Was Jesus Heretical? - Why did they crucify Him?

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Earburner

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It's a good thing we are addressing "orthodox" and "heretical" in these topics.
As I anticipated, everyone is fearful of these terms. No need to be, from my perspective.

Wasn't Jesus position on the law "heretical by the scriptures"?
I see him deconstructing the law as he went. And it began with John the Baptist.
But in the Beatitudes, Jesus treats the law as hearsay. "You have heard that it was said..."

"For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John." - Matthew 11:13 NIV

Then what?
In everything That God the Father said and did through Jesus, He was showing the Jews what the soon to be Age of Grace was all about through His Holy Spirit.
The Jews were not worshipping God, but rather they were worshipping the words of the Law.

It's still going on today, by those Christians, who are Literalists, crunching biblical words, like that of Accountants "crunching numbers", saying: "If it doesn't "add up" to the literal written words of God, then it ain't so".1 Cor. 2:5.

Yes, literally, John the Baptist doesn't "add up" to the literal prophetic words of "the spirit of Elijah" the prophet, but to deny that he was, is to disbelieve God in Jesus, who said that he was.

The same goes for the words: "the abomination that maketh desolate", which is Jesus Himself, speaking of "the temple of His body". John 3:19.

And what shall we do with the words about the "two witnesses" in Rev.?
There are none greater than John the baptist and Jesus, who only had the Holy Spirit upon birth.

We could go on with the transfiguration, and what the three disciples said they saw, of which is in direct contrast to what Jesus said of what they would see: John 1:51.

Let's be real, without "the mind (Spirit) of Christ dwelling within us", revealing the meaning of His use of our own literal words of language to us (Isa. 55:8-9), we will have only the "religion" of worshipping words.
 
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Earburner

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It's a good thing we are addressing "orthodox" and "heretical" in these topics.
As I anticipated, everyone is fearful of these terms. No need to be, from my perspective.

Wasn't Jesus position on the law "heretical by the scriptures"?
I see him deconstructing the law as he went. And it began with John the Baptist.
But in the Beatitudes, Jesus treats the law as hearsay. "You have heard that it was said..."

"For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John." - Matthew 11:13 NIV

Then what?
I think you missed how I said what said: "......never was He heretical BY the scriptures."

The Jews thought Jesus to be heretical TO the scriptures, according to "the wisdom of men".
However, Jesus having "the power of God" the Father within Him, was revealing the thoughts of what God Himself interprets and means in the scriptures.
Therefore the truth of God being said through Jesus, was diametrically opposed to the mind of "the natural man" within them, as is equally the case for us all, who do not have the mind of Christ within them.

1 Cor. 2
[5] That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
1 Cor. 2
[14] But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Rom. 8
[9] But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit [mind] of Christ, he is none of his.
John 3:3-8.
 
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MatthewG

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I think you missed how I said what said: "......never was He heretical BY the scriptures."

The Jews thought Jesus to be heretical TO the scriptures, according to "the wisdom of men".
However, Jesus having "the power of God" the Father within Him, was revealing the thoughts of what God Himself interprets and means in the scriptures.
Therefore the truth of God being said through Jesus, was diametrically opposed to the mind of "the natural man" within them, as is equally the case for us all, who do not have the mind of Christ within them.

1 Cor. 2
[5] That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
1 Cor. 2
[14] But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Rom. 8
[9] But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit [mind] of Christ, he is none of his.
John 3:3-8.
It's the wisdom of man, that fails in comparison to the wisdom of the heavenly.
 
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ChristisGod

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Follow-up to the Was Jesus Orthodox? (or Baptist) topic.

The previous thread examined the term 'orthodox".
This thread will focus on the term "heretical".

In the same way that something is not considered orthodox,
it may also be termed as heretical. Thus labeling the person targeted as a heretic.
Such as were burned by the Church at one time.

Was Jesus Heretical?

Arguments or comments from either side are welcome.

Perhaps we should begin by defining heretical?
Jesus was not heretical as far as truth goes. He exposed the errors and hypocrisy of the pharisees and Jewish leaders. So in their eyes Jesus was heretical but only because they were the ones who were actually deceived and were liars. Jesus exposed them for who they really were and they hated Him without a cause. Since He was sinless, holy, righteous, blameless etc..... they were enraged and had to make up lies to have Him killed. Besides all of that it was by the predetermined will and plan of God for these things to unfold just as they did, right on time and He was crucified on the exact day and moment as planned.
 

St. SteVen

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I think you missed how I said what said: "......never was He heretical BY the scriptures."

The Jews thought Jesus to be heretical TO the scriptures, according to "the wisdom of men".
However, Jesus having "the power of God" the Father within Him, was revealing the thoughts of what God Himself interprets and means in the scriptures.
Therefore the truth of God being said through Jesus, was diametrically opposed to the mind of "the natural man" within them, as is equally the case for us all, who do not have the mind of Christ within them.
Fair enough. Thanks for your reply.
Did you follow what I wrote when I said this?

"Wasn't Jesus position on the law "heretical by the scriptures"?
I see him deconstructing the law as he went."
 

St. SteVen

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Jesus was heretical to the Religions of the Jews, but never was He heretical by the scriptures!!

The same is being said against born again Christians today, who can't help but interpret the scriptures through "the mind of Christ that is within them".
1 Cor. 2:5, 16
You say, "against born again Christians"? As opposed to whom?
Who are calling "born again Christians" heretical?
 

St. SteVen

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Jesus was not heretical as far as truth goes.
Isn't that a misunderstanding of the term "heretical"?
This is the reason I have launched these two topics.
There seems to be a misunderstanding, or even fear, surrounding the terms heretical and unorthodox.
 
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Ghada

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Follow-up to the Was Jesus Orthodox? (or Baptist) topic.

The previous thread examined the term 'orthodox".
This thread will focus on the term "heretical".

In the same way that something is not considered orthodox,
it may also be termed as heretical. Thus labeling the person targeted as a heretic.
Such as were burned by the Church at one time.

Was Jesus Heretical?

Arguments or comments from either side are welcome.

Perhaps we should begin by defining heretical?
Heresy to the Bible is any belief or teaching that plainly contradicts the words of the Bible. All else is open to interpretation.

Jesus was heretical to the Jews religious leaders by not obeying their traditions, that were heretical to the Bible and law of Moses.

But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.


They crucified Him because He was proving they were blind guides by doctrine and works, and their personal power over the people was being shaken to the core. They threatened and then killed apostles and other Christians like Stephen for doing the same thing.

And when they found them not, they drew Jason and certain brethren unto the rulers of the city, crying, These that have turned the world upside down are come hither also;

In the end, they had Him killed because they cared only about their place of power over their nation (John 11:48), and cared nothing at all for the God of Israel, His covenant, and the children of Israel. Well, they cared about it, but only how to use it for their on rule and benefit.

There's been the same abuse of Christian ministry going on since the apostles. One such dominator over the faith of others is Diotrephes personally called out in 3 John.
 

Earburner

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Fair enough. Thanks for your reply.
Did you follow what I wrote when I said this?

"Wasn't Jesus position on the law "heretical by the scriptures"?
I see him deconstructing the law as he went."
The 10C Law was not written so that it should give the gift of eternal life, by one following it to the letter. Nor was the letter of the Law to be an object of worship, to prove that one is godly, and therefore by keeping it, one is approved of God.

The Law was given to reveal that which is sin, and to convince and convict us of comitting sin.
Rom. 3
[19] Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
[20] Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
[21] But now the righteousness of God WITHOUT the law is MANIFESTED [Jesus Himself], being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Of verse 21, I have shown that in the first paragraph of my post 21:
"In everything That God the Father said and did through Jesus, He was showing the Jews what the soon to be Age of Grace was all about through His Holy Spirit.
The Jews were not worshipping God, but rather they were worshipping the words of the Law."

The Jews believed that by keeping all the Law, THEY were NOT sinners, and therefore became self righteous in their own minds, thus excluding themselves from the Grace and forgiveness of God, through faith in Jesus.
 
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Earburner

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You say, "against born again Christians"? As opposed to whom?
Who are calling "born again Christians" heretical?
From my post #21, I also gave a few examples of understanding, whereby most professing Christians will balk at it, and even go to the point to persecute, just because it doesn't fit with the overall understanding of "church-ianity" by "the wisdom of men". 1 Cor. 2:5.

What is your understanding, compared to mine? Do you agree or disagree with what I said in post 21 on the following?
1. John the Baptist as Elijah.
2. The two witnesses of Rev. Is past.
3. The abomination that maketh desolate.
4. The Transfiguration.
5. How literists, have only the "religion" of worshipping words.
 

St. SteVen

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John the Baptist as Elijah
I know what you are referring to. (Matthew 11:14)
But what about this? Have all things been restored?

Mark 9:12 NIV
Jesus replied, “To be sure, Elijah does come first, and restores all things.
Why then is it written that the Son of Man must suffer much and be rejected?
2. The two witnesses of Rev. Is past.
If Revelation has already happened, some say it has, then yes.
What about the healing of the nations? Has that happened?
3. The abomination that maketh desolate.
Same as #2 above,
4. The Transfiguration.
That happened already. Apologies, I don't recall your point on that.
5. How literists, have only the "religion" of worshipping words.
Some for sure. Meaning SOME, but not all.
Some just reject a figurative reading.
 

MatthewG

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You asked about the nations, it says in Genesis all nations will be blessed because of the one whom would come.

“that blessing I bless thee, and multiplying I multiply thy seed as stars of the heavens, and as sand which [is] on the sea-shore; and thy seed doth possess the gate of his enemies; and blessed themselves in thy seed have all nations of the earth, because that thou hast hearkened to My voice.’”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭22‬:‭17‬-‭18‬ ‭YLT98‬‬

Galatians 3:7-9
7 Know then that it is ithose of faith who arejthe sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture,foreseeing that kGod would justify1 the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, l“In you shallall the nations be blessed.” 9 So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham,the man of faith.

Because of Abrhams obedience, and due to Jesus victory, all of the nations of the world from Africa, to Afganstan, are blessed.

Though through our nature, war still goes on, people can find hope and comfort in finding God, and having access through Him. (Spiritual healing through rebirth; submission to Yahava) I don't think there will ever be a pure christian nation on earth, but there is one ready for those who are believers that is in heaven found humbling oneself before God - and even if they have the chance to learn about his son, that also helps however the cost of being a disciple requires self-denial, and faith that God is, because its impossible otherwise.

He speaks to everyone by nature, and there also people out there who go share th Gospel, though the Gospel is founded in nature (death, burial, and resurrection), if one pays attention. (Of course we talked about that before, and have said its not - but if Gods Word produced all of the glory of the heavens, the glory of God is his Word whom was the Lord Jesus Christ He cant be lessened to a limit of our own minds, and He is not like us).

All the nations today are blessed. And the predestined nation that was divorced along time ago was destroyed in 70Ad/Ce.

From Africa, to canada, to afganstan, to india.

The God of all gods is made known, and all have now access due to the reconcilation of the world.

Praise God, i fear him. Praise Yahava for the Son, Yeshua, the messiah.

All the best.
 
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Earburner

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I know what you are referring to. (Matthew 11:14)
But what about this? Have all things been restored?

Mark 9:12 NIV
Jesus replied, “To be sure, Elijah does come first, and restores all things.
Why then is it written that the Son of Man must suffer much and be rejected?
God the Father's plan of restoration, is in regard to people repenting towards Him, through faith in Christ.
In a recent post on this site, I wrote about it under the thread title:
"Were the Two witnesses from the past?" (Christian Debate site- post #428- #443 (beginning on page 22).

I have re-posted it here, with the post numbers of that thread.

Part 1,2 and 3 by Earburner:
John and Jesus were a joint ministry. See also Zech. 4:14.
Elizabeth and Mary knew each other before their children were born.

Elisabeth and John the baptist:
John 1
[12] And when Zacharias saw him [the angel], he was troubled, and fear fell upon him.
[13] But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John.
[14] And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth.
[15] For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord [not among men], and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.
[16] And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God.
[17] And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

Mary and Jesus:
[34] Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
[35] And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
[36] And, behold, thy COUSIN Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.
[37] For with God nothing shall be impossible.
[38] And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.
[39] And Mary arose in those days, and went into the hill country with haste, into a city of Juda;
[40] And entered into the house of Zacharias, and saluted Elisabeth.
[41] And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:
[42] And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.
[43] And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
[44] For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.

If that isn't being "anointed" before and at birth, with the symbolic "oil" of the Holy Spirit of God (Zech. 4), then all of Christianity has gone blind to the truth.
Zech. 4
[11] Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?
[12] And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes EMPTY the golden OIL out of themselves? [Oil is symbolic of God's Holy Spirit].
[13] And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
[14] Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by [for] the LORD of the whole earth.

Part 2
Most Christians are assuming that the two witnesses haven't come yet, because by their mind of thinking, all the literal words have not been fulfilled yet. Therefore, by our perspective of time, many perceive chronologically, that the two witnesses MUST appear just before Jesus returns in Glory. However, the problem is, only God the Father knows precisely, of when to send Jesus to return and redeem His people.
From what I understand, Jesus has not returned in flaming fire yet, but He did appear as one of the "two witnesses", and indeed it was before "that great and dreadful Day".

As for the other witness, being John the Baptist, he fulfilled Malachi 4:5-6, as shown in Luke 1:16-17.
Malachi 4
[5] Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
[6] And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers [the act of restoration], lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.
Luke 1
(The holy angel of the Lord said to Zacharias):
[16] And many of the children of Israel shall he turn [cause repentance, to restore] to the Lord their God.
[17] And he shall go before him in the spirit and power [authority] of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord [God], who was in the mortal flesh of Jesus.

Please notice that the prophecy of Malachi 4:5-6 was NOT fulfilled verbatim** in Luke 1:16-17.
Is most all of Christianity calling the angel a liar?
Think it through WITH the mind of Christ, and not by the mind of your "natural man", or by the religious persuasion of "church-ianity".

**Note: the same holds true for the book of Revelation.

Part 3
(post #537)

Let me interject here for a moment, with a biblical and Godly point, that shall enhance your understanding.
James 5[17] Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.

Such a length of time as that, is equivalent to 1260 days, and/or 42 months, aka 3.5 years.
If I recall correctly, two people, in a joint ministry, of God's "anointing", was allotted an identical time period to accomplish the work assigned through them. One lost his head over it, and the other's Father, did assemble two sticks for Himself and his Son's fate [the cross]. 1 Kings 17:12.

After the completion of those two events, of 6 months and 3 years (1260 days), it surely did "rain" again, in fact now equally and everywhere on all the earth, it has "poured upon" the earth mightily, not with literal rain, but rather with the "rain" of God's Holy Spirit, on the Day of Pentecost, and is still ongoing today.
 
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Earburner

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If Revelation has already happened, some say it has, then yes.
What about the healing of the nations? Has that happened?
God thinks and speaks in the past, in the present, and in the future....all at the same time. Therefore, the book of Revelation is such a condition, of the thoughts of His mind.

I don't believe that all of Revelation is all future.
When we read Revelation, we must recognize by "the mind of Christ within us", what it is that is past, and even if it took place in Heaven or here on earth.
The same goes for right now, the present.

As for the future, if nothing comes to mind from the past or the present, literally or figuratively, then we can conclude that it is still prophetic in the time of the future. But, before concluding such, we must be sure that we are not choosing to be ignorant, as both Paul and Peter do often warn us of.
 

Earburner

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That happened already. Apologies, I don't recall your point on that.
In that post #21, this thread, I wrote:
We could go on with the transfiguration, and what the three disciples said they saw, of which is in direct contrast to what Jesus said of what they would see: John 1:51.
 
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Patrick1966

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Most Christians today believe that some of Jesus's teachings are heretical.
For instance, they don't believe that Jesus will "lose nothing". They believe that Jesus is a loser and is incapable of saving the lost and so he sends them to a place of forever punishment. In fact, the orthodoxy of Christianity is that Jesus FOREVER tortures most of the people who ever lived.

John 6:39
And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.

Was Jesus a heretic? Absolutely. @St. SteVen and I are routinely called heretics here for believing what Jesus said in John 6:39 along with many other verses.

heretic​

noun

her·e·tic ˈher-ə-ˌtik
ˈhe-rə-

Synonyms of heretic
1
religion : a person who differs in opinion from established religious dogma (see DOGMA sense 2)
especially : a baptized member of the Roman Catholic Church who refuses to acknowledge or accept a revealed truth
The church regards them as heretics.


2
: one who differs in opinion from an accepted belief or doctrine : NONCONFORMIST
 
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St. SteVen

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In that post #21, this thread, I wrote:
We could go on with the transfiguration, and what the three disciples said they saw, of which is in direct contrast to what Jesus said of what they would see: John 1:51.
Not sure why you would tie this to the Transfiguration. Could you explain? Thanks.
 

MatthewG

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Hello @St. SteVen,

Have you ever taken time to look at the accounts of the transfiguration?

You have Moses and Elijah show up - which Jesus states that John the baptist was Elijah, and Moses was a representation of the Law. They both disappear after the the fullness of whom Jesus was shown to John, Peter, and James(I think). Jesus expressed he had come to fulfill the law, he was also known a prophet. Leaving Jesus all alone in the vision with the three that was there - which makes him the one we look to be made right with God.

He was the TORAH, by the flesh, just as well as the Word of God within flesh, whom was God, name Emmanuel which is God with us. The very Son of God, and also Son of Man born of Mary, from the bloodline of David.

He fulfilled those laws, He never once disobeyed a commandment. That is why he is deemed the only Begotten son, after resurrection, and also the one that people are to hear. Because when he died on the cross, the TORAH (what made known sin - was done away with) - was completed, and nailed to the cross.

The Christ within the flesh left him, and that is why he cried "My God My God, why have you forsaken me", taking on the penalty of sin - willingly - then going on to sheol, preaching there, from paradise to prison and raised three days, just as Johan was spit up by the whale.

Jesus was a madman in the flesh - when looked at by the people who disbelieved him, his very own jewish brothers who were also born under the law.

The works that the Father did in and through him, was deemed - as though he was Satan, or Beezlebub. (Jesus was prayed "Not my will be done, but yours.")(His Father also taught him what to say.)
I wrote this in response to your question "For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John." - Matthew 11:13 NIV - Then what?
 

Earburner

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Not sure why you would tie this to the Transfiguration. Could you explain? Thanks.
Actually, when John 1:51 is entertained and examined first by our minds, we perceive that Jesus was wanting to provide a glimmer of hope and expectation, that they would see a reality of evidence that He whom they were following, was indeed the Messiah, backing up the words of John the baptist: "Behold, the Lamb of God, who taketh away the sin of the world".

From that point, the mind of Christ within us, if we allow Him, will reveal to us that what the disciples said they saw,
was NOT what Jesus said they WOULD see, which was Heaven would be opened, and the angels ascending and descending upon the Son of man.
Now, by that comparison, we must conclude, whose testimony of witness is the truth, of what was actually seen by the disciples.

Our human minds alone, being that of "the natural man", cannot effectively describe the visual Glory of God's heavenly kingdom and all that is in it, or from it. Hence, one of the reasons of why God Himself had to physically appear in mortal flesh, through His only begotten Son Jesus.

Iows, whose testimony is heretical? That of what Jesus said, or that of which the disciples said they saw. The majority of church-ianity believes the latter, of which they then corrupt their understanding of the two witnesses in Rev.
 
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