Was Adam Imparted Free Will From The Beginning Of Creation?

[Kermos]

• 1. 1. continud from post 100
        The Apostle Paul wrote to Timothy utilizing the clause "all men" in verse 1 and verse 4.
     2. Lord Jesus said:"the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many" (Matthew 20:28)
        "many are called, but few are chosen" (Matthew 22:14)
        
        
     3. Jesus IS GOD (John 8:58)
     4. Paul IS MAN (Acts 7:58 Saul is Paul)
     5. The words of Paul need to reconcile back to Jesus
     6. Lord Jesus said that Jesus came "to give His life a ransom for many"
     7. Paul wrote "gave Himself as a ransom for all".
     8. Lord Jesus said "many"; on the other hand, Paul said "all"
     9. God is all mighty (Genesis 35:11) with a might that surpasses human intellect abilities (Isaiah 55:8)
     10. When God desires/wants something, then God gets it (Daniel 4:35, Jude 1:4, Revelation 21:27, Romans 9:18-23)
     11. While examining Paul's writing in 1 Timothy 2:1-8, we would do well to keep in mind the revelation to the Apostle John:"And they sang a new song, saying, 'Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth.'" (Revelation 5:9-10)
     12. Paul indicates prayers be made on behalf of "all men"
         THEN Paul mentions a classification of men
         
         THAT is kings in the plural
         
         AND those in authority in the plural
         
         YET don't forget Revelation 5:9-10
         
         
     13. Paul then indicates the prayers be about "that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity"
     14. The "all men" mentioned by Paul does not indicate specific men, rather classifications/types of men
     15. There are kings, and there are "not" kings, identified for intercessory prayer
     16. Keep an eye on Revelation 5:9-10
     17. Note Paul's writing here does not mean that we cannot pray for specific individuals
     18. In verse 4, Paul indicates God desires "all men" to be saved
     19. The "all men" in verse 4 are a continuation of the "all men" in verse 1, that is, the classifications/types of men.
     20. God desires men of various types to be saved, recall Revelation 5:9-10 above
     21. In verse 6, Paul indicates that Christ Jesus gave Himself a ransom for "all", and that "all" is the elect/chosen of God (recall Matthew 22:14 above)
     22. That is, the ones who are born again by the Spirit of God (John 3:3-8) as well as the work of God in a person to believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent (John 6:29)
     23. Can the Apostle Paul be referring to every person who ever lived at any point in time in 1 Timothy 2:4 or 1 Timothy 2:6? Let's examine scripture which contains the answer:
         1. Judas Iscariot (Jesus knew the son of perdition [destruction, ruin, loss, perishing; eternal ruin] would betray him John 13:11, John 17:12, Acts 1:16-20)
         2. Pharoah (raised up to fight against God Romans 9:17)
         3. Esau (God said "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED." Romans 9:13 translated accurately, quoting from Malachi 1:2-3)
         4. Jewish Religious Leaders (they cried out saying, "Crucify, crucify!" about Jesus John 19:6 and with the upcoming "Your" being God's "to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur" Acts 4:27-28)
         5. Pontius Pilate (the upcoming "Your" being God's "to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur" Acts 4:27-28)
         6. Antichrist ("false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect" Matthew 24:24)
     24. The above six points, every one of the points, makes reference to REAL people
         AND the people are ALL under the wrath of God for there is no indicating of belief in Jesus whom the Father has sent!
         
         
     25. Paul wrote Romans 9:13 and Paul wrote 1 Timothy 2:4
         THUS providing more clarity that "all men" in 1 Timothy 2:1-8 are various types of men
         
         
     26. In verse 8, Paul wrote "I want the men in every place to pray, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and dissension"
         1. Who prays to God lifting holy hands in unity?
         2. The answer: believers!
         3. This "the men" harkens back to the "all men" in verse 1 and verse 4
     27. It is far worse than a critical disservice to God for any man to interpret 1 Timothy 2:1-8 as some kind of promiscuous man controlled salvation support apparatus

• Proper Language Rules And Literary Style
  1. In Acts 1:21 and surrounding context, constraints are not present on "all", so "all" means "all the time"
  2. In 1 Timothy 2:4 and surrounding context, constraints are present on "all", so "all" means all types of people
  3. Self-willed persons not only get the "all" denotation and connotation reversed between Acts 1:21 and 1 Timothy 2:4, but they daringly deny that Lord Jesus' refers to all believers in all time when the Word of God says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16)

• Critical Points About 1 Timothy 2:4
  1. The logical conclusion of "all men" meaning every person walking on planet Earth is universalism (written another way, all people everywhere are saved from the wrath of God regardless of whether a person believes in Jesus Christ) which is heretical because it is inconsistent with scripture and Apostolic teaching
     SUCH as when the Apostle Paul wrote "we will be rescued from perverse and evil men; for not all have belief" (2 Thessalonians 3:2)
     
     
  2. Under the self willed doctrine of free will:
     1. there is no need to pray to God for specific lost and unsaved persons since people are in exclusive control of choosing God a.k.a. claiming God's salvation for themselves
     2. the self willed people believe God does not have control over their salvation
     3. their choosing trumps according to their theology
     4. the self willian's daring belief that they can choose Jesus despite Jesus saying "you did not choose Me" (John 15:16) translates to the fact that the self willian's do not believe in Him Who says Who He is - He is the One with the characteristic to exclusively choose to save while man lacks the characteristic to choose Jesus per the Word of God saying "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19 - includes salvation)
  3. The 1 Timothy 2:4 passage never mentions explicitly nor implicitly that men have the ability to choose toward God, so this passage is absolutely not a proof text for people choosing God to salvation
  4. The writing of Paul in 1 Timothy 2:4 is in harmony with the Word saying "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16)

 

[Kermos]

post #53...

I don't think I have added to it at all. I have interpreted it.

For it should be clear that salvation is not by works; but that it is by grace through faith.

With that in mind I'm not sure how you could come up with a different interpretation than what I've provided.

re: post #87 (Was Adam Imparted Free Will From The Beginning Of Creation?).

Interpretation is up to the Spirit of God, not you (2 Peter 1:21-22).

You illegitimately added to the Word of God in your post #53 in this thread. Jesus did not say ANYTHING that matches your words of "only work that you can do" since the work is attributed to God and God alone!

Now it appears that you try to obscure your error again by not replying to the post where I explained this to you.

You do NOT cause "faith" to point at God per the Word of God.

Regardless of John 6:28, in John 6:29 the Word of God defines faith with "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent".

Lord Jesus is the Word of God (John 1:14).

This means that God works in a person to believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent.

 

[Timtofly]

Interpretation is up to the Spirit of God, not you (2 Peter 1:21-22).

You illegitimately added to the Word of God in your post #53 in this thread. Jesus did not say ANYTHING that matches your words of "only work that you can do" since the work is attributed to God and God alone!

Now it appears that you try to obscure your error again by not replying to the post where I explained this to you.

You do NOT cause "faith" to point at God per the Word of God.

Regardless of John 6:28, in John 6:29 the Word of God defines faith with "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent".

Lord Jesus is the Word of God (John 1:14).

This means that God works in a person to believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent.

Is you interpretation the only interpretation? If so why is there any objection? So all cannot apply to your interpretation.

Are all mankind the disciples of Christ? Are all believers, disciples living in the 1st century. Jesus was not addressing all. In fact until the record was given, Jesus was not addressing anyone. Because Jesus was only addressing his disciples, until a time came and the Word was given to all. It is reasonable that Who God chose did not apply to those not hearing that saying at that one particular time. The argument is not that God did choose His 12 disciples. We also see God choosing 144K Jewish male disciples very soon. Some have even declared those 144K apply to all living humanity for the last 100+ years. Now that group has over 8 million followers. 144K is not equal to 8 million much less all living humanity. Neither does 12 Jewish disciples in the 1st century describe all of humanity.

There is no universalism either, no matter if all false teachers taught it. All do not. Especially those of the Reformed theology.

It is an interesting study in "All", but all is not universal in all circumstances. The only application of all in the Atonement is Adam, Eve and their descendants. The Atonement did not apply to all sons of God. We could speculate if it applies to the daughters of Adam and the sons of God, ie half man, half God offspring, and probably only half the time, and not all the time.

If it makes it easier you could say God is not willing that any of Adam's offspring perished. God did know before Adam disobeyed that the Atonement covered all of Adam's descendants. Adam did not know, so his choice was not between his comfort and his descendants. Adam did have a free choice between Eve's offer and disobeying God. What Adam did not have is time to think. That time would have been in the choice as well? But you are not concerned about time, since you state, "for in the day." Perhaps it was only, "for in the hour"?

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Hey BARNEY BRIGHT, you bore false witness against me in your post #75 where you wrote "According to you kermos, God doesn't want people to choose to love him from the heart , but instead God just wanted programmed robots. Also according to you, you're telling people we can't make choices even though the scriptures are showing that we are to make choices."

I replied to you pointing this out, BARNEY BRIGHT, where I wrote "Well, BARNEY BRIGHT, you have proven yourself to be a bearer of false witness, because in the original post I reference this writing that God had me write 'Lord Jesus declared "where your treasure is, there your heart will be also" (Matthew 6:21) AND the Holy Spirit is precious treasure (John 3:3-8, John 16:7-14)" and I wrote "And, here's some more 'Jesus and the Bride of Christ, the Assembly of God, are together forevermore in love and joy on Earth and in heaven (Revelation 19:7, Revelation 21:9, John 15:5)'."

But, it appears that you just skip right on past your sinful way, BARNEY BRIGHT.

As far as your post #91, quoted above, BARNEY BRIGHT, your very first argument is non-sequitor where you wrote "None of these scriptures you have posted show in any way that we don't have free Will" because there is NO SCRIPTURE THAT IMPLICITLY NOR EXPLICITY INDICATES THAT MAN HAS FREE WILL.

None of Genesis 1-3 states that Adam was created a "free moral agent", so you are adding to scripture. The fact is, there is no scripture that states Adam was created with free-will; therefore, you are adding to scripture. In item 2.1. of the original post to this thread, I wrote "Adam was made in the image according to the likeness of God (Genesis 1:26) THEN some persons of the creation (creatures) argue that specific facility was given to Adam", so you are repeating error already proven to be wicked.

You are gonging off your thoughts instead of the Word of God when you wrote "Adam had the freedom of choice to do good or bad" since in item 2.3. the original post I wrote:

The timeline of Adam knowing good and evil
BEFORE Adam and Eve ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
THEN Adam and Eve knew not good and evil
AFTER Adam and Eve ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
THEN Adam and Eve knew good and evil
FOR the delineation is clarified when God said "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil" (Genesis 3:22)
YET based on the Word of God saying "has become" recorded in Genesis 3:22
THEN Adam did not know good and evil before eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
SO Adam did not know good and evil when God issued the command "from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die!" (Genesis 2:17)
THEREFORE at the time of eating, Adam listened and followed the last that he heard about the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
WHICH Adam heard from Eve
FOR God said "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat from it'" (Genesis 3:17)
SO Adam listened to Eve and Adam ate from the tree prior to knowing good and evil
AND a person does good by obeying God; on the other hand, a person does evil by disobeying God
SO free will choosing of good or choosing of evil is not the context
AND action is the context
SINCE good and evil are not known to Adam prior to eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
THEREFORE it follows that Adam was not endowed with the attribute of free will

This means, BARNEY BRIGHT, that you are adding choice to do good or bad/evil before Adam knew the difference according to the Word of God.

A word about thoughts, BARNEY BRIGHT. It is written, "'For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,' declares the LORD. 'For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts.'" (Isaiah 55:8-9).

A word about adding to scripture as you have done, BARNEY BRIGHT. It is written "do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6), and the above shows where you added to scripture.

Of the new Jerusalem, the Apostle John wrote "nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life" (Revelation 21:27) - notice that no one who practices lying, BARNEY BRIGHT, gets in.

Your free will assertion is referring to man attempting to override God's thoughts with man's thoughts, and that is evil.

I have read many of your posts. Every one I read it seems to me you are saying man doesn't have free will. That man doesn't have the ability to choose. If I'm wrong about that then are you saying they do have free will that they did have the ability to choose to obey that command that God gave concerning the forbidden tree.

 

[101G]

This competition is: saw versus freewill

The word "saw" represents the act of seeing in the past and/or the act of perceiving in the past.

The word "freewill" represents a person's autonomously comprehensive determination (i.e. a person's exclusive ability to choose things and/or actions autonomously).

Therefore the word "saw" is inequal to the word "freewill" (including "free will choice").

The word "saw" is a verb, but the word "freewill" is a noun.

A noun is a person, place, or thing; on the other hand, a verb is an action.

Therefore a noun is inequal to a verb.

Therefore "saw" is inequal to "freewill" (including "free will choice").

Considering source versus recipient respecting "saw" and "freewill".

Perception happens to a person, so "saw" travels into a person.

Choice emanates from a person, so "freewill" travels out of a person.

A person is the "source" when referring to "freewill" or "freewill choice".

A person is the "recipient" when referring to "saw" or "perception".

Written another way, perception (saw) is inequal to choice (freewill).

An inversion of context occurs within Genesis 3:6 when "freewill" is erroneously applied to "saw" by self willed persons (2 Peter 2:9-10).

ERROR, "see" or "Saw" past tense is the Hebrew word, H7200 רָאָה ra'ah (raw-aw') v.
(literally or figuratively) to see.
{in numerous applications, direct and implied, transitive, intransitive and causative.}
[a primitive root]
KJV: advise self, appear, approve, behold, X certainly, consider, discern, (make to) enjoy, have experience, gaze, take heed, X indeed, X joyfully, lo, look (on, one another, one on another, one upon another, out, up, upon), mark, meet, X be near, perceive, present, provide, regard, (have) respect, (fore-, cause to, let) see(-r, -m, one another), shew (self), X sight of others, (e-)spy, stare, X surely, X think, view, visions.

here "SEE" or the past tense form "saw" was that she made a decision by "CHOICE.". for "see" if one google it means, See can be used figuratively to mean understand. One of Merriam-Webster's definitions of see is "to perceive the meaning or importance of : understand" (definition 3b). For example, if someone explains something to you and you say, "I see," you mean that you understand the explanation.

now that we know "SEE" means to understand, now lets reveal what was said here. If you are speaking in the present tense, then “Do you understand,” is the correct wording. When speaking in the past tense, the correct phrase is “Did you understand.” From what we know of the English language, “do you understand” is typically used when referring to a current event or conversation. so SAW ios a past tense desigination. meaning she had made a "CHOICE".

now by using the past tense use of SEE, which is "SAW", she had made a "DECISION" about the tree as to eat of of it or not. the decision was to "EAT" or "NOT" to EAT.

as the KJV can translate it "Consider", or "discern" which is a choice, just as "desires". I suggest you read this to understand. Desire and pleasure in choice SAGE Journals: Your gateway to world-class research journals

after reading the short article, Eve said, " and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise". plesant .. BINGO. for eyes here are not your eyes in your head, but.... Ephesians 1:18 "The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,"
THERE IT IS "TO KNOW".

so no, your assessment of the actions taken by Eve are incorrect.

I don't know how many way must I contuine to reprove you and correct you, but this is my last time.

PICJAG.

 

[101G]

Thanks for replying, 101G.

First, since the disciples already have come, then Lord Jesus outlines that which all God's children understand, which is that the Word of God brings all His disciples into salvation for He says "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) as well as the production of fruit of the Spirit (sanctification) for He says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16, refers to both salvation and sanctification) for He continues with "and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit" (John 15:16). All of this could have been spoken in a single breath by the Word of God.

Second, God saw everything was good since the plan of redemption by the Christ was underway, shown in item 2.2. of the orignial post.

Third, you appear to be a universalist because God gets what He desires, and you wrote 'God has "chose" all men because his desire is that all be saved, 1 Timothy 2:3' which, to quote you again, 'it's amazing how people just don't read before they speak," since it applies to you.

Please see next post for more.

it's just amazing how people just don't read and asume.

first, did I say I was a universalist? well if I didn't say I was, then don't put words in my mouth. keep your assumption to yourself about me... ok.


1 Timothy 2:4 "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."
now, is all men saved yes or no? or is it God's desire for all to be saved? but to put an end to this, Romans 9:22 "What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:"

PICJAG.

 

[101G]

taken from your post #100.

Third, you appear to be a universalist because God gets what He desires, and you wrote 'God has "chose" all men because his desire is that all be saved, 1 Timothy 2:3' which, to quote you again, 'it's amazing how people just don't read before they speak," since it applies to you.

The self-willians strongly assert "all" does not mean "all" in "all the time"

that's an ignorant statement and here's why. all do not mean all the time .... unless qualified. example, in Romans 1:7 "To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ."

so was this letter to everyone in Rome? no but did he not say "all?", yes, because he qualified the "All". in Rome, beloved of God ... "called to be saints".

so here I must leave you with 2 Timothy 3:7, Good day.

PICJAG.

 

[Dcopymope]

@Kermos

You're making it more complicated then it needs to be. Did they have free will before they ate from that tree? Well they did actually, but God doesn't see free will like we understand it. Obviously, they had the freedom to make their own decisions, to obey and disobey. They knew right from wrong and clearly understood it as God plainly laid out the instructions for what they shall and shall not do. But knowing right from wrong is not the same as knowing what is good or holy from what is evil or sin. Something being wrong doesn't make it a sin. The two are entirely different and the latter is the very reason why Jesus was sent to begin with, not the former.

Running a red light may be wrong but it is not a mortal sin against God. From Gods perspective, its not our free will that is the issue, it is our knowledge of sin and the ability to obtain it that is the real issue. God could care less about our ability to choose, and this won't be any different on the new earth to come. What will be different is the complete eradication of sin and the very knowledge of it. From Gods perspective, if we won't have the ability to obtain the knowledge of sin, for it to be conceived within our heart, there is nothing to be concerned about. What happened in the garden had more to do with remembrance, our minds. This is why Isaiah, Jeremiah and John said this:

(Isaiah 65:16-17) "That he who blesseth himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of truth; and he that sweareth in the earth shall swear by the God of truth; because the former troubles are forgotten, and because they are hid from mine eyes. {17} ¶ For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind."

(Jeremiah 31:31-34) "¶ Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: {32} Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: {33} But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. {34} And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."

(Revelation 21:4) "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

 

[DNB]

I don't interpret Scripture, that is a function of the Holy Spirit (2 Peter 1:20-21).

You should learn not to blaspheme the Holy Spirit by claiming that your own personal thoughts and perceptions, are His.

 

[Kermos]

APOLOGY POST

It was asserted in post #92 by @101G that I erred by indicating there was no transition indicated inside Genesis 3:6 as I wrote at this link http://JesusDelivers.Faith/cw/agaci...ndor.MeaningOfHebrewWordRaahInGenesis3-6.html (I have temporarily taking this down during correction).

I have already apologized to God for stating there was no transition indicated in the recorded words of Genesis 3:6.

Now, I apologize to you, 101G, and to anyone else that read where I wrote there was no transition indicated in the recorded words of Genesis 3:6.

I endeavored to prove 101G wrong for indicating that a transition did occur in Genesis 3:6. As I proceeded to examine the veracity of the Hebrew to English translation, I discovered several translational flaws which, once corrected, clearly indicate a transition for Eve.

I plan to appropriately document these findings and reenable this link http://JesusDelivers.Faith/cw/agaci...ndor.MeaningOfHebrewWordRaahInGenesis3-6.html after I complete the corrections.

 

[Kermos]

APOLOGY POST

It was asserted in post #92 by @101G that I erred by indicating there was no transition indicated inside Genesis 3:6 as I wrote at this link The Meaning Of The Hebrew Word רָאָה (raah) in Genesis 3:6 (I have temporarily taking this down during correction).

I have already apologized to God for stating there was no transition indicated in the recorded words of Genesis 3:6.

Now, I apologize to you, 101G, and to anyone else that read where I wrote there was no transition indicated in the recorded words of Genesis 3:6.

I endeavored to prove 101G wrong for indicating that a transition did occur in Genesis 3:6. As I proceeded to examine the veracity of the Hebrew to English translation, I discovered several translational flaws which, once corrected, clearly indicate a transition for Eve.

I plan to appropriately document these findings and reenable this link The Meaning Of The Hebrew Word רָאָה (raah) in <a href="http://biblehub.com/genesis/3-6.htm" target="_new">Genesis 3:6</a> after I complete the corrections.

@justbyfaith @Taken @101G @BARNEY BRIGHT @DNB @Enoch111 @GISMYS_7 @Stumpmaster @Timtofly

With the recorded words of Genesis 3:6 carefully translated to English, several solid proofs that Eve neither exercies choice nor freewill are available at this updated page:

The Meaning Of The Hebrew Word רָאָה (raah) in <a href="http://biblehub.com/genesis/3-6.htm" target="_new">Genesis 3:6</a>

The following points are carefully laid out in the page that prove man was not imparted free will:

• The Genesis 3:6 passage contains the present tense, not the past tense
• The Genesis 3:6 passage indicates "seeing", not "believing", this conclusively because:
  • "Sight" and "seeing" are directionally inward for man.
  • "Belief"/"faith" and "believing" are directionally outward for man.
  And, the word "believing" cannot replace the word "seeing", in part nor in whole, because of "we walk by belief, not by sight" (2 Corinthians 5:7).
• The Genesis 3:6 passage indicates "seeing", not "choosing", this conclusively because:
  • "Sight" and "seeing" are directionally inward for man.
  • "Choice" and "choosing" are directionally outward for man.
  And, the word "choosing" cannot replace the word "seeing", in part nor in whole, because "choosing" opposes the direction of "seeing".
• The Genesis 3:6 passage indicates a transition for Eve respecting:
  • when the tree was good for food
  • when it was a delight to the eyes
  So this was Eve's sight, that is, her fleshly lust manifested.
• The Genesis 3:6 passage indicates a pre-existing state for Eve (no transition) of her desire for it is written "the tree was desirable to make wise" (the word "when" is not there), so Eve's desire was already a part of Eve, that is, her fleshly lust.
• The Genesis 3:6 passage indicates Eve was driven by her desire, and we find James, the slave of God, wrote "you desire and do not have" (James 4:2) as well as "each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own desire. Then when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death (James 1:14-15), so Eve was carried away and enticed by her own desire, that is, she was not carried away and enticed by her seeing.

Hi @Rocky Wiley - I'm not including you with the list of people above since you do not hold to their unsupported by scripture theology, but I'm just dropping you a note to let you know what's happening.

To all: God is glorified by the Power of God (1 Corinthians 1:24).

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!

 

[Timtofly]

The point is not about Eve having a choice is it?

The assertion would be that Eve was always eating of that tree without any result at all.

 

[Taken]

@justbyfaith @Taken @101G @BARNEY BRIGHT @DNB @Enoch111 @GISMYS_7 @Stumpmaster @Timtofly

With the recorded words of Genesis 3:6 carefully translated to English, several solid proofs that Eve neither exercies choice nor freewill are available at this updated page:

Gen 3:
[1] Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

CLUE: the Serpent "initiated" conversation...
Got the Woman's Attention.

Gen 3:
[2] And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
WARNING:
[3] But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of "it" ( the fruit of "the" Tree in the midst of the garden) neither shall ye touch it,

CONSEQUENCE (IF you touch it, IF you Eat of it.)
... lest ye die.

Gen 3:
[6] And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

You elaborated on: her seeing.
You say present tense:
"saw" is past tense.
"was" is past tense.
"took" is past tense.
"did eat" is past tense.

"good food" "pleasant fruit" are not stand alone "bad" things.

"desire for wisdom" is not a stand alone "bad" thing.

She made a decision/ a choice.
She reached out her hand and "took".
She put the fruit to her mouth and "did eat".

* Gods presence was IN the Garden.
* The man & woman were IN the Garden.
* God was teaching "Good" Knowledge, via His Word.
* The Serpent got the woman's attention.
* The woman listened to the Serpent.
* The woman talked to the Serpent.
* The woman decided:
...The fruit was good for food.
...The fruit was pleasant.
...The fruit would give her desired wisdom.

What the woman DID NOT KNOW:
* "Good and Evil" Is NOT Wisdom.
* God IS Good.
* Serpent IS Evil.
* Gods Wisdom IS Good through Truth.
* Serpents Wisdom IS Evil through Trickery.
* The woman WAS NOT yet "prepared" in enough of Gods Good Knowledge of Truth...
To Recognize the Serpents Evil Wisdom of Trickery.

The woman MADE a FREEWILL choice, To Listen to the Serpent, Consider the Serpents words, Act on the Serpents words.

It is a LESSON:
Prepare your Children IN your home, IN the Good Word of God, Before they leave your home, Because Evil IS in the World, Even may be within your home, always Ready To get the attention of "the unknowing" and "undermine" Gods Truth with Evil Deception.

The man and woman, Learned through Trial and Error.
They had Twin boys. Cain first, Then Abel.
Cain displeased God.
Abel pleased God.
Cain killed Abel.
(LESSON: Good and Evil can be IN ONE families home).
The woman bare a third son, Seth.
The woman SAID:
Gen 4:
"...For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew..."

In Abel's STEAD, (who was pleasing TO God),
STOOD "Seth"...

And Scripture Reveals: through Seth...
Gen 4:
[26] And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD.

"Knowledge" (NOT Wisdom), OF "Good AND Evil" became a natural born earthlings innate
"Understanding", through Adam.

Wisdom IS "Choosing" To act on Gods Good Knowledge.

People Naturally "make Choices", By "exercising Their Freewill", TO ACT.

God, Freely Chose to Create mankind, teach them Good, Warn Them, Correct them.
The Serpent, Freely Chose to Deceive the woman.
The woman, Freely Chose to Eat the Fruit.
The man, Freely Chose to Eat the Fruit.
Cain, Freely Chose to kill Abel.
Cain, Freely TRIED, to Fool God, with Deception. (It Failed)
Seth, was Appointed IN (deceptive Cains) stead.
Through Seth's son, Enos (Enosh), Men began to CALL ON...focus their Attention ON Gods (Good) Knowledge.

It's a LESSON;
Exercise your Own FREEWILL TO Focus ON the GOOD Knowledge of Gods Word of Truth.

DO Good, Experience the Results of Having Done Good...and Thus you Have Gained valuable Wisdom.

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16)

Out of Context:
Jesus is With "His Disciples", Talking "to His Disciples".
We are already Aware Jesus, "Expressly" picked and "Chose" "them" to follow Him.

Every individual Who Freely follows AND Freely Submits TO God has themselves...
Chosen/ ELECTED God.
They Have Freely Chosen to MAKE the Heavenly Lord God...."Their" ELECT, Supreme Above All God.

EX. 20:
[3] Thou shalt have no other gods "before me."

1 Thes 1:
[4] Knowing, brethren beloved, "your" election of God.

You are standing on man's understanding.
I disagree.
Gods ORDER, Gods WAY, Gods UNDERSTANDING is Paramount.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Kermos]

Is you interpretation the only interpretation? If so why is there any objection? So all cannot apply to your interpretation.

Interpretation is up to the Spirit of God, not you (2 Peter 1:21). I am not interpreting.

Are all mankind the disciples of Christ? Are all believers, disciples living in the 1st century. Jesus was not addressing all. In fact until the record was given, Jesus was not addressing anyone. Because Jesus was only addressing his disciples, until a time came and the Word was given to all. It is reasonable that Who God chose did not apply to those not hearing that saying at that one particular time. The argument is not that God did choose His 12 disciples. We also see God choosing 144K Jewish male disciples very soon. Some have even declared those 144K apply to all living humanity for the last 100+ years. Now that group has over 8 million followers. 144K is not equal to 8 million much less all living humanity. Neither does 12 Jewish disciples in the 1st century describe all of humanity.

There is no universalism either, no matter if all false teachers taught it. All do not. Especially those of the Reformed theology.

It is an interesting study in "All", but all is not universal in all circumstances. The only application of all in the Atonement is Adam, Eve and their descendants. The Atonement did not apply to all sons of God. We could speculate if it applies to the daughters of Adam and the sons of God, ie half man, half God offspring, and probably only half the time, and not all the time.

If it makes it easier you could say God is not willing that any of Adam's offspring perished. God did know before Adam disobeyed that the Atonement covered all of Adam's descendants. Adam did not know, so his choice was not between his comfort and his descendants. Adam did have a free choice between Eve's offer and disobeying God. What Adam did not have is time to think. That time would have been in the choice as well? But you are not concerned about time, since you state, "for in the day." Perhaps it was only, "for in the hour"?

That's a lot without any scripture reference, Timtofly.

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!

BTW, there is no place in scripture that states God chooses all people unto salvation. That's called universalism, and universalism is in error.

There is no scriptural support for your writing of "Adam did have a free choice between Eve's offer and disobeying God". There is NO mention of Adam having a free choice. What you have done is called adding to scripture. A word about adding to scripture as you have done, it is written "do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6), and the above explanation of your thoughts shows where you added to scripture.

Whether Adam looked at the fruit for a day, an hour, or just a moment before Adam ate of the fruit, that does not impact the fact that Adam acted out of Adam's nature - the first nature. The scripture states Adam acted, not Adam chose, but Adam acted. The first nature is examined in detail at Almighty God's Awesome Creation In Amazing Splendor

Further, there is no scriptural support for your writing of "God is not willing that any of Adam's offspring perished".

Regardless of what you are trying to convey, the Word of God defines faith with "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent".

Lord Jesus is the Word of God (John 1:14).

This means that God works in a person to believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent.

 

[Kermos]

I have read many of your posts. Every one I read it seems to me you are saying man doesn't have free will. That man doesn't have the ability to choose. If I'm wrong about that then are you saying they do have free will that they did have the ability to choose to obey that command that God gave concerning the forbidden tree.

I appreciate that you have read many of my posts!

To clarify, I write that the Word of God does not indicate that mankind was endowed with free-will.

Even more specifically, the Word of God indicates that humans cannot choose the Word of God, and here is the Word of God: "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19).

Scripture does not state that Adam nor Eve had the ability to choose to obey that command that God gave concerning the forbidden tree.

Per the scripturally founded orignal post to this thread:

(1) item 1 indicates there is no way to avoid the eating concerning the forbidden tree

(2) item 2.1. indicates that man could not do evil against God if the full attributes of God were imparted to man

(3) item 2.2 indicates the impossibility of man interupting God's plan of redemption, since free will of man could result in a choice to interupt God's plan of redemption then there could be no free will

(4) item 3 indicates Adam could not have known good from evil prior to eating of the forbidden tree, so a choice between God, being good, and eating the fruit, being evil, could not have existed for Adam.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

I appreciate that you have read many of my posts!

To clarify, I write that the Word of God does not indicate that mankind was endowed with free-will.

Even more specifically, the Word of God indicates that humans cannot choose the Word of God, and here is the Word of God: "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19).

Scripture does not state that Adam nor Eve had the ability to choose to obey that command that God gave concerning the forbidden tree.

Per the scripturally founded orignal post to this thread:

(1) item 1 indicates there is no way to avoid the eating concerning the forbidden tree

(2) item 2.1. indicates that man could not do evil against God if the full attributes of God were imparted to man

(3) item 2.2 indicates the impossibility of man interupting God's plan of redemption, since free will of man could result in a choice to interupt God's plan of redemption then there could be no free will

(4) item 3 indicates Adam could not have known good from evil prior to eating of the forbidden tree, so a choice between God, being good, and eating the fruit, being evil, could not have existed for Adam.

It seems to me then, that God was asking the impossible from his created being, Adam, when he commanded Adam to not eat from the forbidden tree, if as you say, there was no way for Adam to avoid eating from the forbidden tree. I honestly don't believe God asks the impossible from his created creatures.

Concerning item 2.2 you say basically, " it's impossible of man to interrupt God's plan of redemption. I agree with that, that mankind can't interrupt God's plan of redemption, but I see nowhere in the scriptures where man needed redemption until Adam ate from the forbidden tree. When God first created Adam first brought him into existence, God created Adam without sin, he was sinless and remained sinless until he ate of the forbidden tree. So when God first created Adam there was no plan of redemption that I can see until Adam ate of the forbidden tree. Now I agree that God made a plan to redeem mankind after Adam ate from the forbidden tree and no one can interrupt that redemption plan, but as I said, I have seen no redemption plan come into existence in the scriptures until after Adam ate of the forbidden tree.

At item 3 you said that Adam could not have known good from evil prior to eating of the forbidden tree. At Genesis 2:17; Genesis 3:5; Genesis 3:22 The “good and evil” in these three texts seems to refer to the one thing. Adam and Eve knew something about evil before eating the fruit from the “tree of the knowledge of good and evil”. (Gen. 2:17) They knew it would be wrong for them to eat that fruit, and they knew that death was an evil to be shunned. To “be as gods, knowing good and evil” seems to mean more than just helpful knowledge of what is right and what is wrong. (Gen. 3:5) The word gods could mean just Jehovah God, since the Hebrew word here is Elohim and can mean either God (Jehovah) or gods. If it means gods, then it could refer to Jehovah God and his master worker and only-begotten Son, the Logos. It was to that one that Jehovah said, at Genesis 3:22: “Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil.”

To know “good and evil” as Jehovah and his only-begotten Son know it would seem to mean to know good and evil for yourself, that is, you make the decision of what is good and what is evil, you judge what is right and what is wrong. Adam and Eve were no longer theocratic, no longer looked to God as the Universal Sovereign over all creatures, no longer accepted him as the one to determine right and wrong. They were going to determine for themselves what they were going to do on the earth, and not let God be the Supreme Arbiter.

Hence to the more responsible man, the woman’s head, Jehovah said in substance: ‘All right, Adam, if you want to be non-theocratic you go your own way. Decide for yourself what is good and evil from your viewpoint. You have no place in the garden of Eden. This garden is for theocratic people who are subject to me. Now get out.’ This view of the matter harmonizes with the fact that God does not assign the committing of sin as the reason for ousting Adam from Eden, but says it was because “the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil” and therefore should have no opportunity to eat of the tree of life. All this seems to me that both Adam and Eve had free will, therefore it seems to me that mankind has free will.

 

[justbyfaith]

God is outside of time (Isaiah 57:15).

 

[justbyfaith]

Interpretation is up to the Spirit of God, not you (2 Peter 1:21).

See 1 Corinthians 7:40-b.

 

[Kermos]

ERROR, "see" or "Saw" past tense is the Hebrew word, H7200 רָאָה ra'ah (raw-aw') v.
(literally or figuratively) to see.
{in numerous applications, direct and implied, transitive, intransitive and causative.}
[a primitive root]
KJV: advise self, appear, approve, behold, X certainly, consider, discern, (make to) enjoy, have experience, gaze, take heed, X indeed, X joyfully, lo, look (on, one another, one on another, one upon another, out, up, upon), mark, meet, X be near, perceive, present, provide, regard, (have) respect, (fore-, cause to, let) see(-r, -m, one another), shew (self), X sight of others, (e-)spy, stare, X surely, X think, view, visions.

here "SEE" or the past tense form "saw" was that she made a decision by "CHOICE.". for "see" if one google it means, See can be used figuratively to mean understand. One of Merriam-Webster's definitions of see is "to perceive the meaning or importance of : understand" (definition 3b). For example, if someone explains something to you and you say, "I see," you mean that you understand the explanation.

now that we know "SEE" means to understand, now lets reveal what was said here. If you are speaking in the present tense, then “Do you understand,” is the correct wording. When speaking in the past tense, the correct phrase is “Did you understand.” From what we know of the English language, “do you understand” is typically used when referring to a current event or conversation. so SAW ios a past tense desigination. meaning she had made a "CHOICE".

now by using the past tense use of SEE, which is "SAW", she had made a "DECISION" about the tree as to eat of of it or not. the decision was to "EAT" or "NOT" to EAT.

as the KJV can translate it "Consider", or "discern" which is a choice, just as "desires". I suggest you read this to understand. Desire and pleasure in choice SAGE Journals: Your gateway to world-class research journals

after reading the short article, Eve said, " and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise". plesant .. BINGO. for eyes here are not your eyes in your head, but.... Ephesians 1:18 "The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,"
THERE IT IS "TO KNOW".

so no, your assessment of the actions taken by Eve are incorrect.

I don't know how many way must I contuine to reprove you and correct you, but this is my last time.

PICJAG.

"See" or "saw" means perceive, not believe, but perceive, as in to be aware.

In one case you failed to perceive that "see" or "saw" does not mean "believe", as simply "seen" in the definition you included near the top your post - there is no "believe" mentioned in the definition; therefore, "believe" fails to safely replace "see"/"saw" in Genesis 3:6.

You further fail to perceive that "see" or "saw" does not mean "decision". as clearly "visible" in the definition you included near the top your post - there is no "decision" mentioned in the definition; logically resulting in, "decision" fails to safely replace "see"/"saw" in Genesis 3:6.

In another case you fail to perceive that "see" or "saw" does not mean "understand", "behold" in the definition you included near the top your post - there is no "understand" mentioned in the definition; consequently, "understand" fails to safely replace "see"/"saw" in Genesis 3:6.

Neither "consider" nor "discern" denote "choice", so "choice" can not safely replace "see"/"saw" in Genesis 3:6.

Moreover, in your post you try to extort a question out of "When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make [one] wise, she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate" (Genesis 3:6). Your extortion is your free-will. There is no question therein.

You are desperately adding "believe" into Genesis 3:6 - detrimentally for you in a place that it does not belong as you try to insert free-will choice where it does not exist.

Here is a scriptural treatise on "desire" centered on scripture (you dead wrongly assimilate "choice" with your worldly philosophy by way of your SAGE link): The Meaning Of The Hebrew Word חָמַד (chamad) in Genesis 3:6 Considering Other Portions of Scripture

At the tail end of your post, you attempt to apply Ephesians 1:8 into Genesis 3:6. Ephesians 1:8 being "enlighted" is the state; on the other hand, Genesis 3:6 desirable to become "wise" is the state - if we use some latitude for "wise" to relate to "enlighted" then the state of "enlighted" does not come until AFTER eating, so Ephesians 1:8 is talking about "enlighted" persons, that is already saved (believers, see the begining of Ephesians for whom the epistle is transmitted), yet Genesis 3:6 is talking about persons that are not "wise"/"enlighted" to some degree. Ephesians 1:8 and Genesis 3:6 do not mix the way you try to twist the passages.

A word about your thoughts. It is written, "'For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,' declares the LORD. 'For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts.'" (Isaiah 55:8-9).

A word about adding to scripture as you have done. It is written "do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6), and the above explanation of your thoughts shows where you added to scripture.

Of the new Jerusalem, the Apostle John wrote "nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life" (Revelation 21:27) - notice that no one who practices lying gets in, and a human adding to scripture is the human lying.

Your free will assertion is referring to man attempting to override God's thoughts with man's thoughts, and that is evil.

As can be seen at Almighty God's Awesome Creation In Amazing Splendor there is no free-will mentioned for Adam nor Eve. This link includes an exhaustive scriptural treatment of see/saw for Genesis 3:6.

 

[Kermos]

it's just amazing how people just don't read and asume.

first, did I say I was a universalist? well if I didn't say I was, then don't put words in my mouth. keep your assumption to yourself about me... ok.

1 Timothy 2:4 "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."
now, is all men saved yes or no? or is it God's desire for all to be saved? but to put an end to this, Romans 9:22 "What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:"

PICJAG.

taken from your post #100.

that's an ignorant statement and here's why. all do not mean all the time .... unless qualified. example, in Romans 1:7 "To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ."

so was this letter to everyone in Rome? no but did he not say "all?", yes, because he qualified the "All". in Rome, beloved of God ... "called to be saints".

so here I must leave you with 2 Timothy 3:7, Good day.

PICJAG.

The "all" in 1 Timothy 2:4 is qualified by the prior 3 verses as all types of men.

God gets what desires/wants, so since you claim God desires/wants "all men to be saved" across the board, then that makes you a universalist whether you explicitly state such.

In Romans 1:7, "all" is qualified as such, the beloved of God which are called to be saints that were in Rome.

As far as Acts 1:21-22 "time" is qualified by "all", thus "all the time" means "all the time" when Peter says "Therefore it is necessary that of the men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us - beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us - one of these [must] become a witness with us of His resurrection", and Matthias and Joseph were put forward, so that means that Matthias and Joseph were with them "all the time" including the supper recorded in John chapters 13 - 17.

So, Matthias and Joeseph were also there when Lord Jesus said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!