scriptures, critical thinking is something that God wants for us to do or that we should be doing?

With regards the subject of this thread, that is, concerning the issue of whether man was created with or without free will, do you think it needs critical thinking to settle this? Or it only needs having the sense common to man to settle this?

Tong
R4161

 

[Kermos]

<<<Adam missed the mark, and you miss the mark such that based upon your writing you assert that a "will" for Adam which is a "will" in the likeness of God's "will" - a duplication of God's "will" which cannot oppose God - you assert that such a "will" for Adam could oppose God.>>>

Let your thoughts be yours and not make it appear that they are mine or other’s thoughts. If not, you are good only to talking to yourself.

Tong
R4138

I portray the treasure of your heart accurately as revealed from your writings (Matthew 15:18).

Sin is missing the mark - a crime against God. All of this is in accord with Paul's writing in Romans 5:14.

Adam missed the mark, and you miss the mark such that based upon your writing you assert that a "will" for Adam which is a "will" in the likeness of God's "will" - a duplication of God's "will" which cannot oppose God - you assert that such a "will" for Adam could oppose God.

Yet Adam did sin has recorded in Genesis 3:6.

Therefore you wickedly ascribed ability to Adam that exceeds God's own ability.

Furthermore based upon your philosophy God does have the ability to oppose God - which by extension means that the promises of God are worthless. Such a philosophy is evil.

Your heart adds "Adam chose..." into the Word of God recorded in Genesis 1:1-31 Genesis 2:1- 25 Genesis 3:1-24.

Furthermore, your heart subtracts the Apostle Paul's writing that Adam did not willingly eat of the tree because Paul conveyed that nothing in creation willingly subjected anyting in creation to futility with Paul's writing of "the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly" (Romans 8:20).

You proclaim "the word of you". For you adulterate the Word of God with "choose" such that it is no longer the Word of God.

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will neither.

 

[Tong2020]

I portray the treasure of your heart accurately as revealed from your writings (Matthew 15:18).

Sin is missing the mark - a crime against God. All of this is in accord with Paul's writing in Romans 5:14.

Adam missed the mark, and you miss the mark such that based upon your writing you assert that a "will" for Adam which is a "will" in the likeness of God's "will" - a duplication of God's "will" which cannot oppose God - you assert that such a "will" for Adam could oppose God.

Yet Adam did sin has recorded in Genesis 3:6.

Therefore you wickedly ascribed ability to Adam that exceeds God's own ability.

Furthermore based upon your philosophy God does have the ability to oppose God - which by extension means that the promises of God are worthless. Such a philosophy is evil.

Your heart adds "Adam chose..." into the Word of God recorded in Genesis 1:1-31 Genesis 2:1- 25 Genesis 3:1-24.

Furthermore, your heart subtracts the Apostle Paul's writing that Adam did not willingly eat of the tree because Paul conveyed that nothing in creation willingly subjected anyting in creation to futility with Paul's writing of "the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly" (Romans 8:20).

You proclaim "the word of you". For you adulterate the Word of God with "choose" such that it is no longer the Word of God.

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will neither.

As I said, let your thoughts be yours and not make it appear that they are mine or other’s thoughts. If not, you are good only to talking to yourself.

Tong
R4163

 

[Kermos]

Not scriptures, but you. A repeated misuse of Romans 8:20-22.

You believe that God created and made man with a will, which you call “bond-will”, yet you cannot seem to give a clear answer to the question “Did Adam had a bond-will before he ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?”.

There you go calling the Apostle Paul a liar again.

Again, your writings reveal the treasure of your heart (Matthew 15:18), that is your self-will reviling of Majesty on High (2 Peter 2:9-10)

Your heart says "Adam" (Genesis 2:7) is not part of "the whole creation", and Paul wrote "the whole creation" in Romans 8:20-22.

Your heart says "tree" (Genesis 2:9) is not part of "the whole creation", and Paul wrote "the whole creation" in Romans 8:20-22.

Your heart says "ate" (Genesis 3:6) is not an event that occurred prior to "now", and Paul wrote "until now" in Romans 8:20-22.

Your heart says "not willingly" occurs without application to "the whole creation" and "until now", and Paul wrote "not willingly" and "the whole creation" and "until now" in Romans 8:20-22.

In "Adam ate not willingly of the tree", Paul covered "Adam" which is a person as part of "the whole creation" in Romans 8:20-22.

In "Adam ate not willingly of the tree", Paul covered "tree" which is a thing as part of "the whole creation" in Romans 8:20-22.

In "Adam ate not willingly of the tree", Paul covered "ate" which is an action in time of "until now" in Romans 8:20-22.

In "Adam ate not willingly of the tree", Paul covered "not willingly" in Romans 8:20-22.

Paul most certainly included "Adam ate not willingly of the tree" in Romans 8:20-22.

See that you call Paul a liar about "Adam" as part of "the whole creation" in Romans 8:20-22.

See that you call Paul a liar about "tree" as part of "the whole creation" in Romans 8:20-22.

See that you call Paul a liar about "ate" as occurring prior to "until now" in Romans 8:20-22.

See that you call Paul a liar about "not willingly" in Paul's application to "the whole creation" in Romans 8:20-22.

And, this, sir, is Romans 8:20-22 in context.

The Apostle Paul conveys that Adam ate not willingly of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil subjecting the whole creation to futility (Romans 8:20-22).

Therefore, the kind of "will" that Adam was created with, if any kind, is irrelevant to Adam eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Not only that, you are asking a question that is scrupulously covered earlier in this thread.

Too much of your “according to free-willian philosophy”. Take that to the free-willian philosophers.

Salvation is of God, by God, by grace. Now, take the part “according free-willian philosophy” to the free-willian philosophers.

Ad hominem does not do any good. Neither is the use of a strawman.

Salvation is of God, by God, by grace.

God have by the election of grace, saves a people, His people. He has chosen them from the beginning for salvation. These people are revealed in time. Who are they? They are the ones who are given to the Son by the Father, who can come to Jesus Christ, that is, those who will be manifested to believe in Him.

You are a free-willian philosopher because you conveyed in this thread that people have the ability to choose Jesus in defiance of the Lord's words "you did not choose Me" (John 15:16).

According to free-willian philosophy, human salvation is contingent upon a person choosing Jesus unto salvation, so no salvation occurs without such a person's choice toward Jesus.

Now back to your incomplete statement to which I appended clarification which makes your statement complete according to free-willian philosophy.

"The matter of God’s salvation of fallen man is something that belongs only to God" (your words) except salvation for the fallen man cannot happen unless the fallen man chooses God according to free-willian philosophy.

Since you claim man chooses Jesus, then in your heart you call Jesus a deceiver because Lord Jesus says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) to all His own disciples (John 10:27-29) in all time.

That is relevant to your statement.

That is relevant to your philosophy.

That is relevant to free-willian philosophy.

Another misused passage.

There you go calling the Apostle Paul a liar again.

The Apostle Paul identifies Adam as a natural man with "the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual" (1 Corinthians 15:46).

1 Corinthians 15:46 as applicable to the creation account is distasteful to your heart.

Another misused passage.

There you go calling the Apostle Paul a liar again.

The Apostle Paul explains that the commands of God are foolishness to Adam with a "natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised" (1 Corinthians 2:14)

1 Corinthians 2:14 as applicable to the creation account is distasteful to your heart.

Another misused passage.

There you go calling the Apostle Paul a liar again.

The Apostle Paul explains that Adam's flesh opposes the Spirit of God with "the flesh desires against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh. For these are opposed to one another" (Galatians 5:17).

Galatians 5:17 as applicable to the creation account is distasteful to your heart.

The matter of Adam not having knowledge of good and evil has little to do about understanding the commandment. He understand full well what the commandment is, that is, not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the midst of the garden, and that eating it, he will surely die.

Disobedience to God's command by man is evil.

A person willingly disobeying God is doing evil, so you have Adam "willing" to do evil (disobedience) without knowing what evil is.

You claim Adam willingly performed the evil of disobedience against God's command - a thing that Adam's "will" could not "know" because Adam did nor know evil.

YOUR HEART'S CONTENTION IS (1) CONFUSION IN THAT YOU HAVE ADAM "WILLING" TO DO THAT WHICH HE DOES NOT UNDERSTAND AND (2) YOU CALLING THE APOSTLE PAUL A LIAR FOR PAUL CONVEYS THAT ADAM ATE NOT WILLINGLY OF THE TREE OF THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL SUBJECTING THE WHOLE CREATION TO FUTILITY (ROMANS 8:20-22).

In other words, in your heart you have Adam "willing" evil against God's command, yet Adam does not know evil.

You contradict yourself which is confusion, yet "God is not a God of confusion but of peace" (1 Corinthians 14:33).

Yes He did not. What he knew is that God commanded him to not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. That he ate, only shows that he listened to the voice of his wife rather than God, indicating that he believed his wife and did not believe God who told him what will happen to him, the day he eats of the forbidden fruit.

And no free-will choice was indicated in the Word of God "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat from it'" (Genesis 3:17).

According to you and not scriptures.

There you go calling the Apostle Paul a liar again.

The Apostle Paul explains that the commands of God are foolishness to Adam with a "natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised" (1 Corinthians 2:14)

God's commands are immeasurably valuable, yet God's command (Genesis 2:16-17) was foolishness to Adam (1 Corinthians 2:14).

Your confusion is immense.

According to you and not scriptures.

Tong
R4139

There you go calling the Apostle Paul a liar again.

According to scripture, Adam (a natural man, 1 Corinthians 15:46) did not understand (the things of God were foolishness to Adam, 1 Corinthians 2:14) everything about God's command of "You shall not eat from it" regarding the tree (Genesis 3:17).

Moreover, the natural man Adam opposes the thing of God (Galatians 5:17), that is, God's command of "You shall not eat from it" regarding the tree (Genesis 3:17).

You proclaim "the word of you". For you adulterate the Word of God with "choose" and "willingly" such that it is no longer the Word of God.

Still, no free will written in the creation account (Genesis 1:1-31 Genesis 2:1- 25 Genesis 3:1-24), with Paul in accord for he conveyed that Adam "not willingly" subjected creation to futility by eating of the tree forbiddenl for eating since Paul included all time prior to Paul's birth by his writing "until now" (Romans 8:20-22).

"YHWH is righteous in all his ways and holy in all his works" (Psalm 145:17)

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will neither.

 

[Tong2020]

There you go calling the Apostle Paul a liar again.

Again, your writings reveal the treasure of your heart (Matthew 15:18), that is your self-will reviling of Majesty on High (2 Peter 2:9-10)

Your heart says "Adam" (Genesis 2:7) is not part of "the whole creation", and Paul wrote "the whole creation" in Romans 8:20-22.

Your heart says "tree" (Genesis 2:9) is not part of "the whole creation", and Paul wrote "the whole creation" in Romans 8:20-22.

Your heart says "ate" (Genesis 3:6) is not an event that occurred prior to "now", and Paul wrote "until now" in Romans 8:20-22.

Your heart says "not willingly" occurs without application to "the whole creation" and "until now", and Paul wrote "not willingly" and "the whole creation" and "until now" in Romans 8:20-22.

In "Adam ate not willingly of the tree", Paul covered "Adam" which is a person as part of "the whole creation" in Romans 8:20-22.

In "Adam ate not willingly of the tree", Paul covered "tree" which is a thing as part of "the whole creation" in Romans 8:20-22.

In "Adam ate not willingly of the tree", Paul covered "ate" which is an action in time of "until now" in Romans 8:20-22.

In "Adam ate not willingly of the tree", Paul covered "not willingly" in Romans 8:20-22.

Paul most certainly included "Adam ate not willingly of the tree" in Romans 8:20-22.

See that you call Paul a liar about "Adam" as part of "the whole creation" in Romans 8:20-22.

See that you call Paul a liar about "tree" as part of "the whole creation" in Romans 8:20-22.

See that you call Paul a liar about "ate" as occurring prior to "until now" in Romans 8:20-22.

See that you call Paul a liar about "not willingly" in Paul's application to "the whole creation" in Romans 8:20-22.

And, this, sir, is Romans 8:20-22 in context.

The Apostle Paul conveys that Adam ate not willingly of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil subjecting the whole creation to futility (Romans 8:20-22).

Therefore, the kind of "will" that Adam was created with, if any kind, is irrelevant to Adam eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Not only that, you are asking a question that is scrupulously covered earlier in this thread.



You are a free-willian philosopher because you conveyed in this thread that people have the ability to choose Jesus in defiance of the Lord's words "you did not choose Me" (John 15:16).

According to free-willian philosophy, human salvation is contingent upon a person choosing Jesus unto salvation, so no salvation occurs without such a person's choice toward Jesus.

Now back to your incomplete statement to which I appended clarification which makes your statement complete according to free-willian philosophy.

"The matter of God’s salvation of fallen man is something that belongs only to God" (your words) except salvation for the fallen man cannot happen unless the fallen man chooses God according to free-willian philosophy.

Since you claim man chooses Jesus, then in your heart you call Jesus a deceiver because Lord Jesus says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) to all His own disciples (John 10:27-29) in all time.

That is relevant to your statement.

That is relevant to your philosophy.

That is relevant to free-willian philosophy.



There you go calling the Apostle Paul a liar again.

The Apostle Paul identifies Adam as a natural man with "the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual" (1 Corinthians 15:46).

1 Corinthians 15:46 as applicable to the creation account is distasteful to your heart.



There you go calling the Apostle Paul a liar again.

The Apostle Paul explains that the commands of God are foolishness to Adam with a "natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised" (1 Corinthians 2:14)

1 Corinthians 2:14 as applicable to the creation account is distasteful to your heart.



There you go calling the Apostle Paul a liar again.

The Apostle Paul explains that Adam's flesh opposes the Spirit of God with "the flesh desires against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh. For these are opposed to one another" (Galatians 5:17).

Galatians 5:17 as applicable to the creation account is distasteful to your heart.



Disobedience to God's command by man is evil.

A person willingly disobeying God is doing evil, so you have Adam "willing" to do evil (disobedience) without knowing what evil is.

You claim Adam willingly performed the evil of disobedience against God's command - a thing that Adam's "will" could not "know" because Adam did nor know evil.

YOUR HEART'S CONTENTION IS (1) CONFUSION IN THAT YOU HAVE ADAM "WILLING" TO DO THAT WHICH HE DOES NOT UNDERSTAND AND (2) YOU CALLING THE APOSTLE PAUL A LIAR FOR PAUL CONVEYS THAT ADAM ATE NOT WILLINGLY OF THE TREE OF THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL SUBJECTING THE WHOLE CREATION TO FUTILITY (ROMANS 8:20-22).

In other words, in your heart you have Adam "willing" evil against God's command, yet Adam does not know evil.

You contradict yourself which is confusion, yet "God is not a God of confusion but of peace" (1 Corinthians 14:33).



And no free-will choice was indicated in the Word of God "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat from it'" (Genesis 3:17).



There you go calling the Apostle Paul a liar again.

The Apostle Paul explains that the commands of God are foolishness to Adam with a "natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised" (1 Corinthians 2:14)

God's commands are immeasurably valuable, yet God's command (Genesis 2:16-17) was foolishness to Adam (1 Corinthians 2:14).

Your confusion is immense.



There you go calling the Apostle Paul a liar again.

According to scripture, Adam (a natural man, 1 Corinthians 15:46) did not understand (the things of God were foolishness to Adam, 1 Corinthians 2:14) everything about God's command of "You shall not eat from it" regarding the tree (Genesis 3:17).

Moreover, the natural man Adam opposes the thing of God (Galatians 5:17), that is, God's command of "You shall not eat from it" regarding the tree (Genesis 3:17).

You proclaim "the word of you". For you adulterate the Word of God with "choose" and "willingly" such that it is no longer the Word of God.

Still, no free will written in the creation account (Genesis 1:1-31 Genesis 2:1- 25 Genesis 3:1-24), with Paul in accord for he conveyed that Adam "not willingly" subjected creation to futility by eating of the tree forbiddenl for eating since Paul included all time prior to Paul's birth by his writing "until now" (Romans 8:20-22).

"YHWH is righteous in all his ways and holy in all his works" (Psalm 145:17)

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will neither.

I denounce any and all ad hominem statements that could be found therein.

I denounce any and all false accusations that could be found therein.

I denounce any and all false teachings that could be found therein.

I denounce any and all misuse of scriptures that could be found therein.

To the readers, beware. Plenty of scriptures cited does not necessarily mean to say that such a post is biblical and sound. In such cases, we will do well to do what the Bereans did in Acts 17 ~ search the Scriptures daily to find out whether what is being said in reference to cited scriptures were so.

Tong2020 said: ↑
Yes He did not. What he knew is that God commanded him to not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. That he ate, only shows that he listened to the voice of his wife rather than God, indicating that he believed his wife and did not believe God who told him what will happen to him, the day he eats of the forbidden fruit.

And no free-will choice was indicated in the Word of God "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat from it'" (Genesis 3:17).

There was God’s voice and there was Eve’s voice, concerning the eating and not eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Two voices. And we know whose voice Adam listened to. Adam listened to the voice of his wife rather than God, indicating that he believed his wife and did not believe God.

I am saying this, not to argue with you, but for the readers’ sake. For I find arguing with you a useless exercise.

Tong
R4166

 

[Brakelite]

To the readers, beware. Plenty of scriptures cited does not necessarily mean to say that such a post is biblical and sound. In such cases, we will do well to do what the Bereans did in Acts 17 ~ search the Scriptures daily to find out whether what is being said in

Which in a sense is critical thinking. Be a sceptic when others attempt to prove something from scripture that doesn't gel with your own conscience. Nothing wrong with healthy scepticism... Especially on forums. Bereans were sceptics. Take nothing at face value especially when your eternal destiny is at stake.

 

[Brakelite]

Do you think that, with regards the truth written in scriptures, critical thinking is something that God wants for us to do or that we should be doing?

With regards the subject of this thread, that is, concerning the issue of whether man was created with or without free will, do you think it needs critical thinking to settle this? Or it only needs having the sense common to man to settle this?

Tong
R4161

Kermos would have us all believe that whatever we think, it's because Good imposed His will on us all. That no-one can think for themselves or make their own decisions. In other words, even the most vile form of lust that bounces around in the mind of man is there only because God wanted it there. Completely removes personal responsibility for anything in this life.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
To the readers, beware. Plenty of scriptures cited does not necessarily mean to say that such a post is biblical and sound. In such cases, we will do well to do what the Bereans did in Acts 17 ~ search the Scriptures daily to find out whether what is being said in

Which in a sense is critical thinking. Be a sceptic when others attempt to prove something from scripture that doesn't gel with your own conscience. Nothing wrong with healthy scepticism... Especially on forums. Bereans were sceptics. Take nothing at face value especially when your eternal destiny is at stake.

I don’t see that as critical thinking, but being diligent and careful.

Tong
R4170

 

[Tong2020]

Kermos would have us all believe that whatever we think, it's because Good imposed His will on us all. That no-one can think for themselves or make their own decisions. In other words, even the most vile form of lust that bounces around in the mind of man is there only because God wanted it there. Completely removes personal responsibility for anything in this life.

Kermos limited the definition of freewill in this thread. So what he was meaning to refer to when he talks about freewill here concerns only the choosing of God, and later, specifically of Jesus Christ. That is the reason of all the confusion in his exchanges with posters here. He had, by limiting the definition of freewill, different from the common understanding of what freewill is, made quite a mess here.

What he wants us all to believe is that man was not created with free will, but with what he calls a ‘bond-will’, and that Adam was created with no ability to choose God and Jesus Christ.

Tong
R4171

 

[Brakelite]

I don’t see that as critical thinking, but being diligent and careful.

Tong
R4170

I think it's the same thing. I don't mean critical thinking in the sense of textual criticism. That's another beast altogether. Critical thinking... As you say taking care and being diligent, means when you hear something spoken of as being 'truth', consider carefully where that truth is coming from, what it will inevitably lead to, the ramifications of accepting it, and how does it compare with the whole of scripture.

 

[Tong2020]

I think it's the same thing. I don't mean critical thinking in the sense of textual criticism. That's another beast altogether. Critical thinking... As you say taking care and being diligent, means when you hear something spoken of as being 'truth', consider carefully where that truth is coming from, what it will inevitably lead to, the ramifications of accepting it, and how does it compare with the whole of scripture.

Well if you mean that to be critical thinking…I could submit.

And yes, every diligent and careful child of God should not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world (1 John 4:1).

Tong
R4172

 

[Kermos]

Apparently John 20:31 is another misused passage here.

<<<John's writings are for us believers to believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God>>>

???

Tong
R4140

Now, your heart conveys that the Apostle John's writing does not apply to the Apostle John's writing.

You are profoundly confused, yet "God is not a God of confusion but of peace" (1 Corinthians 14:33).

Truly, John 20:31 is spiritually applied accurately in the following.

JOHN'S WRITINGS FOR US BELIEVERS

The Apostle John wrote "these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name" (John 20:31).

Among the writings of John includes the statements of Jesus "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19). These sayings of Jesus Christ, Lord and God (John 20:28), are part and parcel of the exclusive attribute of Jesus with respect to choice in the salvation of all His sheep in all time.

John's writings are for us believers to believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing we have life in His Name; therefore, belief in Jesus about whom John wrote includes the exclusive centrality of choice reserved to Jesus by Jesus through Jesus in the salvation of all His sheep in all time.

Lord Jesus says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) to all His own disciples (John 10:27-29) in all time.

Related post 1: more disciples present at supper

Related post 2: Free-willian's Claim To Superiority Over The Apostles

Related post 3: The Friend Of Jesus (John 15:15) Is Exclusively Chosen By Jesus (John 15:16)

Related post 4: Lord Jesus says "what I say to you I say to all" believers in Jesus Mark 13:37)

Related post 5: Lord Jesus Prophesies And Declares The Holy Spirit Indwelling Believers In Jesus Thus "You" In John 14-17 Includes All Believers In Jesus In All Time

Related post 6: Lord Jesus' prayer for us believers

Related post 7: Lord Jesus indicates during the supper that more than the 12 apostles were at the supper

Related post 8: John's writings for we believers in all time

Related post 9: Christ binds Christians with communion is by Christ in Christ for Christ

Related post 10: God the Grantor And God the Concealer And God the Revealer

Still, no free will written in the creation account (Genesis 1:1-31 Genesis 2:1- 25 Genesis 3:1-24), with Paul in accord for he conveyed that Adam "not willingly" ate of the tree since Paul included all time prior to Paul's birth by his writing "until now" (Romans 8:20-22).

"YHWH is righteous in all his ways and holy in all his works" (Psalm 145:17)

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will neither.

 

[Tong2020]

Now, your heart conveys that the Apostle John's writing does not apply to the Apostle John's writing.

You are profoundly confused, yet "God is not a God of confusion but of peace" (1 Corinthians 14:33).

Truly, John 20:31 is spiritually applied accurately in the following.

JOHN'S WRITINGS FOR US BELIEVERS

The Apostle John wrote "these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name" (John 20:31).

Among the writings of John includes the statements of Jesus "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19). These sayings of Jesus Christ, Lord and God (John 20:28), are part and parcel of the exclusive attribute of Jesus with respect to choice in the salvation of all His sheep in all time.

John's writings are for us believers to believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing we have life in His Name; therefore, belief in Jesus about whom John wrote includes the exclusive centrality of choice reserved to Jesus by Jesus through Jesus in the salvation of all His sheep in all time.

Lord Jesus says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) to all His own disciples (John 10:27-29) in all time.

Related post 1: more disciples present at supper

Related post 2: Free-willian's Claim To Superiority Over The Apostles

Related post 3: The Friend Of Jesus (John 15:15) Is Exclusively Chosen By Jesus (John 15:16)

Related post 4: Lord Jesus says "what I say to you I say to all" believers in Jesus Mark 13:37)

Related post 5: Lord Jesus Prophesies And Declares The Holy Spirit Indwelling Believers In Jesus Thus "You" In John 14-17 Includes All Believers In Jesus In All Time

Related post 6: Lord Jesus' prayer for us believers

Related post 7: Lord Jesus indicates during the supper that more than the 12 apostles were at the supper

Related post 8: John's writings for we believers in all time

Related post 9: Christ binds Christians with communion is by Christ in Christ for Christ

Related post 10: God the Grantor And God the Concealer And God the Revealer

Still, no free will written in the creation account (Genesis 1:1-31 Genesis 2:1- 25 Genesis 3:1-24), with Paul in accord for he conveyed that Adam "not willingly" ate of the tree since Paul included all time prior to Paul's birth by his writing "until now" (Romans 8:20-22).

"YHWH is righteous in all his ways and holy in all his works" (Psalm 145:17)

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will neither.

I reacted to your post and I quote:

“<<<John's writings are for us believers to believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God>>>”

And my reaction was “???”

And look at your reaction to that. Very long and starts off with and I quote:

“Now, your heart conveys that the Apostle John's writing does not apply to the Apostle John's writing.”

Well…..such fingers you have there, ever ready to point, and quick to conclude, and judge one’s heart.

Regarding that statement of yours, you don’t seem to see any error there, and I quote:

“…for us believers to believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God”

If you still don’t see it, just say so. I will be most willing to spell it out to you.

Tong
R4178

 

[Kermos]

Look at how you try to avoid the Light (John 1:4) for you skipped the following five paragraphs in your reply:

When you wrote "Obey or disobey. Your choice", in effect, you are calling Jesus a deceiving spirit for:

Lord Jesus says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16, includes righteously obeying God)

Lord Jesus says "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).

Lord Jesus says "apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5, includes righteously obeying God).

Lord Jesus says "he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God" (John 3:21, even coming to Jesus in obedience is wrought in God).

Apparently, you can’t answer the questions. Well,….

And what you say there really is needless to say.

When one use a little bit of sense common to man, when Adam was not guilty of disobedience, that would indicate that he could only be in a state of obedience.

No scripture states that Adam was obedient.

The Apostle Paul mentions "obedience" one time in Romans chapter 5, and Paul mentions "disobedience" one time in Romans chapter 5.

"For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous" (Romans 5:19) wrote Paul.

Notice that:

(A) Paul identifies Adam with "disobedience".

(B) Paul DOES NOT identify Adam with "obedience".

(C) Paul identifies Jesus with "obedience".

(D) Paul DOES NOT identify Jesus with "disobedience".

all in Romans chapter 5.

Adam was not guilty of disobedience prior to eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 2:16-17, Genesis 3:6); moreover, Adam was guilty of disobedience after eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 3:17).

No scripture throughout the entirety of the Bible indicates that Adam was obedient. Scripture only indicates Adam's disobedience.

No scripture states that Adam had the ability to be obedient; therefore, Adam was not guilty of violating God's command recorded in Genesis 2:16-17) prior to eating (Genesis 3:6).

As this post in this thread shows, scripturally a difference exists between Adam being not guilty before eating of the tree versus Adam being in obedience before eating of the tree. and addendum Romans 5:12-19 the only occurrences of "obed" are Adam with "disobedience" and Jesus with "obedience". and addendum an Adam with a God-like "will" certainly would not disobey God's command because God will not "will" that God disobey God

The thoughts of your heart add to the Word of God as well as subtract from the Word of God.

Not perhaps in your reading.

As I said above, when one use even a little bit of sense common to man, when Adam was not guilty of disobedience, that would indicate that he could only be in a state of obedience.

In your heart, you are adding "he could only be in a state of obedience" into the Word of God, and the evidence is that you wrote "sense common to man".

Your "sense common to man" is the precepts of men leading to worship in vain (Matthew 15:18).

Perhaps in your reading and line of reasoning.

Your conclusion there only shows what mind you have. It’s like saying that Adam did not eat of the fruit before he ate the fruit.

Tong
R4141

Your claimed CAUSE for Adam "willingly" eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil does not occur in Scripture; therefore, your claim is a deception.

As this post in this thread shows, God declares that Adam listened to the voice of his wife as the CAUSE for Adam to eat of the tree (Genesis 3:17).

The Apostle Paul conveys that Adam did not eat willingly of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Romans 8:20-22).

Again, your writings reveal the treasure of your heart (Matthew 15:18), that is your self-will reviling of Majesty on High (2 Peter 2:9-10)

Your heart says "Adam" (Genesis 2:7) is not part of "the whole creation", and Paul wrote "the whole creation" in Romans 8:20-22.

Your heart says "tree" (Genesis 2:9) is not part of "the whole creation", and Paul wrote "the whole creation" in Romans 8:20-22.

Your heart says "ate" (Genesis 3:6) is not an event that occurred prior to "now", and Paul wrote "until now" in Romans 8:20-22.

Your heart says "not willingly" occurs without application to "the whole creation" and "until now", and Paul wrote "not willingly" and "the whole creation" and "until now" in Romans 8:20-22.

In "Adam ate not willingly of the tree", Paul covered "Adam" which is a person as part of "the whole creation" in Romans 8:20-22.

In "Adam ate not willingly of the tree", Paul covered "tree" which is a thing as part of "the whole creation" in Romans 8:20-22.

In "Adam ate not willingly of the tree", Paul covered "ate" which is an action in time of "until now" in Romans 8:20-22.

In "Adam ate not willingly of the tree", Paul covered "not willingly" in Romans 8:20-22.

Paul most certainly included "Adam ate not willingly of the tree" in Romans 8:20-22.

See that you call Paul a liar about "Adam" as part of "the whole creation" in Romans 8:20-22.

See that you call Paul a liar about "tree" as part of "the whole creation" in Romans 8:20-22.

See that you call Paul a liar about "ate" as occurring prior to "until now" in Romans 8:20-22.

See that you call Paul a liar about "not willingly" in Paul's application to "the whole creation" in Romans 8:20-22.

And, this, sir, is Romans 8:20-22 in context.

The Apostle Paul conveys that Adam ate not willingly of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil subjecting the whole creation to futility (Romans 8:20-22).

Therefore, the kind of "will" that Adam was created with, if any kind, is irrelevant to Adam eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Still, no free will written in the creation account (Genesis 1:1-31 Genesis 2:1- 25 Genesis 3:1-24), with Paul in accord for he conveyed that Adam "not willingly" subjected creation to futility by eating of the tree forbiddenl for eating since Paul included all time prior to Paul's birth by his writing "until now" (Romans 8:20-22).

"YHWH is righteous in all his ways and holy in all his works" (Psalm 145:17)

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will neither.

 

[Kermos]

Adam did not know good and evil yet before his fall, even while he knows that God does not want for him to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. To conclude “, so you have Adam "willing" to do evil (disobedience) without knowing what evil is.” is simply erroneous.

The bottom line is Adam did not use free will choice toward God, and no man can choose toward God for the Lord Jesus says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16, includes righteously obeying God) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) to all of God's chosen persons in all time.

No Scripture attributes Adam's eating of the tree as being CAUSED by Adam's "will"; on the other hand, as this post in this thread shows, God declares that Adam listened to the voice of his wife as the CAUSE for Adam to eat of the tree (Genesis 3:17); therefore, your heart's treasure for the CAUSE to be Adam's "will" for eating of the tree is a precept of man leading to worship in vain (Matthew 15:18).

Here’s the question 3:

<<<Question 3) Did Adam, not knowing good and evil, willingly do evil in violating God's command not to eat of the tree of the knowledge good and evil?>>>
My answer to that was, and I quote:

“Adam, willingly ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, in disobedience to God’s command not to eat of it.”

I am quite sure you will want to tell me what I meant. Go ahead. But this will be my last response to that. I will ignore it. Just saying.

Tong
R4142

There you go again calling the Apostle Paul a liar.

The Apostle Paul conveys that Adam ate not willingly of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil subjecting the whole creation to futility (Romans 8:20-22).

Your heart's treasure of free will for Adam is demonstrated to be a precept of men according to your own admission as shown in this post which leads to worship in vain (Matthew 15:18).

Furthermore, in your effort to replace the Word of God with the "word of @Tong2020", you called the Apostle Paul a liar and your heart confusedly subtracting the Apostle John's writing from the Apostle John's writing and this post shows that you call Jesus a deceiving spirit and you called Joshua a liar and false prophet and you calling the Apostle Peter a liar.



Still, no free will written in the creation account (Genesis 1:1-31 Genesis 2:1- 25 Genesis 3:1-24), with Paul in accord for he conveyed that Adam "not willingly" subjected creation to futility by eating of the tree forbiddenl for eating since Paul included all time prior to Paul's birth by his writing "until now" (Romans 8:20-22).

"YHWH is righteous in all his ways and holy in all his works" (Psalm 145:17)

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will neither.

 

[Kermos]

Well you once again reject had a choice to eat so you believe he was compelled and had no choice but to eat. All the rest is just fluff to distract from the fact you believe Adam had no choice but HAD to eat.

You wickedly call the Word of God fluff.

The Word of God says "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat from it'" (Genesis 3:17).

GOD LITERALLY STATES THE CAUSE FOR ADAM EATING OF THE TREE FORBIDDEN AS FOOD WAS THAT ADAM LISTENED TO THE VOICE OF HIS WIFE (GENESIS 3:17).

In your heart you assign the cause for Adam eating of the tree forbidden as food was that Adam chose to eat.

You recite the precepts of men which leads to worship in vain (Matthew 15:18).

No scripture states that Adam had the free will ability to choose to eat of the tree forbidden as food.

No scripture states that Adam was compelled to eat of the tree forbidden as food.

Still, no free will written in the creation account (Genesis 1:1-31 Genesis 2:1- 25 Genesis 3:1-24), with Paul in accord for he conveyed that Adam "not willingly" subjected creation to futility by eating of the tree forbiddenl for eating since Paul included all time prior to Paul's birth by his writing "until now" (Romans 8:20-22).

"YHWH is righteous in all his ways and holy in all his works" (Psalm 145:17)

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will neither.

 

[Abaxvahl]

Sirach 15:11-20 refutes the whole thesis by itself, so does the Gospels, Torah, and rest of the Holy Scriptures:

"Say not: It is through God, that she is not with me: for do not thou the things that he hateth.
Say not: He hath caused me to err: for he hath no need of wicked men.
The Lord hateth all abomination of error, and they that fear him shall not love it.
God made man from the beginning, and left him in the hand of his own counsel.
He added his commandments and precepts.
If thou wilt keep the commandments and perform acceptable fidelity for ever, they shall preserve thee.
He hath set water and fire before thee: stretch forth thy hand to which thou wilt.
Before man is life and death, good and evil, that which he shall choose shall be given him:
For the wisdom of God is great, and he is strong in power, seeing all men without ceasing.
The eyes of the Lord are towards them that fear him, and he knoweth all the work of man.
He hath commanded no man to do wickedly, and he hath given no man license to sin:
For he desireth not a multitude of faithless and unprofitable children."

Therefore Adam had free will and was established in it. Man in the Fall became corrupted in our will, but we did not lose it. Christ restores our will which is why we are given love and set free by the Son. Then we are given the grace to will as we ought: freely in God.

 

[Kermos]

No Kermos no -_- people have freewill and it is given by choosing and God gave us thinking and know he is our creator and to do good. But still we had the power to choose.

Not according to Jesus, Lord and God (John 20:28) Who says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16, includes righteously obeying God) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) to all of God's chosen persons in all time.

Your post is a whole lot of useless "word of @grumix8", which is not life.

In truth, the Word of God is life (John 14:6).

Now, that is yet another post on page 46 with the "word of grumix8", and not one scripture quotation to support freewill
(just like this post shows one more similar posts on page 45 which has a predecessor this post shows one more similar posts on page 43 which has a predecessor this post shows one more similar posts on page 35 which has a predecessor this post shows two more similar posts on page 33 which has a predecessor this post shows one more similar posts on page 32 which has a predecessor of this post shows four more similar posts on page 28 which has a predecessor of this post showing you did the same on page 23).

That’s a whole lot of your thoughts without the Word of God!

Your thoughts that you control you being saved from the wrath of God in your freewill keep heaping up into your precepts of men that lead to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9).

The Word of God says there is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!

A word about your thoughts. It is written, “‘For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,’ declares the LORD. ‘For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts.'” (Isaiah 55:8-9).

A word about adding to scripture as you have done. It is written “do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar” (Proverbs 30:6), and the above explanation of your thoughts shows where you added to scripture.

Of the new Jerusalem, the Apostle John wrote “nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life” (Revelation 21:27) – notice that no one who practices lying gets in, and a human adding to scripture is the human lying.

Your free will assertion is referring to man attempting to override God’s thoughts with man’s thoughts, and that is evil.

Still, no free will written in the creation account (Genesis 1:1-31 Genesis 2:1- 25 Genesis 3:1-24), with Paul in accord for he conveyed that Adam “not willingly” ate of the tree since Paul included all time prior to Paul’s birth by his writing “until now” (Romans 8:20-22).

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will neither.

 

[Kermos]

I denounce any and all ad hominem statements that could be found therein.

I denounce any and all false accusations that could be found therein.

I denounce any and all false teachings that could be found therein.

I denounce any and all misuse of scriptures that could be found therein.

To the readers, beware. Plenty of scriptures cited does not necessarily mean to say that such a post is biblical and sound. In such cases, we will do well to do what the Bereans did in Acts 17 ~ search the Scriptures daily to find out whether what is being said in reference to cited scriptures were so.

Tong
R4155

To all readers, beware of adulteraters of the Word of God and/or teachers of the precepts of men that lead to worship in vain (Matthew 15:18).

The evidence of you, Tong2020, adulterating the Word of God is in this post shows that you call the Apostle Paul a liar and further in the post your vehement distaste of Paul is shown and this post shows your heart confusedly subtracting the Apostle John's writing from the Apostle John's writing and
this post and this post shows that you call Jesus a deceiving spirit and this post shows you calling Joshua a liar and false prophet and this post shows @Tong2020 calling the Apostle Peter a liar and this post shows you admitting to your adherence to the precepts of men which leads to worship in vain

Still, no free will written in the creation account (Genesis 1:1-31 Genesis 2:1- 25 Genesis 3:1-24), with Paul in accord for he conveyed that Adam "not willingly" subjected creation to futility by eating of the tree forbiddenl for eating since Paul included all time prior to Paul's birth by his writing "until now" (Romans 8:20-22).

"YHWH is righteous in all his ways and holy in all his works" (Psalm 145:17)

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will neither.

 

[Kermos]

Heck of a good question , for me anyway, as I know all do not have free will ,Paul as an example .

Got to study this ,thanks for the question

Hi n2thelight,

As this post in this thread shows, Paul compared and contrasted Adam to Jesus, and the flesh man precedes the spiritual man for every person. Basically, Paul conveys that mankind has a will that is either a slave of sin or a slave of righteousness. A slave is not free.

May God bless the time that you study!

-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-

Still, no free will written in the creation account (Genesis 1:1-31 Genesis 2:1- 25 Genesis 3:1-24), with Paul in accord for he conveyed that Adam "not willingly" subjected creation to futility by eating of the tree forbiddenl for eating since Paul included all time prior to Paul's birth by his writing "until now" (Romans 8:20-22).

"YHWH is righteous in all his ways and holy in all his works" (Psalm 145:17)

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will neither.