Was Adam Imparted Free Will From The Beginning Of Creation?

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101G

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You can't even understand the lineage of the children of Israel and Christ Jesus from Abraham! Amazing! Your lack of Biblical understanding is like a 1st grader.
GINOLJC, to all
First thanks for the reply, second, we can take this as you have no scriptural support to refute what I posted? I thought so.

Remember, Don't argue with 101G, argue with the scriptures, God Holy Word.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
 

Nancy

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Was Adam imparted free will from the beginning of Creation?

The Word of God indicates no based upon both scriptural text and context.

The following is carefully presented proof establishing Adam was formed with intent not endowed with free will.

  1. God issued prophecy about man eating the fruit (Genesis 2:17)
    AT the time God commanded the man, Adam, not to eat of the tree
    AND the consequence of disobedience is declared - that is that death of the man would result in eating from the tree
    YET a command does not convey ability (see also God's Commands Distinguised From Man's Ability)
    BUT the language contains a prophetic construct indicating assurance of occurrence - "for in the day that you eat" - the "for" is promissory
    NOT a conditional logic construct such as "if in the day that you eat"
    IN fact, the English word "for" is translated from the Hebrew word כִּ֗י (ki)
    AND the Hebrew word כִּ֗י™ (ki) contains the meanings of these English words "that", "for", "when" (Strong's Hebrew: 3588. כִּ֗י (ki) -- that, for, when)
    THEREFORE the word "when" fits where the word "for" resides in Genesis 2:17
    THUS the phrase "when in the day that you eat" is an accurate translation for Genesis 2:17
    SO this confirms the promissory nature, the prophecy of man eating the fruit, with the word "for"/"when" in Genesis 2:17
    AND this imposes contextual certainty indicating God's foreknowledge over the matter described in Genesis 2:17
    SO there is no free will indicated for Adam
    AND the firm fact is established
    THAT God reigns in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)
  2. Attributes/Characteristics Compared And Contrasted
    1. Examining attribute as relating to the purported facility of free will in Adam
      WITH a targeted result of logical deductive reasoning leveraging compare and contrast of attributes/facilities
      SINCE Adam was made in the image according to the likeness of God (Genesis 1:26)
      THEN some persons of the creation (creatures) argue that specific facility was given to Adam
      IN particular God willpowering purported free will into man during the creation of Adam
      THEN Adam could not have used free will to perform evil against God
      BECAUSE God will not use willpower in order to perform evil against God's self (Psalm 5:4, Psalm 92:15, Deuteronomy 32:4)
      THEREFORE it follows that Man could not use free will in order to perform evil against God
      1. The logical extension of free will on this basis results in man possessing expanded facilities beyond God's facilities
      2. God is Creator; on the other hand, man is creature
      3. Largely, I use free will to mean man choosing toward God, emphatically Lord Jesus Christ.
      4. Scripture does not include the mention of endowing Adam with free will
      5. Man's free will is a precept of man (Matthew 15:9)
    2. Adam as part of God's Plan of Redemption through the Christ for mankind before the foundation of the world
      SINCE God saw creation was very good on the 6th Day (Genesis 1:31)
      AND God's Plan of Redemption through the Christ for mankind is good (Ephesians 1:1-14,Ephesians 2:13)
      THEN a free will Adam could not have been roaming the Garden of Eden with the ability to choose to obey God's command not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 2:17)
      SINCE the only command carrying a punishment was the prohibition upon Adam against eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
      THUS a free will Adam could have disrupted God's Plan of Redemption through the Christ for mankind
      SO God could not conclude with certainty by declaring everything was good on the sixth day with a free will Adam in control roaming the Garden of Eden
      THEREFORE it follows that Adam could not be endowed with the attribute of free will
    3. The timeline of Adam knowing good and evil
      BEFORE Adam and Eve ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
      THEN Adam and Eve knew not good and evil
      AFTER Adam and Eve ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
      THEN Adam and Eve knew good and evil
      FOR the delineation is clarified when God said "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil" (Genesis 3:22)
      YET based on the Word of God saying "has become" recorded in Genesis 3:22
      THEN Adam did not know good and evil before eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
      SO Adam did not know good and evil when God issued the command "from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die!" (Genesis 2:17)
      THEREFORE at the time of eating, Adam listened and followed the last that he heard about the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
      WHICH Adam heard from Eve
      FOR God said "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat from it'" (Genesis 3:17)
      SO Adam listened to Eve and Adam ate from the tree prior to knowing good and evil
      AND a person does good by obeying God; on the other hand, a person does evil by disobeying God
      SO free will choosing of good or choosing of evil is not the context
      AND action is the context
      SINCE good and evil are not known to Adam prior to eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
      THEREFORE it follows that Adam was not endowed with the attribute of free will
    4. The attribute of "joining" - marriage
      1. Lord Jesus says a topically very profound statement of "from the beginning of creation, [God] made them male and female. For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother, and the two shall become one flesh; so they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together let no man separate." (Mark 10:6-9)
      2. "God has joined together" is a clear reference by Jesus to Christ and the Bride of Christ
      3. "God has joined together" is a clear reference by Jesus to marriage between "male and female" (creatures both)
      4. "God has joined together" is a clear reference by Jesus to Adam and Eve, the man and the woman
      5. God does the joining, while, on the other hand, man and woman are only the joyful recipients
      6. The facility of "joining" is not attributed to man and/or woman
      7. The facility of "joining" is attributed to God

For expanded topic coverage, please see this integral essay Almighty God's Awesome Creation In Amazing Splendor (not a ChristianityBoard.com link),

If anyone venture a reply to this thread, I encourage diligent care for it is written "do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6).

May the Lord abound mercy and understanding and strength and grace in we His own for the Day approaches rapidly!
Hi Kermos,
You have brought out some good food for thought about Adam and his not knowing of "good and evil" before partaking of the fruit. God knew he would do just what he did do, as He knows the end from the beginning of all things. How else could the gospel come about unless A & E did NOT partake? God's plans have already happened in eternity, He knows who will do what and He uses even the bad for His good. His plans are awesome.

Not to get off topic here as, there is allot to digest from your post. But...I do believe that man now does have free will to choose whom to serve. If we ask for the Holy Spirit :
Luke 11:9-13
"So if you, despite being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him? What father among you, if his son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead? 12Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? 13So if you who are evil know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him…"

So, will He deny this to anyone who seeks Him? Or, will He harden their hearts because they are not of "the elect"?
I will be saving this post for further study.
God Bless!

 

Kermos

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The point is not about Eve having a choice is it?

The point focuses in on the scriptural fact that none of mankind can choose God.

There is no level that a person can choose God, for the Word of God says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) - Jesus, being the Word of God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!

The assertion would be that Eve was always eating of that tree without any result at all.

Your assertion fails on several accounts, including:

1) No scripture states that "Eve was always eating of that tree without any result at all".

2) Eve acknowledged the command of God when she said "God has said, 'You shall not eat from it or touch it, or you will die.'" (Genesis 3:3), and in the surrounding account, Eve expressed that God commanded the provision of trees for Adam and Eve's dietary provision (Genesis 3:2); therefore, the command of God about the trees applies to Eve as well (Genesis 2:16-17).

The whole point is scripturally examined at Almighty God's Awesome Creation In Amazing Splendor
 
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GISMYS_7

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Think!!! If you are choosen by God and another not choosen==WHY??? Answer = God is outside time and knew before you were born that you would choose to believe and accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior and another would choose to reject Him ===example of that truth is Jacob and Esau ===Jacob was loved by God before he was born but Easu was hated.
 

Kermos

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There is no choice indicated for Adam and Eve in the creation account, and this is born out by scripture indicated at this essay Almighty God's Awesome Creation In Amazing Splendor

Gen 3:
[1] Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

CLUE: the Serpent "initiated" conversation...
Got the Woman's Attention.

Gen 3:
[2] And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
WARNING:
[3] But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of "it" ( the fruit of "the" Tree in the midst of the garden) neither shall ye touch it,

CONSEQUENCE (IF you touch it, IF you Eat of it.)
... lest ye die.

Gen 3:
[6] And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

You elaborated on: her seeing.
You say present tense:
"saw" is past tense.
"was" is past tense.
"took" is past tense.
"did eat" is past tense.

In Genesis 3:6, the Hebrew words are the imperfect sense which means not complete in the narrative; therefore, the words should be rendered in English in the present tense.

The words should be "see", "is", "takes", and "eats" (or some verb phrase that includes the present).

"so has been seeing, the woman, when the tree was good for food and when it was a delight to the eyes, and the tree was desirable to make wise, so she has been taking from it's fruit and has been eating, and she has been giving also to her husband with her, and he has been eating" (Genesis 3:6).

"good food" "pleasant fruit" are not stand alone "bad" things.

"desire for wisdom" is not a stand alone "bad" thing.

She made a decision/ a choice.

You just added "choice" to Genesis 3:6. You write that "choice" is in Genesis 3:6, but "choice" is not in Genesis 3:6; therefore, you added "choice" to Genesis 3:6.

Action is expressly indicated in Genesis 3:6. The "she has been taking from it's fruit and has been eating" narrative in Genesis 3:6 contains action with the verb phrase of "has been taking" and "has been eating" - those are actions expressed in Genesis 3:6.

Genesis 3:6 records an "action" not a "choice". Action is expressly indicated in Genesis 3:6.

She reached out her hand and "took".
She put the fruit to her mouth and "did eat".

* Gods presence was IN the Garden.
* The man & woman were IN the Garden.
* God was teaching "Good" Knowledge, via His Word.
* The Serpent got the woman's attention.
* The woman listened to the Serpent.
* The woman talked to the Serpent.
* The woman decided:
...The fruit was good for food.
...The fruit was pleasant.
...The fruit would give her desired wisdom.

What the woman DID NOT KNOW:
* "Good and Evil" Is NOT Wisdom.
* God IS Good.
* Serpent IS Evil.
* Gods Wisdom IS Good through Truth.
* Serpents Wisdom IS Evil through Trickery.
* The woman WAS NOT yet "prepared" in enough of Gods Good Knowledge of Truth...
To Recognize the Serpents Evil Wisdom of Trickery.

According to "the advantage of knowledge is that wisdom preserves the life of him who has it" (Ecclesiastes 7:12), "wisdom" is dependent upon "knowledge".

You place "wisdom" outside of "knowledge" in your post.

The Word of God indicates that the man and woman gained "knowledge" of good and evil AFTER eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 3:22); therefore, they did not have the "knowledge" of good and evil BEFORE eating of the tree.

The woman MADE a FREEWILL choice, To Listen to the Serpent, Consider the Serpents words, Act on the Serpents words.

Neither "freewill" nor "choice" are in the creation account in Genesis chapter 1 to even after the creation account in Genesis chapter 6.

It is a LESSON:
Prepare your Children IN your home, IN the Good Word of God, Before they leave your home, Because Evil IS in the World, Even may be within your home, always Ready To get the attention of "the unknowing" and "undermine" Gods Truth with Evil Deception.

The man and woman, Learned through Trial and Error.
They had Twin boys. Cain first, Then Abel.
Cain displeased God.
Abel pleased God.
Cain killed Abel.
(LESSON: Good and Evil can be IN ONE families home).
The woman bare a third son, Seth.
The woman SAID:
Gen 4:
"...For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew..."

In Abel's STEAD, (who was pleasing TO God),
STOOD "Seth"...

And Scripture Reveals: through Seth...
Gen 4:
[26] And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD.

"Knowledge" (NOT Wisdom), OF "Good AND Evil" became a natural born earthlings innate
"Understanding", through Adam.

Wisdom IS "Choosing" To act on Gods Good Knowledge.

Now you flat out redefine the word "wisdom" by including "choosing", yet the word "wisdom" truly means "thinking" and "considering".

Hear this, Jesus Christ is the wisdom of God (1 Corinthians 1:24).

For a person to have righteous wisdom, such a person must have the mind of Christ (1 Corinthians 2:16).

Wisdom that is of God is dependent on God; in other words, a person cannot think (wisdom) rightly without the indwelling Spirit of the Living God.

A person that does things (acts) rightly is a person that bears fruit of the the Spirit.

As is clearly evident, widsom (thinking rightly) is dependent upon God, not man, but upon God (1 Corinthians 1:24, 1 Corinthians 2:16).

People Naturally "make Choices", By "exercising Their Freewill", TO ACT.

God, Freely Chose to Create mankind, teach them Good, Warn Them, Correct them.
The Serpent, Freely Chose to Deceive the woman.
The woman, Freely Chose to Eat the Fruit.
The man, Freely Chose to Eat the Fruit.
Cain, Freely Chose to kill Abel.
Cain, Freely TRIED, to Fool God, with Deception. (It Failed)
Seth, was Appointed IN (deceptive Cains) stead.
Through Seth's son, Enos (Enosh), Men began to CALL ON...focus their Attention ON Gods (Good) Knowledge.

It's a LESSON;
Exercise your Own FREEWILL TO Focus ON the GOOD Knowledge of Gods Word of Truth.

DO Good, Experience the Results of Having Done Good...and Thus you Have Gained valuable Wisdom.



Out of Context:
Jesus is With "His Disciples", Talking "to His Disciples".
We are already Aware Jesus, "Expressly" picked and "Chose" "them" to follow Him.

Every individual Who Freely follows AND Freely Submits TO God has themselves...
Chosen/ ELECTED God.
They Have Freely Chosen to MAKE the Heavenly Lord God...."Their" ELECT, Supreme Above All God.

EX. 20:
[3] Thou shalt have no other gods "before me."

1 Thes 1:
[4] Knowing, brethren beloved, "your" election of God.

You are standing on man's understanding.
I disagree.
Gods ORDER, Gods WAY, Gods UNDERSTANDING is Paramount.

Glory to God,
Taken

You rule yourself out of being a disciple of Christ in your writing. You even wrote that disciples, including the eleven, "They Have Freely Chosen to MAKE the Heavenly Lord God" - you did that when faced with the very Word of God saying "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16). You have no scriptue to support your claim because you add "choice" where there is no choice indicated.

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!
 

Taken

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There is no choice indicated for Adam and Eve in the creation account...

Eh...sure there is;

They may eat...Does NOT mean "required to eat". Yes they HAD choices to Eat or not, from every tree in the garden!

Gen 2:
[16] And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

One Consequence if "they choose" to Eat from a tree told to avoid.

Gen 2:
[17] But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it:
 

Kermos

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If free will does not exist, then no one is responsible for any of their behavior. By this view, God is responsible for all of our sins; this would make Jesus' death a payment for God's mistakes, not for our mistakes. Having no free will distorts the message from Jesus' life on Earth. The implications of arguing against free will are straightforward. By this view, murdering someone does not make one guilty of murder.

Now, I do agree that lower animals do not have free will; so, if a lower animal kills another animal we do not consider that to be a murder. If humans do not have free will, then humans are like the lower animals; the 10 commandments would be worthless because humans could not commit murder. I do believe that humans were like the lower animals at some point in the distant past and, therefore, humans did not have free will prior to the Fall.

Hello MattMooradian,

Your post utterly lacks scriptural support; in other words, you have no citations to support your thoughts.

In your very first sentence, you deviate from scripture.
  1. Your postulate of "then no one is responsible for any of their behavior" is dependent upon your conditional of "If free will does not exist".
  2. No scripture indicates that man has a free will to choose God; therefore, your conditional is based upon unscriptural "free will".

You then try to integrate the sin of man into God, yet scripture clearly indicates that man is born in sin (Ephesians 2:1-3); in fact, Paul ties the first nature (old things) to Adam and he ties the heavenly nature (new creation) to God, and here are the citations:
Just like the first man, Adam, from the earth, earthy (1 Corinthians 15:47)
FOR through Adam sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men (Romans 5:12)
AND respecting the first nature all people have no choice in the matter, all people enter life with the sin nature (Colossians 1:13-14, Colossians 1:21-22)
YET people in the first nature are incapable of pleasing God (Romans 8:8)
AND people of the first nature cannot understand spiritual things of God (1 Corinthians 2:14)
SO God's regeneration of men in the renewing by the Holy Spirit results in a new creation (2 Corinthians 5:17, Titus 3:5)
AND by the act of God, the old things passed away while the new creature has come (2 Corinthians 5:17)

There is no sin in God.

Man is accountable for man's sin against God (Jeremiah 31:30).

You claim that a thing called free will, which has no scriptural support, distorts the message of Christ. You argue that something that does not exist negates Christ's work.

Essentially, you write that man's prideful free-will "choice" of God is adequeate to take salvation; moreover, the free-will "choice" is a work. Let's look as your writing Biblically:
  1. God opposes the prideful (James 4:6).
  2. Paul wrote "Not that we are adequate in ourselves to consider anything as [coming] from ourselves, but our adequacy is from God" (2 Corinthians 3:5).
  3. Lord Jesus says "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29) - NOT A WORK OF MAN - FAITH/BELIEF IS THE WORK OF GOD.
  4. Paul wrote "by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His work" (Ephesians 2:8-10) - NOT A WORK OF MAN - FAITH/BELIEF IS THE WORK OF GOD.
  5. The Word of God says "he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God" (John 3:21) - DEEDS/WORKS MANIFESTED AS WROUGHT IN GOD - NOT MAN - WROUGHT IN GOD.

The work of Christ is to save His own, we who are under the authority of the King of the Kingdom of God (John 10:27-29).

God's good message is that salvation and sanctification are all about Christ (the whole Bible)!

There is no free will indicated in the creation account nor subsequent to the creation account.

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!
 

Kermos

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It seems to me then, that God was asking the impossible from his created being, Adam, when he commanded Adam to not eat from the forbidden tree, if as you say, there was no way for Adam to avoid eating from the forbidden tree. I honestly don't believe God asks the impossible from his created creatures.

God did not ask (you used the word "asking") Adam to not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; on the contrary, God commanded Adam that Adam not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 2:16-17). There is a difference between asking and commanding.

You wrote "I honestly don't believe God asks the impossible from his created creatures" which directly contradicts the words of the Apostle Peter who said "why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?" (Acts 15:10), so people are incapable of keeping the commandments to God's satisfaction (James 2:10).

Concerning item 2.2 you say basically, " it's impossible of man to interrupt God's plan of redemption. I agree with that, that mankind can't interrupt God's plan of redemption, but I see nowhere in the scriptures where man needed redemption until Adam ate from the forbidden tree. When God first created Adam first brought him into existence, God created Adam without sin, he was sinless and remained sinless until he ate of the forbidden tree. So when God first created Adam there was no plan of redemption that I can see until Adam ate of the forbidden tree. Now I agree that God made a plan to redeem mankind after Adam ate from the forbidden tree and no one can interrupt that redemption plan, but as I said, I have seen no redemption plan come into existence in the scriptures until after Adam ate of the forbidden tree.

The Apostle Peter differs from your writing, for the Apostle Peter wrote "but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and unspotted - Christ`s - foreknown, indeed, before the foundation of the world, and manifested in the last times because of you, who through him do believe in God, who did raise out of the dead, and glory to him did give, so that your faith and hope may be in God. Your souls having purified in the obedience of the truth through the Spirit to brotherly love unfeigned, out of a pure heart one another love ye earnestly," (1 Peter 1:19-22 YLT)

The precious blood of Christ's sacrifice for the atonement of sins known before the foundation of the world.

Item 2.2 is true as written in the original post.

Your interpretation violates item 2.2.

At item 3 you said that Adam could not have known good from evil prior to eating of the forbidden tree. At Genesis 2:17; Genesis 3:5; Genesis 3:22 The ??good and evil?? in these three texts seems to refer to the one thing. Adam and Eve knew something about evil before eating the fruit from the ??tree of the knowledge of good and evil??. (Gen. 2:17) They knew it would be wrong for them to eat that fruit, and they knew that death was an evil to be shunned. To ??be as gods, knowing good and evil?? seems to mean more than just helpful knowledge of what is right and what is wrong. (Gen. 3:5) The word gods could mean just Jehovah God, since the Hebrew word here is Elohim and can mean either God (Jehovah) or gods. If it means gods, then it could refer to Jehovah God and his master worker and only-begotten Son, the Logos. It was to that one that Jehovah said, at Genesis 3:22: ??Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil.??

To know ??good and evil?? as Jehovah and his only-begotten Son know it would seem to mean to know good and evil for yourself, that is, you make the decision of what is good and what is evil, you judge what is right and what is wrong. Adam and Eve were no longer theocratic, no longer looked to God as the Universal Sovereign over all creatures, no longer accepted him as the one to determine right and wrong. They were going to determine for themselves what they were going to do on the earth, and not let God be the Supreme Arbiter.

Hence to the more responsible man, the woman??s head, Jehovah said in substance: ??All right, Adam, if you want to be non-theocratic you go your own way. Decide for yourself what is good and evil from your viewpoint. You have no place in the garden of Eden. This garden is for theocratic people who are subject to me. Now get out.?? This view of the matter harmonizes with the fact that God does not assign the committing of sin as the reason for ousting Adam from Eden, but says it was because ??the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil?? and therefore should have no opportunity to eat of the tree of life. All this seems to me that both Adam and Eve had free will, therefore it seems to me that mankind has free will.

In item 2.3 (you wrote item 3, so I'm just clarifying), Adam and EVe could NOT know what evil was before eating of the tree because God says "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil" (Genesis 3:22); therefore, in God's statement it is clear that for Adam and Even the verb phrase "has become" means that Adam and Eve did not have the knowledge of good and evil before eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; on the other hand, Adam and Eve did have a command not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

When you start talking about gods, you digress from whether Adam or Eve knew good and evil before eating of the tree, of which they did not know good and evil for such says the Word of God.

You then try to add to the Word of God by injection a "decision" (also "Decide") into the creation account where the word nor concept occurs. Adding to the Word of God is deadly.

Your interpretation violates item 2.3.

No scripture indicates that Adam and Eve had a freewill, and for a person to believe that Adam and Eve had a freewill is to add freewill to scripture. Please see Almighty God's Awesome Creation In Amazing Splendor
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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Kermos said
God did not ask (you used the word "asking") Adam to not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; on the contrary, God commanded Adam that Adam not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 2:16-17). There is a difference between asking and commanding.[/Quote\]
You of course know what I was trying to say to you, when I said, "it seems to me God was asking the impossible from Adam when God commanded Adam to not eat from the forbidden tree." I honestly don't think you're that ignorant that you didn't know what I was saying, but if I'm wrong and you are that ignorant and don't know what I was trying to say, I'll put it this way, " I don't believe that God commands his creations to do or not do something that's impossible for them to do or not do." When you or someone says that God knew Adam was going to be disobedient before creating him, then God would be commanding Adam to do something that was impossible for him to do. If God looked into the future before creating Adam and sees him being disobedient, then that is exactly what's going to happen, Adams course was set before he was even created. God can command Adam to not eat of the forbidden tree , but since you and others say that God knew he would be disobedient before even creating him God was commanding Adam to obey a command that was impossible for him to obey, and like I said I don't believe God commands his creations to obey impossible commands. Now I believe that because of the way God created his creations, whether they be Angels or humans, God creating them with free will, he knew there was the possibility for any of his creations to choose to be disobedient. That doesn't mean however that God looked into the future to see whether or not Adam would be disobedient or not.
 
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BARNEY BRIGHT

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Kermos says
The Apostle Peter differs from your writing, for the Apostle Peter wrote "but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and unspotted - Christ`s - foreknown, indeed, before the foundation of the world, and manifested in the last times because of you, who through him do believe in God, who did raise out of the dead, and glory to him did give, so that your faith and hope may be in God. Your souls having purified in the obedience of the truth through the Spirit to brotherly love unfeigned, out of a pure heart one another love ye earnestly," (1 Peter 1:19-22 YLT)[/Quote\]

I know you believe that the Apostle Peter disagrees with me by the way you choose to look at 1Peter 1:19-22, but I choose to look at many scriptures that contain the phrases, "before thefoundation of the world" or "from the foundation of the world," and keep them in context.

Let's take the word koʹsmos, in one basic sense, it refers to all humankind. The Scriptures therefore describe the koʹsmos, or world, as being guilty of sin (Joh 1:29; Ro 3:19; 5:12, 13) and needing a savior to give it life (Joh 4:42; 6:33, 51; 12:47; 1Jo 4:14), things applicable only to mankind, not to the inanimate creation nor to the animals. This is the world that God loved so much that “he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life.” (Joh 3:16, 17; compare 2Co 5:19; 1Ti 1:15; 1Jo 2:2.) That world of mankind forms the field in which Jesus Christ sowed the fine seed, “the sons of the kingdom.”—Mt 13:24, 37, 38.

At John 1:10 it says of Jesus that “the world [koʹsmos] came into existence through him.” While it is true that Jesus shared in the production of all things, including the heavens and the planet Earth and all things in it, koʹsmos here applies primarily to humankind in whose production Jesus likewise shared. (Compare Joh 1:3; Col 1:15-17; Ge 1:26.) Hence, the rest of the verse says: “But the world [that is, the world of mankind] did not know him.”

“The fondation of the world.” then has a clear connection of koʹsmos with the world of mankind and aids one in understanding what is meant by “the foundation of the world,” as referred to in a number of texts. These texts speak of certain things as taking place ‘from the foundation of the world.’ These include the ‘shedding of the blood of the prophets’ from the time of Abel onward, a ‘kingdom prepared,’ and ‘names being written on the scroll of life.’ (Lu 11:50, 51; Mt 25:34; Re 13:8; 17:8; compare Mt 13:35; Heb 9:26.) Such things relate to human life and activity, and hence “the foundation of the world” relates to the beginning of mankind, not of the inanimate creation or the animal creation. Hebrews 4:3 shows that God’s creative works were, not started, but “finished from the foundation of the world.” Since Eve was evidently the last of Jehovah’s earthly creative works, the world’s foundation could not precede her.

The Greek term (ka·ta·bo·leʹ) for “foundation” can refer to the conceiving of seed in human conception. Ka·ta·bo·leʹ literally means “a throwing down [of seed]” and at Hebrews 11:11 may be rendered “conceive." Its use there evidently refers to Abraham’s ‘throwing down’ human seed for the begetting of a son and Sarah’s receiving that seed so as to be fertilized.

Therefore “the foundation of the world” isn't to be taken to mean the beginning of the creation of the material universe, nor does the expression “before the foundation of the world” (Joh 17:5, 24; Eph 1:4; 1Pe 1:20) refer to a point of time prior to the creation of the material universe. Rather, these expressions relate to the time when the human race was ‘founded’ through the first human pair, Adam and Eve, who, outside of Eden, began to conceive seed that could benefit from God’s provisions for deliverance from inherited sin.—Ge 3:20-24; 4:1, 2.
 
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BARNEY BRIGHT

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Kermos says:
Adam and EVe could NOT know what evil was before eating of the tree because God says "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil" (Genesis 3:22); therefore, in God's statement it is clear that for Adam and Even the verb phrase "has become" means that Adam and Eve did not have the knowledge of good and evil before eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; on the other hand, Adam and Eve did have a command not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.[/Quote\]

What I was trying to say is the first human pair were not devoid of knowledge of good and bad. God had told them that it would be wrong or bad to eat of the fruit of one designated tree; so Adam knew that to obey God was good and to disobey God would be bad. In other words Adam understood the command (Gen. 2:16, 17) So the particular “knowledge” indicated by the “tree of the knowledge of good and bad” involved a self-determinatio of what is good and bad. On this, Professor T. J. Conant wrote: “By disregarding the divine will, and deciding and acting on his own, man chose to know for himself what is good and evil.” Yes, Adam and Eve rejected God’s determination and chose to set up their own standard of what was good and what was bad. That's what that scripture means when God says Adam and Eve had become like them. Instead of Adam and Eve allowing God to decide what was good or Evil for Adam and Eve they decided that they like God could decide what was good or Evil for themselves, without God's input.
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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Kermos says:
No scripture indicates that Adam and Eve had a freewill, and for a person to believe that Adam and Eve had a freewill is to add freewill to scripture[/Quote\]

What is free will, simply put isn't it having the ability to choose to obey or disobey God? Adam was capable of either obeying the command to not eat of the forbidden tree or to be disobedient to that command. Are you saying that Adam wasn't capable of obeying or disobeying God when God created him/them?
 

Kermos

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God is outside of time (Isaiah 57:15).

"For thus says the high and exalted One Who lives forever, whose name is Holy, "I dwell [on] a high and holy place, And [also] with the contrite and lowly of spirit In order to revive the spirit of the lowly And to revive the heart of the contrite" (Isaiah 57:15).

Your claimed exposition of Isaiah 57:15 does not match with the verse. The verse does not state that "God is outside of time".

Now, there is no free will indicated for man in the creation account which is clearly indicated in the original post to this thread.
 

justbyfaith

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"For thus says the high and exalted One Who lives forever, whose name is Holy, "I dwell [on] a high and holy place, And [also] with the contrite and lowly of spirit In order to revive the spirit of the lowly And to revive the heart of the contrite" (Isaiah 57:15).

Your claimed exposition of Isaiah 57:15 does not match with the verse. The verse does not state that "God is outside of time".

Now, there is no free will indicated for man in the creation account which is clearly indicated in the original post to this thread.
You didn't look at it in the kjv.

Isa 57:15, For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.
 

justbyfaith

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"For thus says the high and exalted One Who lives forever, whose name is Holy, "I dwell [on] a high and holy place, And [also] with the contrite and lowly of spirit In order to revive the spirit of the lowly And to revive the heart of the contrite" (Isaiah 57:15).

Your claimed exposition of Isaiah 57:15 does not match with the verse. The verse does not state that "God is outside of time".

Now, there is no free will indicated for man in the creation account which is clearly indicated in the original post to this thread.
Clearly, there is free will in man (Joshua 24:15, John 1:12, Revelation 22:17, Revelation 3:20).
 
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WaterSong

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Good OP. Given the substance and definition of, Free Will, neither Eve ,who ate first, nor Adam, had the capacity to exercise discretion any more than would a newborn given the same command by anyone with great knowledge.
 

Renniks

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also freewill is a delusion of this society because the millions and billions in the rest of the world don't have the freedom to go do what they would like to. so those who live in governed territory where there is a concept of freedom think they are entitled it therefore think that its even God will. but these types of freedoms are in the same prison of condemnation as all men, but have nothing to do with God choice.
Thats ridiculous. Everyone everywhere in the world has limited choices. Just because they are under a certain type of government doesn't mean they don't have free will. if that were the case no one could ever decide to overthrow the government...or make any of the other million choices we all make every day.
 

Renniks

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That is you adding "free will" someplace about Adam, and that is called adding to scripture, Enoch111. No place, and I mean NO PLACE, does scripture state tha Adam CHOSE to disobey; therefore, you are adding to scripture which carries severe punishment.
"You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die." (Genesis 3:3). The serpent replied, "You certainly won't die!" (Genesis 3:4).

Your whole concept is absurd to the nth degree.
If no choice exists, then no disobedience is possible.
 

WaterSong

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The Bible does not have to state explicitly that Adam had free will. The fact that he CHOSE to disobey God is sufficient.
How could Adam make an informed choice to either obey or disobey? When he possessed no knowledge of right and wrong. Synonymous terms to , good and evil.
Only after he consumed the forbidden fruit that gave him the Gnosis/Knowledge as like unto God, knowing right from wrong, good and evil, would he have made an informed choice, to either obey or disobey God's ultimatum.

Neither Adam nor Eve were mentally equipped to obey God's edict prior to eating of the fruit that bestowed that conscious awareness of free choice upon them.

Which is what good and evil, and making a choice to either obey or disobey, is. An informed choice.

Which they could not exercise because they did not possess the knowledge of obedience as opposed to disobedience because they did not know what it meant to make an informed choice of either the good or the evil.

Therefore the short answer to the OP question , Was Adam imparted free will from the beginning of Creation?, is, absolutely not. And because of God's creation of them to be devoid of free will.

Also? Ever consider on the 6th day when God gazed upon all that he had created, including that forbidden tree the fruit of which would damn humanity to be sinners until Omniscient God's grace altered that, was called "good"?
A tree Omniscient creator of it knew would be consumed and alter humanities future was first labeled good by its creator.
Curious, don't you think?

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