Was James confused?

[bbyrd009]

as you said

you mean as you insisted upon misunderstanding, and are not interested in the reality of the concept, or in what God has to say on the matter, as you have made abundantly plain already

 

[bbyrd009]

But like so many you can't see the difference.

yes right, i'm just another lost soul who does not measure up to H Richard's standards i guess, tra-la
whatever will i do, boo-hoo boo-hoo

 

[H. Richard]

oh, well by "we" i didn't mean you of course, as you would obviously argue with a post, or Jesus.

***
And it seems you will argue with a post too. When Jesus came the Jews were under the law. We are not under the law.. We are under grace. But it seems you would rather be under the law.

 

[bbyrd009]

goodbye, Richard, and best of luck to you ok

 

[Copperhead]

I did not originate this concept but it seems to sum things up pretty well regarding faith.

We are to pitch our tent with the Lord and learn how He pitches His tent with us. Faith is not simply a belief or trust. It is much more than that. And if one is indeed pitching their tent with Yeshua, that person will be living with Him and seek to emulate Him.

And if you emulate someone, the results will show, which is the works or deeds that I believe James is referring to. The outward results that show an emulating of Yeshua in regards to others and to the Father others can see.

If I see a child emulating a super hero from their TV show or a movie, it shows. They will act like that person they are emulating. I will be able to tell they are emulating Super Man or whomever. It will show in the words they use, what they may have on that expresses that character, and what they do during play time with other children.

A member of a "gang" of some sort will try to emulate the the gang and the leader of that gang and show they are affiliated with that gang.

It really is no different regarding a person and the Lord. Others should be able to tell. That is the deeds that flow from that emulating relationship. But they only mean anything if they emulate and glorify the Lord. Efforts done just to make ourselves feel or look good or to show we are better than others, and done with selfish motives.... all wood, hay, and stubble destined to be burned up.

 

[Stranger]

GodsGrace

This may be overly lengthy so I will probably use more than one post. This is my explanation to you concerning we who are Christians keeping the Law. This is not just from me, but from what I have learned over the years through many others. I located some notes I have during Bible studies I have given. I read through them and still agree with them. So that is what I am giving you here.

Let's start with (Romans 6:6-8) "Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe we shall also live with him. "

The 'old man' here is Adam. It is all that your are in Adam be it good or bad. Your old man, all that your are in Adam, is dead; crucified. You still have your link to the old man in this body of flesh and blood. This body was not born-again, only your spirit was. You will one day have a new body, a glorified body, which is not linked to Adam. But for now, you have a new spirit in an old body.

All that you are in Adam has been crucified. You are a new creation with the Spirit of Christ in you. This gives you the ability to walk in the Spirit and not in the flesh, which in turn will subjugate this body of sin, destroying its effects on you. Which means you are no longer a slave to sin.

Do not equate walking in the Spirit with not sinning. You cannot do that now while you have this body of sin draped around you. Wherever your spirit goes this body of sin goes with you. You have been freed from sin, but not freed from this body of sin. But, all the sins this body can produce are in Adam and have been crucified. Thus you are free from sin...past, present, and future.

Remember, you have been freed from sin, not because you no longer sin, but because you are in Christ and Christ died to all sin. Now I also can live with Christ. I can walk in this newness of life that I have. For I have the Spirit of Christ in me. I can walk in the Spirit. I can live unto God as Jesus lives unto God.

(Rom.6:9-10) "Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more, death hath no more dominion over him. For in that he died, he died unto sin once; but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God."

Christ died one time and that destroyed all sin for all time. He will never die again. There is no sin that hasn't been covered in His death. Being raised from the dead, Jesus Christ now lives. And He doesn't live with the worry that you or I are going to sin too much that He hasn't covered it, and might have to die again. Jesus focus is now living unto God, not the sin question. It has been dealt with.

(continued)

Srtanger

 

[bbyrd009]

Christ died one time and that destroyed all sin for all time.

and yet sin still exists, so imo you cannot support this concept from Scripture. Sin has not been destroyed. You have been given a Way to overcome sin, if you follow, and if you do not follow, your sin is upon yourself still.

 

[tabletalk]

Started in which board?
I cant see it.
Link?

The nonChristian help forum.

 

[Helen]

***
In what you wrote did you tell me where YOU have paced your faith? I don't seem to see it. What I want to see is your personal statement of where you have placed your faith. Come on, surly you know what you have placed your faith in.

I think my time on this thread is running out. You, and others, accuse my faith as being easy believism. With people like you it certainly isn't easy.

What on earth are you talking about?

I wrote my post in SUPPORT of you position.

 

[Stranger]

GodsGrace

(continued from #306)

Because Christ's focus is no longer on the sin question but on living unto God, then we should also do the same. (Rom.6:11) "Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord." Know this, whether you reckon it or not, it is so. (Rom. 6:3), "...know ye not...." (Rom.6:9)"...knowing that...." But, in order for you to have the experience of freedom; the confidence of who you are in Christ; you must reckon it so.

While on this earth, Jesus Christ always had the cross in view. It was necessary. It was a weight. Sin must be dealt with. His life was centered on that. But, once that was done, He no longer lives with that weight. And neither should we.

(Rom. 6:12-13) "Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. "

Your mortal body is a body of sin and will always be a body of sin till it dies. But, sin doesn't have to reign in your body. All that you are in Adam is crucified with Christ and you have new life, thus the ability to walk in that life. The body of sin must be made subject to you and not you to it.

The wording of (6:13) is interesting. Paul could have said it in legal or law terms. Such as don't do this, or do that etc. Instead, he says "Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness...but yield yourselves unto God...and your members as instruments of righteousness".

Because you have this body of sin, it's always looking for every opportunity to sin. You as a believer with a spirit alive unto God can yield your members to sin. And yielding causes sin to reign in you body. Or, you can yield yourself to God.

Note that Paul didn't say to first yield your members as instruments of righteousness. He said first, yield yourselves unto God. Turn your attention on to Him. Then follows the yielding of your members unto righteousness. (6:13) "As those that are alive from the dead." Remember who you are. That is what God is concerned with. If your attention is on who your are, then the body will be brought under submission. (Gal.5:16) "This I say then, walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh."

Never try and bring the body into submission by the law. That is pouring gas on the fire. You bring the body of sin into submission by walking in the Spirit. Your attention is not on 'not sinning'. It is on God and walking with Him. The natural result is that the body is made to heel.

(continued)

Stranger

 

[KBCid]

Thank you for your opinion but I don't share it. If your faith is not in Jesus' work on the cross it is an empty faith because the only thing left is faith in yourself.
What I see on this thread is a constant attack on my faith in God and I see no reason to continue. What I have already seen is that many only have faith in their own works. I knew that if I confronted some with having to answer as to what the have placed their faith in their answer would be in their works. And according to scriptures that will only buy a place in a very hot place.

What you are not getting here is that I have a living faith. My living faith in Christ's sacrifice as payment for the sins of those who will be forgiven is composed of the belief that it is true and my desire to be like him in doing good works because of my faith.

IF YOUR FAITH PRODUCES NO FRUIT THEN HOW CAN YOU CONSIDER IT FAITH?

Psalm 36:1-4 Transgression speaks to the ungodly within his heart; There is no fear of God before his eyes. For it flatters him in his own eyes Concerning the discovery of his iniquity and the hatred of it. The words of his mouth are wickedness and deceit; He has ceased to be wise and to do good.

Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Acts 10:37 "You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.

Galatians 6:9-10 Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary. So then, while we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, and especially to those who are of the household of the faith.

Luke 6:30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again. 31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise. 32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them. 33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same. 34 And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again. 35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. 36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.

Romans 2:5-11 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; read more.
but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God.

1 Timothy 6:17-19 Instruct those who are rich in this present world not to be conceited or to fix their hope on the uncertainty of riches, but on God, who richly supplies us with all things to enjoy. Instruct them to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share, storing up for themselves the treasure of a good foundation for the future, so that they may take hold of that which is life indeed.

 

[GodsGrace]

***

I get it. When Jesus said He only came to the lost sheep of the house of Israel he lied to us, Right??????

First of all, you need to post scripture.
Second of all, have you read the entire bible including the O.T., or just this one verse you're asking me about?

Jesus NEVER lied.
There's something here that YOU are not understanding.
Did you study the covenants?

 

[Stranger]

GodsGrace

(continued from #310)

This doesn't make the body of sin any better. It's still a body of sin. But, it's not allowed to control. Sin is not allowed to reign. But, it is still full of sin.

And, though you may yield your members as instruments of sin, that sin doesn't touch your spirit which has been born again. Note that Paul didn't say you could yield yourself to sin. You could only yield your members to sin. Concerning yourself, you yield to God. Concerning you which have been born again, you cannot sin. (1 John 3:9) Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

So God is making some very stark, and unbelievable to most, distinctions. But He can do that because the Word of God divides between spirit, soul, and body. (Heb. 4:12) "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."

(Rom.6:14) "For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace." Sin will not rule over you. Why? Not because you try and keep the law. Not because you don't sin. Because you are under grace. The law can't reach you as you are dead to all that Adam is. And the law has nothing on a dead man. And it is the law which is the strength of sin. (1Cor.15:56) "The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law." You who are born-again by the Spirit of God, the law cannot reach.

I am aware of (1John 1:8) "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." And Paul is not saying that we have no sin. But he is getting to the very divisions of body, soul, and spirit, and showing us how it works with God. He locates it in the body. Yes I know I sin. God says that which is born of Him does not sin. (1 John 3:9) "...for his seed remaineth in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."

Stranger

 

[bbyrd009]

What on earth are you talking about?

I wrote my post in SUPPORT of you position.

ha what, you don't really think he read it or anything do you lol
anything other than "you are worthy to be praised" is going to be ignored apparently

 

[amadeus]

Hey Amadeus,
James could be put on the shelf and never taken back down again.
Know why?
JESUS said we are do DO and not only believe.

I keep asking for ONE VERSE that says that all we are to do is believe in Him and nothing else and we will be saved.
NONE FORTHCOMING --- because there is none.

However, there are plenty of teachings of Jesus that say we are TO DO.
So James is not really necessary in the grand scheme of things.

While I do agree, for some people there is no end to this or to other arguments. The Catholics are correct about the arguments among Protestants which continue to splinter apart into yet more sects, but the Catholics are not outside of the problem either. Everyone believes he is are right and that everyone else, of course, is wrong. The only one who is always right is God and again everyone will say that they are on God's side.

Help us dear Lord. No one wants to put his arguments on the shelf and leave the increases to You. As if You are helpless.

 

[GodsGrace]

I understand (Matt. 5:17) to mean that Jesus did not come against the Law of Moses as if it were wrong. It wasn't. He instead came in fulfillment of it.

Yes, because Jesus did fulfill it, the Mosaic Law, we are not under the Law.

What does fulfill mean?

When you say 'we must follow the Law', I am thinking, how is that any different than being under the Law? So, yes, my brief statement is we don't have to follow the Law. But I am afraid with that you will think I am saying some things that I am not

I never think what you might say until you say it.
I don't think you're saying that it's ok to break the law.
But a new Christian might think this.

Being UNDER THE LAW means that we are still in the Old Covenant.
When that was given there was no POWER to keep it.
God told the Israeilites to obey and they said they would.
Of course, it's impossible to keep the Law. We will always sin.
Even though we don't want to..

So what's the difference?
The difference is that in the New Covenant is IS POSSIBLE to keep the law because we work out of Love and not out of Law.
The Law must still be kept, but the method is different.
We want to keep the law because we're a friend of God.
Before we couldn't keep the law because we were a slave of God.

I don't have time right now, but will get back and give some explanation.

Stanger

ok

 

[GodsGrace]

While I do agree, for some people there is no end to this or to other arguments. The Catholics are correct about the arguments among Protestants which continue to splinter apart into yet more sects, but the Catholics are not outside of the problem either. Everyone believes he is are right and that everyone else, of course, is wrong. The only one who is always right is God and again everyone will say that they are on God's side.

Help us dear Lord. No one wants to put his arguments on the shelf and leave the increases to You. As if You are helpless.

I agree with you.
But there are persons reading along here that we're not even aware of.
New Christians cannot learn that the Law has been abolished and that nothing is required of us except to believe in Jesus.
This is nonsense. This was not Jesus' purpose to come to us.

I will always defend Jesus' positon, which is VERY CLEAR and has been for 2,000 years.

All one has to do is read Mathew 5 to 7 and Mathew 25 and EVERY word out of the mouth of our Lord, and he'll learn that Jesus left us with work to do.

He's not going to reach down from heaven and keep His Kingdom going from heaven...

It's up to US to create the kingdom. And to remain in it.
John 3:3

 

[bbyrd009]

You who are born-again by the Spirit of God, the law cannot reach.

ya ok, just try killing someone and see how far you get lol

 

[amadeus]

I agree with you.
But there are persons reading along here that we're not even aware of.
New Christians cannot learn that the Law has been abolished and that nothing is required of us except to believe in Jesus.
This is nonsense. This was not Jesus' purpose to come to us.

"The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly." John 10:10

So then what must we do to receive that Life? Sit back and let it come to us?

I will always defend Jesus' positon, which is VERY CLEAR and has been for 2,000 years.

All one has to do is read Mathew 5 to 7 and Mathew 25 and EVERY word out of the mouth of our Lord, and he'll learn that Jesus left us with work to do.

He's not going to reach down from heaven and keep His Kingdom going from heaven...

It's up to US to create the kingdom. And to remain in it.
John 3:3

Give God the glory and allow Him to work through us. He will, but while our efforts alone would we wasted, with Him at our side we will be on the winning side.

 

[KBCid]

Faith and Works: Paul vs. James
One of the thorniest textual problems any Christian can face is the apparent contradiction between Paul and James. Is justification by faith, as Paul claims, or by works, as James seems to say? This problem actually has a very simple solution.

....Whenever one encounters an apparent contradiction, it's good to keep in mind a basic rule: Always first explore the possibility of a reconciliation between the two. Not all statements that appear to contradict actually do....

...The word "justify" is no different. It has two meanings, not just one. In addition to "absolve, declare free of blame," it can also mean "to demonstrate or prove to be just, right or valid; to show to be well founded." In the case of salvation, the first is the cause; the second is the effect...

...
Which definition did James have in mind? How do we know when he uses the word "justify," that James is not referring to salvation--as Paul clearly is--but rather is pointing to the proof of salvation?

This is remarkably simple to determine. The cause must come before the effect. Salvation must come first, before it can be evidenced in a changed life.
When Paul makes his case for justification by faith, he cites the beginning of Abraham's walk with God in Genesis 15:5-6: "And He took him outside and said, 'Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them.' And He said to him, 'So shall your descendants be.' Then he believed in the Lord; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness."
The justification James has in mind comes much later in Abraham's life, recorded in Genesis 22:12: "And he said, 'Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.'"
Paul and James are citing two different times in Abraham's life, events separated by 25 years. They can't be referring to the same thing.
The works of Abraham that James mentions were a result of justification which came by faith a quarter of a century earlier. Abraham was not being saved again. Rather, he was showing evidence of his salvation. He was being confirmed in the justification by faith that had already been accomplished years before.
Abraham's faith was no passive, intellectual exercise. He proved his faith to God. The words of the text show this to be true: "Now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from me." God witnessed Abraham's faith first-hand, as it were. It was demonstrated. That's why James concludes, "And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, 'And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.'"
Faith and Works: Paul vs. James | Stand to Reason